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Two huge, under-the-radar rare gold collections sold in first two months
RYK
Posts: 35,799 ✭✭✭✭✭
For the collector of circulated rare date and even mid-grade generic gold, it has been a very interesting year, so far. First, the Helem collection sold at the Goldberg sale. This was an expansive collection of mostly collector grade coins, strong especially in the lower denominations. Next week, less than a month following the Helem collection sale, the Littlejohn collection will be offered at auction by the philatelic auction house, Schuyler J. Rumsey.
The Littlejohn collection includes some important rarities (54-S QE is probably the headliner, but also includes a 61-S Paquet $20, 48 CAL QE, Stella, 61-D $1 and $5, and many of the better date $5's and $10's that are not often seen. Apparently, the collector was a "hole filler", and the quality is all over the place (not so much in the best place
).
What is interesting about both of these multi-million dollar collections is that they were completely under the numismatic radar screen. No mainstream dealers have worked with either of the collectors, and it is possible or even likely that the collections were assembled a numismatic generation ago (or even longer for the Helem collection). One has to wonder how many more of these are out there sitting in bank vaults, undisturbed by uninterested heirs who either do not need the money or do not know what the coins are worth.
As it turns out, contrary to what I said in an earlier thread and to others privately, I plan to have some bids in place for the sale.
The Littlejohn collection includes some important rarities (54-S QE is probably the headliner, but also includes a 61-S Paquet $20, 48 CAL QE, Stella, 61-D $1 and $5, and many of the better date $5's and $10's that are not often seen. Apparently, the collector was a "hole filler", and the quality is all over the place (not so much in the best place
).What is interesting about both of these multi-million dollar collections is that they were completely under the numismatic radar screen. No mainstream dealers have worked with either of the collectors, and it is possible or even likely that the collections were assembled a numismatic generation ago (or even longer for the Helem collection). One has to wonder how many more of these are out there sitting in bank vaults, undisturbed by uninterested heirs who either do not need the money or do not know what the coins are worth.
As it turns out, contrary to what I said in an earlier thread and to others privately, I plan to have some bids in place for the sale.
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Good luck on your bids.
Many are in these "unknown" collections and many have been hoarded. I have said in previous posts that I believe the effect of hoarding is much greater than most realize.
A fair number of coins are still raw. They've got this 1861 Type I (old) Reverse identified as Type II (new).
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Are you in the running?
<< <i>Thanks for the heads up. Littlejohn was certainly a "hole filler" but he filled a big one with the 54-S $2.50.
Are you in the running?
Too rich for me. I'd rather spend that kind of money on more dirty southern gold.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>
<< <i>Thanks for the heads up. Littlejohn was certainly a "hole filler" but he filled a big one with the 54-S $2.50.
Are you in the running?
Too rich for me. I'd rather spend that kind of money on more dirty southern gold. >>
Cool!
<< <i>Are these collectons being sold raw? >>
Helem was PCGS-graded with a healthy number of Genuines and a smattering of raw.
Littlejohn is also PCGS graded with a lot more Gens and raw.
Have Stack's and Heritage fallen off the map
<< <i>And there was that million+ auction at a mid-range auction house in Maryland a few weeks ago.
Have Stack's and Heritage fallen off the map
It seems like the people that were selling all three collections you mentioned not only did not know what they had, but where to go with them.
That said, after hearing what happened at the maryland auction- perhaps the right move was how it played out
<< <i>This is really interesting. This is an impressive collection from the point view of breadth. I would love to see it in person. There might be some cool one to pick up. The $2.5 1842 and 1845-O definately pique my interest among many others. I would want someone to view in person however. >>
I suspect that our common friend has seen the coins in person.
<< <i>I suspect that our common friend has seen the coins in person. >>
I have just placed a last minute call but am waiting to hear back.
Cashback from Mr. Rebates
Some of the commons are going for below melt!
<< <i>The prices seem to me to be insanely high. Many details graded coins closing (or above) the problem free PCGS price guide price! >>
Some of these may grade next time.
The prices for the rare stuff is strong but wait until they hit the open market with 25% mark ups over night
Did anyone here view the better date gold dollars? Were they gorgeous coins that were way undergraded?
I suspect people got caught up in "fresh" material coming to the market and paid a premium.
<< <i>My gift to the masses
The prices for the rare stuff is strong but wait until they hit the open market with 25% mark ups over night >>
It's hard to get away with that any longer. You gotta wait and then upcross them to NGC and THEN you can mark them up...even more.
Edit: My three targets were acquired, including the coin that Doug called the nicest southern gold coin in the collection.
Edit again: Two of the three were in CoinFacts:
I almost bought the 1876-s $5 as well; it's a remarkably uncommon coin, but wasn't thrilled with the coin itself.
Now I can regret the non-purchases for a while
<< <i>Had my eye on the 1863 and 1865 $5's but they both went for more than my maximum. Feel they are under-the-radar coins that probably should be worth more than their final prices. Disappointing, but that's why you set a mental maximum.
I almost bought the 1876-s $5 as well; it's a remarkably uncommon coin, but wasn't thrilled with the coin itself.
Now I can regret the non-purchases for a while
I also ended up with the 65-S. Per the photo, and the accounts of Doug and a fellow forum member, it was disgustingly dirty.
The 55-D $12k, for a VF?
Unfortunately, I believe that is where the market is now for the 55-D $1.
Overall, a very eclectic collection.
Can you give some specifics??
<< <i>Just have to say- some of the prices realized so far are insane.
Can you give some specifics?? >>
I looked at the PRs from yesterday. The money was mostly reasonable retail. The 61-D $1 was high, but maybe lot viewers saw it as an upgrade candidate. The 54-S QE went for a little less than I expected. I am still going through the results.
That question wasn't for you.
<< <i>RYK;
That question wasn't for you.
Are you implying that I am insane?
<< <i>Just have to say- some of the prices realized so far are insane.
Can you give some specifics?? >>
A few mid-grade scare date CC double eagles that I was watching went for more than expected. Several examples are below.
1872-CC $20 Liberty. PCGS graded EF-45. Realized: $9,000
1873-CC $20 Liberty. PCGS graded EF-45. Realized: $8,000
1879-CC $20 Liberty. PCGS graded EF-40. Realized: $7,500
1885-CC $20 Liberty. PCGS graded EF-40. Realized: $6,250
Lot 664, 1862-S $5 XF45, $8000. Really? That's the top of retail, before the vig. The winner is almost certainly banking on a crackout win.
Lot 345, the mother of all quarter eagles (1854-S in F12), $150k...
Lot 373, a very nice 1861-S $2 1/2 AU55, $4500. Also north of full retail before BP.
Lot 949, 1841-O $10 XF40, $13500.
Lot 954, 1843 $10, XF45... this is almost a widget... $1800!
Lot 957, 1843-O $10, AU50. Granted this coin is one of the few with a sharp strike, but still it's a common date. $3250!
Lot 962, 1846 $10, AU50. Granted one of the harder dates in the 1840's Philly eagles (but close), $5000!
Lot 996, which was a *raw* 1856-S $10, went for $1800 before BP. Now that's a gambler.
Lot 1004, 1858-S $10, VF35, $2600
Lot 1017, 1864-S $10, VF30, $30000 (sigh)
Lot 1050, 1876-S $10, VF35, $2400 (actually this one might have been a good deal)
1872-CC $20 Liberty. PCGS graded EF-45. Realized: $9,000 - EF40 $6750, AU55 $19,000
1873-CC $20 Liberty. PCGS graded EF-45. Realized: $8,000 - EF40 $7500, AU55 $16,500
1879-CC $20 Liberty. PCGS graded EF-40. Realized: $7,500 - EF40 $6500, AU55 $20,000
1885-CC $20 Liberty. PCGS graded EF-40. Realized: $6,250 - EF40 $6000, AU55 $13,000
So, were they nice for the grade?? Upgrades?? What's the auction history for each?? How do the coins that have appeared recently compare? How long has it been since a comparable coin appeared?? Is the strike and luster comparable?? NGC vs PCGS?? In person, were they closer to 40 or 55?
It's easy to say the prices were strong - but give us the analysis that helps us to believe you.
seller netted less than melt.
What was most interesting to me was the low premium over melt on cleaned, unslabbed, uncommon coins such as no-motto $10 Libs.
<< <i>What was most interesting to me was the low premium over melt on cleaned, unslabbed, uncommon coins such as no-motto $10 Libs. >>
If they were cleaned, unsslabbed and uncommon, why would you expect a higher premium to melt? Are $10 libs worth paying over melt?
Cashback from Mr. Rebates
went for $750 + 15%. It was described as VF and not noted as cleaned.
Other coins I have never seen on Ebay are 1902, 1905, and 1906 Double Eagles. I recall that raw (AU not cleaned) examples of all 3 dates
sold around melt (including the 15%). These are rare coins. The 1902 mintage is less than 32000. A nice AU example (not noted as cleaned) went for
$1500 +15% totals $1725 or $1783/oz. Coins dated 1905 and 1906 went for the same price in AU.
I spoke with a rare date gold expert at length today, about the sale, and his opinion was that the collection was overall very low in quality. There were, however, some better coins mixed in. He plans to write a blog on the topic, and I will link it to this thread.
Rumsey was easy to deal with and quick to respond to the one email I sent them.
Three years ago common, NGC/PCGS slabbed MS62 double eagles had a $500 premium to the $980 gold price. Since then, they have done
well because of the increase in the price of gold, but lost their numismatic value. Even raw double eagles had a $200+ premium.
When I see coins like the 1902, 1905, 1906 AU double eagles I get excited. Others are looking at other coins.
The catalog picture quality was below what we have come to expect from a major coin auction. Hearing now that the quality was below average makes me feel a little better about not pushing my bids higher on any of the lots.
I guess the people in attendance didn't miss anything, as there were strong prices for many items, but I believe the family/firm should have invested in a superior photographer to image the lots, for the sake of the internet bidding.