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Interesting website to visit -- 1917 proof 50c

BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
Here is a very interesting website I stumbled across that deals with 1917 proof half dollars.
You may find it interesting to visit this site.

http://www.seymourwampum.com/seymourwampum.com/Welcome.html
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"

Comments

  • DUIGUYDUIGUY Posts: 7,252 ✭✭✭
    linky
    “A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly."



    - Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,814 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wonder if any of those got into circulation, and if they'd be recognizable as proofs after wearing down to oh, say F or VF or so?


    Explore collections of lordmarcovan on CollecOnline, management, safe-keeping, sharing and valuation solution for art piece and collectibles.
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Both of those business strike WLH's are in third world country slabs and have been on eBay on and off for over the last decade.

    Breen's letters are worthless as Walter would write just about anything you wanted for a nominal fee.
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • commoncents05commoncents05 Posts: 10,096 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Both of those business strike WLH's are in third world country slabs and have been on eBay on and off for over the last decade.

    Breen's letters are worthless as Walter would write just about anything you wanted for a nominal fee. >>



    Same with the Lincolns and Buffs. Give me a break.

    -Paul
    Many Quality coins for sale at http://www.CommonCentsRareCoins.com
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Same with the Lincolns and Buffs. Give me a break." (from commoncents05)

    To commoncents05:

    Here is your break -- a photo of the cent

    image

    image

    An obvious matte proof whether you like it or not.

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To lordmarcoven -- (I wonder if any of those got into circulation, and if they'd be recognizable as proofs after wearing down to oh, say F or VF or so?)

    Any 1917 proof half dollar escaping into circulation that was worn down to Fine over Very Fine would probably not be indentiable as a proof. Surfaces characteristics would be completely obscurred and the appearance of thick wide rims would not be enough to call it a proof or specimen striking. Same comment would go for any proof coin from other years, the more wear and tear the less likely you could identify it as a proof, except for a coin that was struck as proof-only. Then in the case of these proof only years you will see grades such as
    PR-55, PR-40, and I have even seen grades like PR-04. These all used to be lumped together under the term Impaired Proof, regardless of the amount of wear or grade assigned.
    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image

    image

    MIGHT AS WELL POST THESE ALSO -- (This is not my coin -- comes from the aforementioned website)
    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • lasvegasteddylasvegasteddy Posts: 10,432 ✭✭✭
    the image of that cent is amazing...someone says that's a proof....
    "i myself don't have proof it's not...PERIOD"
    i can easily envision 17' proofs rolling around that we'd never know about
    i know 1916 was known for experimenting in halves too...look at those concept/patterns
    most pattern experimentation was all done with proof type processing
    myself i had a 17' half that i questioned it to be proof or not...it just didn't have standard circulation characteristics to it.
    so i still am in the...i bet they exist crowd
    everything in life is but merely on loan to us by our appreciation....lose your appreciation and see


  • lasvegasteddylasvegasteddy Posts: 10,432 ✭✭✭
    that nickel is quite the coin too
    i love how defined and detailed his hair is going all the way into the ribbon tie...very detailed
    everything in life is but merely on loan to us by our appreciation....lose your appreciation and see


  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To lasvegasteddy
    I have seen the 1917 nickel up close and personal (I do not own the coin) and believe me it "carries its own credentials". Others can whine and howl all they want about how this is not "something special", but again the phrase "it carries its own credentials" applies here. And we can all agree to disagree hopefully in a civil way!
    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To lordmarcoven -- (I wonder if any of those got into circulation, and if they'd be recognizable as proofs after wearing down to oh, say F or VF or so?)

    Here is an interesting Lincoln head cent -- 1916 -- that may be a circulated matte proof. The squared rims sure
    do give the impression that the coin might have been struck as a proof but it is worn to the point where it is tough to tell for sure. There are ways to document the matte proof Lincolns from various die scratches which I am not familiar with but these squared rims would really be unusual for a 1916 business strike cent
    (But I tend to think this was actually a business strike whereas the dealer thinks it was a proof strike)

    image
    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623 ✭
    you have to forgive me, why is it so obvious that these are proofs and not just hammered BS that people have gotten into worthless plastic?
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭✭✭
    to crypto79 -- the cent is not embedded in anyones plastic, and as I said, carries its own credentials.
    (and yes, I forgive you!)
    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • lasvegasteddylasvegasteddy Posts: 10,432 ✭✭✭
    ya know...
    "man's greatest gift is his open mind...upon closing it he becomes blind"

    facts and proof...this guy sat at national archives presenting us what he found in written record..."not breen scribbles"

    back in 82' to 84' i had a subscription to coinworld
    they had a set make the cover including a 1804 dollar as part of...what truly caught my attention was in this set was an "indian head cent proof struck in aluminum"
    "aluminum in that day was a rare metal"

    what truly was coined for higher ups...probably isn't for us laymen to know

    look at the 1964 sms sets found at the directors house upon passing

    congress and senate being given examples to approve with politics as they are and we're...what truly does exist...we'll never know about...you think a 63' kennedy might be held by non other than???

    what if any word ever got out about those "gold sackies" flown on a shuttle???

    i even recall an article clearly stating 2 proof 1966 nickels being handed to ol felix in 1966..."1966 proof nickels"
    everything in life is but merely on loan to us by our appreciation....lose your appreciation and see


  • Labelman87Labelman87 Posts: 610 ✭✭✭✭
    Buffnixx:

    Thank you for this information. I purchased two 1917 Halfs in 1975 (in my young 20's) and never knew what I had. The only thing that I did know was they were not regular issue. Some time in the 1980's I made what I thought were two tremendous trades for these coins. (Not so tremendous now.) Now I know that I had two matte specimens. I am now officially very, very sick.

    I wonder how many there were?

    ___________________
    Craig
    Craig


  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭✭✭
    to Labelman87
    Thanks for your comments- and I am assuming you no longer own these coins?
    I think there are a few floating around raw in people's collections unattributed, unknown, and unloved.
    Over time they surface one by one. As to how many were made I do not think too many. Like the cent pictured here there has never been a hint or a sniff of a second one. So this 1917 cent is kind of like the 1958 doubled die obverse cent (only 2 known right now I believe).
    buffnixx
    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here's one of the 17 WLH's...

    image
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To broadstruck -- this is one of the two 1917 halves in the website www.seymourwampum.com
    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The hub dies for Lincoln cents were strengthened in 1916. (This is why 1916 Lincolns are typically seen with a lot more detail than 1915 coins.) I have seen many 1916 cents with squared inner rims---what people see in the cybercoins.net photo is not unusual for 1916 circulation strikes. An entire roll of 64-up red coins hit the market in 2006. I bought one of the coins in 66 red in 2007, and was impressed with how well it faced up to a 1916 MPL regarding detail. There has been recurring speculation regarding the existence of 1917 MPLs; this is briefly discussed in Kevin Flynn's book on Lincoln Cent Matte Proofs. Get this book if you have coins that you think might be MPLs (it has good diagnostic photos). Some years ago, a purported 1917 MPL was carefully inspected by an expert (Blay), who pronounced it tooled.
    The issue of 1917 proofs has been debated ad nauseam for decades; this issue is hardly new. Until someone finds clear archival proof (NOT just Breen's opinion), it's not likely that 1917 proof designations will be accepted by the two major TPGs. Absent this, such assertions will not carry any weight in the marketplace.
    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>To broadstruck -- this is one of the two 1917 halves in the website www.seymourwampum.com >>



    Correct... And if it was nothing more then a business strike that's been messed with it wouldn't still today reside in a shyster slab.

    Again Breen's letters are not credible as for a nominal fee he'd state your possibly in his oppinion the Queen of England.

    As far as the 17 Buff it could very well just be an early die stage struck from freshly polished dies that was chemically altered.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • Labelman87Labelman87 Posts: 610 ✭✭✭✭
    Buffnixx:

    The coins were sold (traded) and looking at the 1916/1917 article they looked the same as the second set of the 1917 images.

    image

    _______________
    Craig
    Craig


  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 20,290 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've been looking for that picture of the cent. JT Stanton sent me a print of it long ago, and I haven't been able to find it. I'll have to read through the entire article sometime. Having glanced through it superficially, I see a lot of Breen references. These shouldn't be taken as gospel. It would also be nice if RWB were still a member here so he could comment, as his extensive research into this era of mint operations more than qualifies him to do so.
    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To messydesk --

    Is RWB no longer a member here???
    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 20,290 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He may lurk, but doesn't (i.e., can't) post.
    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To broadstruck --
    This is the text of the letter that goes with the picture that you have included herein. It was in an ebay auction a few years ago and I saved all the photos as well as the text of the letter. I have a folder of a dozen pictures of the coin along with the lettter. (Note -- this is not my coin nor did I ever own it.)
    ============================================================================
    This is the text of a letter of authentication written by the late Walter Breen which is for a 1917 Walking Liberty Half Dollar that that is currently for sale on eBay -- item number 320196806988 .
    (October 28, 2009)
    ...........................................................................................................................................................................
    The text of his letter follows:
    Box 352
    Berkley CA 94701
    August 17, 1991
    To Whom It May Concern:

    This certifies that I have examined the
    Accompanying coin and that I unhesitatingly
    Declare it genuine and as described below.
    It is a 1917 satin finish Proof half dollar.
    Finish is most like that on the first Peace
    dollar proofs of 1921, somewhat similar to 1909-10
    “Roman” finish gold. Both dies were polished,
    Especially obverse. Striking quality is far better
    than that on well struck unc. Business strikes,
    on all relief details - head, hand, drapery, leaves,
    Letters, sapling, feathers, even in areas normally
    Weak. “squared” rims. This is the first I have
    Seen in many years and possibly the 5th in all

    Respectfully submitted,
    (singed) WALTER BREEN
    '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • MFHMFH Posts: 11,720 ✭✭✭✭

    I noticed this Thread a few days ago - because of my interest in 1917 coins [ my Dad's birth year ].
    I found the link article extremely interested and my good friend Labelman87 just emailed me to check out
    this thread ... all he said is that he was very sick... I can see why. Having two of the Breen Specimen Strikes
    and selling them off must be killing him now.

    Hey, it happens, I once sold off a bunch of coins back in 1973, mostly my childhood collections, but it
    contained an almost complete 1891 Proof Set [ missing the Morgan ] and a 1907 Gold Date Set, which included
    the Eagle... I never realized that Eagle that had "dots" in front of and at the back of E-Pluribus-Unum were anything
    special - I thought it odd that they were there - but back then, I didn't collect gold coins - and had no idea, it was
    a Rolled Edge variety. Today, I am also still sick over that one.

    You'll never get over the sting of mistakes like these !!
    Mike Hayes
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !

    New Barber Purchases
  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Look at the date on that letter of authentication. Breen's life had spiraled WAY out of control---he had recurring legal problems, and was single again. Basically, he was broke and he issued numerous written authentication opinions to generate cash. About two months after the date on that letter/certificate, he was charged with multiple felony counts, and was later imprisoned. Few people, having some knowledge of Breen and this point in his life, have any faith in those authentications (or even ones he issued years before).
    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭✭✭
    to Sonorandesertrat --
    Thanks for the post,
    interesting &
    tragic at the same time.
    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here is a 1916 cent I once owned, a business strike, that rivals a matte proof as far as details on the
    bust of Lincoln. Note how rounded and indistinct the rims are, but that aside, the detail is incredible!
    Just one heck of a brown unc 1916 cent.

    image

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 20,290 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1915 and 1916 are probably among the best type coin dates for a Lincoln cent, as they are extremely well struck and often have "Matte PL" surfaces. The minor design tweaks of the first few years were all fresh in the hub, so the details are extremely sharp.
    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In 1999 Heritage Galleries sold an ANACS "MS64 presentation piece" for $7,820. Sale date was July 31, 1997. and then it was re auctioned in 2005 but did not sell. Here are the photos and also a link to an article about this very interesting 1917 half dollar.
    (Second auction date was February 25, 2005 where it did not meet its reserve)

    photo of obverse of coin (Feb 2005 -- Heritage Galleries)
    image

    photo of the reverse of coin (Feb 2005 -- Heritage Galleries)
    image

    If you would like to read about this coin from 2005, use the following 2 URL's

    http://www.icollector.com/1917-50C-Presentation-Piece-MS64-ANACS-R-Althou_i5135326

    http://coins.ha.com/common/search_results.php?Ntk=SI_Titles&amp;Ntt=1917 anacs ms64 presentation&amp;Nty=1&amp;N=51+790+231+314&amp;chkNotSold=0

    A very, very interesting coin to say the least!
    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    But not interesting enough to meet the reserve in 2005, when the coin market (and economy) was in much better shape than now. If a coin doesn't have all the bells and whistles today, it won't fetch a good price. Notice that the lot description in that auction did not indicate the controversy surrounding the coin.
    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To Sonorandesertrat ---- But don't forget it did sell for $7820 in 1999 but did not make its reserve in 2005 which was probably a lot higher. So what? A lot of coins do not sell because of unreasonable expectations with reserve bids.
    And ANACS is a highly regarded TPG. We are not talking about root-cellar of third world TPG's.
    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623 ✭


    << <i>To Sonorandesertrat ---- But don't forget it did sell for $7820 in 1999 but did not make its reserve in 2005 which was probably a lot higher. So what? A lot of coins do not sell because of unreasonable expectations with reserve bids.
    And ANACS is a highly regarded TPG. We are not talking about root-cellar of third world TPG's. >>



    You apparently are out of the loop a little bit, ANACS doesn't carry any weight any longer and is only still in business because of QVC. A large % that were quality in their plastic have been crossed and anything short on an extreme rarity will only bring a fraction of its value in one.
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To -- crypto79
    You are most certainly right and I was only being facious (spelling?) I am aware of the big food fight that ICG
    and ANACS had a few years ago.
    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
    ANACS did have cred back then that coin was auctioned. The SEGS and NTC can be safely ignored as evidence.

    Russ, NCNE
    eBay consignment sales | | Collectibles from Resco CCC
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭✭✭
    to broadstruck --

    "As far as the 17 Buff it could very well just be an early die stage struck from freshly polished dies that was chemically altered. "

    I think you mean state instead of stage in the above sentence?
    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"

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