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RYK
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<< <i>A GEM XF 64S? That has to be the first time i heard the term gem mixed in with an xf coin.... >>
I have heard Gem XF and Gem AU when referring to an ultra high end for the grade coin, especially a rare coin like the 64-S $10.
I wonder if Laura buys dreck, slaps on a CAC sticker and then sells a gem?
<< <i>It's sort of like the dealer who buys junk and sells antiques.
I wonder if Laura buys dreck, slaps on a CAC sticker and then sells a gem?
This post is really unfair and inappropriate.
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
higher, why not raise their bids enough to start coaxing the coins they need onto the market?
<< <i>A GEM XF 64S? That has to be the first time i heard the term gem mixed in with an xf coin.... >>
I used "Gem XF" to refer to this XF45 1851-D quarter eagle that I bought at last year's GNA Coin Show. The "Gem" designation was used because I thought that the coin was almost mark-free, which normally isn't the case for an XF coin (and is normally only found on Gem Unc coins).
BTW, getting back to Laura's report, (PCGS?) MS64 Saints at $55 over spot seems like a great deal to me.
<< <i> We think generic M64-66 $10 Indians, better $10 Indians, and MS66 Saints are the way to go for a short term play. Longer term, we LOVE GEM Gold Type sets. You can pick what YOU want grade wise or rarity wise. We still can't believe we witnessed MS64 Saints WHOLESALING for $1,790.00 while spot was $1,735.00 in Long Beach! There HAS to be a buying opportunity with generics still (if you believe gold will go higher)! >>
have a guess what I believe.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>It's sort of like the dealer who buys junk and sells antiques.
I wonder if Laura buys dreck, slaps on a CAC sticker and then sells a gem?
If her coins are dreck I'm afraid what you would call mine!
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Well, the only observation I would make is that if they are so convinced that the "good stuff" is headed
higher, why not raise their bids enough to start coaxing the coins they need onto the market? >>
Many dealers have been complaining about this problem. Raising bids helps, but the increased costs must be passed on.
Buyer price resistance then surfaces in many instances.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
While I am far from Legend's regular customer base I have managed to buy a few coins from them over the years.
My price range coins don't appear on their web site often but when they do I always know that they are top quaility.
Mike
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, the only observation I would make is that if they are so convinced that the "good stuff" is headed
higher, why not raise their bids enough to start coaxing the coins they need onto the market? >>
Many dealers have been complaining about this problem. Raising bids helps, but the increased costs must be passed on.
Buyer price resistance then surfaces in many instances. >>
...... indicating that the market is basically in equilibrium and where it goes from here is anybody's
guess, including theirs.
<< <i>That's a GREAT market REPORT... once again I enjoyed READING the various WORDS and understanding the CONCEPTS being DISCUSSED! >>
<< <i>Even though she gets a hard time publicly,
<< <i> We think generic M64-66 $10 Indians, better $10 Indians, and MS66 Saints are the way to go for a short term play. Longer term, we LOVE GEM Gold Type sets. You can pick what YOU want grade wise or rarity wise. We still can't believe we witnessed MS64 Saints WHOLESALING for $1,790.00 while spot was $1,735.00 in Long Beach! There HAS to be a buying opportunity with generics still (if you believe gold will go higher)! >>
have a guess what I believe. >>
Can I get in on this 64 $20 wholesaling at $1790?
Not kidding
<< <i>A GEM XF 64S? That has to be the first time i heard the term gem mixed in with an xf coin.... >>
Hey, I plucked a magnificent 1916-D dime in PCGS OGH G-04 at the Boston ANA.
I showed it to Laura who simply called it "Gem Good."
I submitted it to CAC directly and it got a gold CAC sticker.
<< <i>
<< <i>Even though she gets a hard time publicly,
<< <i> We think generic M64-66 $10 Indians, better $10 Indians, and MS66 Saints are the way to go for a short term play. Longer term, we LOVE GEM Gold Type sets. You can pick what YOU want grade wise or rarity wise. We still can't believe we witnessed MS64 Saints WHOLESALING for $1,790.00 while spot was $1,735.00 in Long Beach! There HAS to be a buying opportunity with generics still (if you believe gold will go higher)! >>
have a guess what I believe. >>
Can I get in on this 64 $20 wholesaling at $1790?
Not kidding
At long Beach MS 63 NGC / PCGS saints were selling for 8 bucks over melt. MS 64's could be found also.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Laura lurks lots (hey, that's alliterative).
Lance.
<< <i>Does it seem to you that she comments a lot about the "chat boards"?
Laura lurks lots (hey, that's alliterative).
Lance. >>
What's wrong with that? A surprising number of dealers are lurkers.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Well, the only observation I would make is that if they are so convinced that the "good stuff" is headed
higher, why not raise their bids enough to start coaxing the coins they need onto the market? >>
You would be flat out shocked at what Legend will pay for the right coin
<< <i>Thanks for posting. I like reading these reports.
Ditto
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, the only observation I would make is that if they are so convinced that the "good stuff" is headed
higher, why not raise their bids enough to start coaxing the coins they need onto the market? >>
You would be flat out shocked at what Legend will pay for the right coin >>
Yeah, well maybe you should call it the "Right Coin Report"...
<< <i>That's a GREAT market REPORT... once again I enjoyed READING the various WORDS and understanding the CONCEPTS being DISCUSSED! >>
"SHOCK and AWE"
<< <i>Coincidentally, there's a '64-S $10 in PCGS VF30 in the Schuyler Rumsey auction this Wednesday. Lot 1017. >>
It will be interesting to see what the coin sells for. There is not an auction appearance (per CoinFacts) since 2006 and five since 2002, in all grades.
1) the ms66 1799 dollar is indeed lowend for the grade but is not dreck because outside of the holder its worth substantially the same as it cost in the holder and is a very desirable coin that remains rare in the marketplace.
2) a top pop something that is lowend yet priced at ten times the undergrade would indeed be considered dreck as outside the holder its worth pennies on the dollar of what it cost. It may be a desirable coin but is basically indistinguishable from its peers a grade below and is readily replaceable.
<< <i>Well, the only observation I would make is that if they are so convinced that the "good stuff" is headed
higher, why not raise their bids enough to start coaxing the coins they need onto the market? >>
I agree with you, they should jack up their buy prices, and sit on them if the have to for a while. The now have TDN's checkbook to use. What is the down side to holding onto great coins for a while? Every month for years they have had record months so they should have to the funds to tie up the goods as needed.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>Lots of dealers (and collectors for that matter) have liquidity. Everyone is looking for value. When a dealer says they are having trouble buying, it means they are having trouble buying stuff they can make money on. >>
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Thanks,
Mark
<< <i>I have asked Laura to clarify what she means by a low end for the grade coin being dreck. In our discussions, it became clear to me that her concern is for a coin that is overgraded but derives the majority of its value from the holder. Here are two examples that clarify what to me is or isnt dreck:
1) the ms66 1799 dollar is indeed lowend for the grade but is not dreck because outside of the holder its worth substantially the same as it cost in the holder and is a very desirable coin that remains rare in the marketplace.
2) a top pop something that is lowend yet priced at ten times the undergrade would indeed be considered dreck as outside the holder its worth pennies on the dollar of what it cost. It may be a desirable coin but is basically indistinguishable from its peers a grade below and is readily replaceable. >>
Discover all unpredictable errors before they occur.
<< <i>
<< <i>Lots of dealers (and collectors for that matter) have liquidity. Everyone is looking for value. When a dealer says they are having trouble buying, it means they are having trouble buying stuff they can make money on. >>
OK, but the implication that prices MUST GO UP because buyers currently aren't willing to stretch may or may not
play out. When "everyone is looking for value", it's usually because they don't have a tremendous amount of
confidence that the overall market is in an uptrend. It's analogous to a so-called "stock picker's market".
<< <i>When "everyone is looking for value", it's usually because they don't have a tremendous amount of
confidence that the overall market is in an uptrend. It's analogous to a so-called "stock picker's market". >>
Disciplined buyers look for value all the time, regardless of the market.
Casual buyers can buy crap in an upmarket and still make money.
<< <i>
<< <i>When "everyone is looking for value", it's usually because they don't have a tremendous amount of
confidence that the overall market is in an uptrend. It's analogous to a so-called "stock picker's market". >>
Disciplined buyers look for value all the time, regardless of the market.
Casual buyers can buy crap in an upmarket and still make money. >>
You're oversimplifying things. When the market is in a strong updraft, everything can look "overvalued"
and "disciplined buyers" tend to end up with nothing. If one has conviction that the market is inexorably
heading higher, then it behooves one to overpay a little today because the object of desire will be
even more expensive in the future.
When people aren't stretching to dislodge coins, it tells me that they don't believe in their gut that the
market is about to get away from them.
<< <i>I have asked Laura to clarify what she means by a low end for the grade coin being dreck. In our discussions, it became clear to me that her concern is for a coin that is overgraded but derives the majority of its value from the holder. Here are two examples that clarify what to me is or isnt dreck:
. >>
I would agree with that and take it a step further; I get worried when any coin contrives most of its value off of its plastic and not the core encased collectable. Plastic should be an affirmation of value not a major source or multiplier. While obviously it might free up monies to compete for the coin when a pro is forced to go against an amateur who needs the reassurance which will drive up the cost, that fact is a raw problem free xf45 1875 10$ lib with good eye appeal should be worth about the same as a PCGS xf45 1875 10lib with a CAC sticker. The fact that it isn't hints to an investment bubble in our hobby as outsiders dump monies in while other investments are viewed as soft. IMO
<< <i>I have asked Laura to clarify what she means by a low end for the grade coin being dreck. In our discussions, it became clear to me that her concern is for a coin that is overgraded but derives the majority of its value from the holder. Here are two examples that clarify what to me is or isnt dreck:
1) the ms66 1799 dollar is indeed lowend for the grade but is not dreck because outside of the holder its worth substantially the same as it cost in the holder and is a very desirable coin that remains rare in the marketplace.
2) a top pop something that is lowend yet priced at ten times the undergrade would indeed be considered dreck as outside the holder its worth pennies on the dollar of what it cost. It may be a desirable coin but is basically indistinguishable from its peers a grade below and is readily replaceable. >>
TDN, I respect you and Legend but I'm not sure I can agree with Number 2. That sounds like the 1944 Walker in PCGS MS68 (only one) that went for $109,000. Now everyone talked about how that was an outrageous price for that coin, me included. But the fact that two wealthy collectors who both happen to be on the registry wanted the coin and bid it up doesn't make the coin "dreck" to me.
As long as we are going to use the word, I think of dreck as graded coins that are hurting the market as a whole. There may be a lot of different variations on this (AT, problem coins, clearly overgraded, FH designation for a coin that is about half a head) but in the end, if a graded coin is hurting the market for other coins, then it is a problem for all of us.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
I think it is not necessary to debate the definition of an arbitrary word "dreck". We have plenty of words whose precise meaning over which we can fight: life, adult, p0-rn (to name a few).
So let's make up a word that doesn't have baggage: hummana. We define "hummana" as meaning a collectible deriving a majority of its retail value from industry-accepted non-scientific qualitative testimony of said collectible.
Just because two collectors chased a "hummana" to new heights doesn't mean that the value will stand the test of second-guessing if the collectible will garner much less chase if offered without the industry-accepted testimony.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>
<< <i>I have asked Laura to clarify what she means by a low end for the grade coin being dreck. In our discussions, it became clear to me that her concern is for a coin that is overgraded but derives the majority of its value from the holder. Here are two examples that clarify what to me is or isnt dreck:
1) the ms66 1799 dollar is indeed lowend for the grade but is not dreck because outside of the holder its worth substantially the same as it cost in the holder and is a very desirable coin that remains rare in the marketplace.
2) a top pop something that is lowend yet priced at ten times the undergrade would indeed be considered dreck as outside the holder its worth pennies on the dollar of what it cost. It may be a desirable coin but is basically indistinguishable from its peers a grade below and is readily replaceable. >>
TDN, I respect you and Legend but I'm not sure I can agree with Number 2. That sounds like the 1944 Walker in PCGS MS68 (only one) that went for $109,000. Now everyone talked about how that was an outrageous price for that coin, me included. But the fact that two wealthy collectors who both happen to be on the registry wanted the coin and bid it up doesn't make the coin "dreck" to me.
As long as we are going to use the word, I think of dreck as graded coins that are hurting the market as a whole. There may be a lot of different variations on this (AT, problem coins, clearly overgraded, FH designation for a coin that is about half a head) but in the end, if a graded coin is hurting the market for other coins, then it is a problem for all of us. >>
I'll join here to outline what I think is the nuance of the word 'dreck' as it applies to TDN's definition part (2). On the one hand, you have the 44 in 68 mentioned by Jeff. I, like Jeff, see that coin not as dreck - IMHO it was not weak for the grade. It had the nice blues, showed solid originality and preservation. Two whales went after it, and (IMHO) the final hammer was far in excess of the coin's real value. The coin was/is wonderful, and I would have been happy to have it in my collection (albeit for one sixth the price it achieved).
Now, let's talk about a coin that fits TDN's (2) definition above. It is the sole 35-D in 66+. This coin has wonderful clear fields and nice luster and brightness. The head is very, VERY, weak, though. It (IMHO) has no business as the top pop single 66+. It derives a lot of its value from the holder, and is 'basically indistinguishable from its peers a grade below'. I concede that my example is only one half a point from the next grade below - not a full point like the 44.
EDIT: I'll cite another example that I feel fits TDN's (2) above: The recent 34-S in 67 at Heritage. I cannot see (with the usual caveats - I'm not a professional grader/ never saw the coin in hand) how this coin merits the 67 grade. Although the coin went for five figures, the coin is weak for the grade IMHO. Even though I really long for a 34-S in 67, it was an easy decision to pass on this example. '....a desirable coin but is basically indistinguishable from its peers a grade below and is readily replaceable.' In fact, my 34-S in 66 is better looking and has a stronger strike.
I fully agree with Jeff's second paragraph.
A reputation for a quick check for the right coin at a fair price is better than a strong bid
<< <i>It's sort of like the dealer who buys junk and sells antiques.
I wonder if Laura buys dreck, slaps on a CAC sticker and then sells a gem?
brought some Morgan DMPLs from legend .. top of the line quality
I will pay a minimum of $50k above the highest published bid for any pcgs/cac gem bust or flowing hair dollar. Or ngc/cac where i agree with the grade. And i will pay a $10k referral fee to anyone who initiates the deal. Go to it
I highly doubt there will be any takers - the coins are in strong hands and a higher bid is not the tool to break them loose. Proof is in the pudding.
Sort of a different kettle of fish than coins a dealer is looking to resell, I'd say.
<< <i>TDN, sounds to me like you are making an offer for coins you'd like to add to your collection.
Sort of a different kettle of fish than coins a dealer is looking to resell, I'd say. >>
Not at all - don't you think that Legend has at least a handful of other collectors just like me and could broker the same sort of deal with most any significant coin? Besides - you don't address the main point.
I repeat - its not about the bids - its about opportunity.
"...Collectors don't decide to sell when they can make 20% or 30% instead of 10%, they sell because they have to or want to.." I totally agree with TDN regarding this point.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]