1821 Quarter - Genuine or Fake?

RichieURich

Here it is

lordmarcovan

If it's a fake, it's a sophisticated enough fake to fool me. Looks OK to me, I suppose?

Dang, I hate eBay's picture hosting.

braddick

I vote, "REAL".

CaptHenway

I suspect that authenticity is not the issue.......

mingot

<< <i>I suspect that authenticity is not the issue....... >>

RichieURich

<< <i>I suspect that authenticity is not the issue....... >>



???

Would it help if I said that the date doesn't match the date of any 1821 variety in the Tompkins book Early United States Quarters 1796 - 1838?

coinkid855

Real, but not original.



-Paul

STONE

The "82" in the date looks odd. I don't have my book to check each DM,
but I would be more inclined to call it real and somehow the camera/photo
has distorted the date. Can't explain it, just gut feeling. If the seller didn't
have a return policy I wouldn't think of touching it!

rhedden

I'm thinking it's fake. The reverse letters are too thin and have the look of that 1847 half dollar I almost bought a few weeks back. The seller's photos are small and blurry for a reason, whatever the case may be. And the reason is not likely anything to do with honesty or good business ethics, knowing eBay.

Baley

the seller's other auctioned coins look real enough, including some higher grade early stuff.

If that 1821 quarter is fake, it's a well done one. The date does look funny. Why do the obverse and reverse photos look so different? Lots of questions.

Billet7

I know who the dealer is, I doubt he would knowingly carry a fake coin, I'll have to look into it more.

The reverse seems right, it's got the broken talon like it should.

1Bustcollector

It's the real McCoy! I saw it in person...............

rhedden

After getting fooled by that 1847 half, I am now paranoid beyond belief. Ask the seller to send large, crisp photos of the coin so we can have a better look.

1Bustcollector

There is something REAL special and interesting about this coin...................I emailed the seller-I hope he responds to me as I can assist. I don't have permission yet but was going to write an article about this. Heads up Quarter guys!

rec78

I vote "I don't know"-- Too difficult to tell from the poor photos. Some of the stars look awful strange-especially star nos.1-2-11-12. The last three digits of the date do not seem right. The lettering on the reverse seems inconsistent. Surfaces are not original. It is a coin that I would not buy real or not. If it is not in the book than it is probably a fake.

Bob

dcarr

Genuine, but scrubbed.

1Bustcollector

I agree with Dcarr, but let's wait to talk about something different in a bit. Not big news but new news.

hchcoin

Well the counter at the bottom of the page is sure going up fast after this thread

1Bustcollector

I have not heard from the seller.........I left my phone number also.

Baley

Sometimes, when one cannot find the coin in the variety book, it's a newly discovered die... after all these years... could it be??

coin22lover

<< <i>

<< <i>I suspect that authenticity is not the issue....... >>



???

Would it help if I said that the date doesn't match the date of any 1821 variety in the Tompkins book Early United States Quarters 1796 - 1838? >>




It looks to me like the B5 R4+ ... no?

Billet7

If Rich thought it was a new variety it would have been sold already. Just a thought.

I was thinking it looked like a B-5 also. Perhaps the 8 is a little larger, but hard to tell, could be photographic distortion as well.

coin22lover

The Thompkin's book also says that there are 2 cast copper counterfeits known of the B5 specifically.....could it be the 3rd?

Billet7

No way that's a cast! If so, it's got to be the best one ever made! Course the pics aren't all that great, so they might be hiding any evidence.

Billet7

We ever decide what this is?

coin22lover

I decided it's a B5, but I'm not sure what "we" decided. Someone should buy the dang thing and see; there's a 7 day return option. If it turns out to be a new variety, my "suggestion fee" will be 25%

pmac

Why would a dealer want to sell this or any other high-end (and I know that is a relative term) coin without it being graded by a TPG? He might be a good grader, but many customers are not and trust our host or ATS for their opinion. JMHO

Billet7

I doubt it will certify, and few smaller dealers are concerned with getting a little bit extra cash for the effort of certification...especially with the high chance of bodybagging.

AUandAG

I don't know about this coin but the seller has an 1877cc dime up for $795. In it's condition
it's worth just a fraction of that, perhaps $30?

bob

ziggy29

I would not buy this raw, period. If I were really interested in this coin and I felt fairly confident about its grade, I'd be inclined to offer the seller $200 above the asking price if they get it authenticated via Express submission (and even put up the $200 as "earnest money" up front), but that I wouldn't buy it raw. If they declined, I'd pass. And if we made the deal, any of that $200 above and beyond the cost of submission, insurance and shipping would be pure profit to them.

1Bustcollector

OMG, did this get out of hand! It is not a new die marriage.

I'm afraid my email and phone service has been giving me quite a few issues so I could not respond. Please take a breather everyone-I feel this is my fault that I commented "new news," it concerned the die line on this 1821 B-5, actually I thought it might be pretty heavy at that and once I was able to download my pics I was going to post them here for comments.....(my service dropped out twice since writing this). I should be able to do so hopefully later on or tomorrow. Btw, what lead the thought of this being a fake anyway?
Anyone own examples with or without this die line?

1Bustcollector

Finally, here are my attached pics that I've personally taken at the Long Beach convention show of the currently listed ebay coin. It looks a lot better here. Without going into the very, very long and complete story............... I took this picture thinking this coin was purchased and set aside but I later learned it wasn't. Anyway, what do you see? A die line.............what else?

No, it's not a new die marriage-nothing like that. Please read on....

As it turns out, last week or so, while at Long Beach (sharing a dealer's table) I snapped a picture of my friends quarter. He had it sitting aside next to some other items behind his case. What I did not know is this quarter was something he had a possible interest in purchasing from the "seller" and as it turned out, that quarter was not purchased. So, I have this photo of an 1821 B-5 with a fairly heavy "die line" on the reverse. I must say, I cannot remember studying this die marriage enough to verify if all known examples have this marking or not. My guess is all have the marker. Tompkins does mention this in his book under reverse descriptions with no other comments.

Unfortunately, we did not mention anything about this in our book.

Now, let's talk about this thread...but please keep in mind, I think I may have jumped ahead of myself thinking there might be something new here-maybe. I planned to write an article concerning this die marriage but only if it had some value (after more research that is). I was curious if this really is an engraver die line or something else. It just seems this engraver die line appeared kinda heavy, not like an 1824 "lower arrowhead die line" but, more like the 1820 B-2, B-5 and 1821 B-4 those die lines ARE heavier. In any event, I also noticed the left end of the upper scroll has remnants of other work. I don't think this is mentioned in any of the quarter books about the "possibility to re-engrave" this portion to strenghten the scroll (missing top left corner).

Later, if warranted, I can take some the time to post pictures of all the other dates and die marriages to compare this portion of the scroll with the 1821 B-5. I have to say, this has captured a tiny bit of my interest.


So, I thought I would post my pictures and let you be the researcher and hopefully take this further. Would you call this a die line? Sure looks like it. Did it happen trying to perform repair work? Does anyone personally own a high grade example-without this marker? In any event, this is THAT coin which is currently for sale on eBay. It really has very nice detail on both the obverse and reverse. I am not so sure if it has a heavy cleaning but I don't think it would slab. You be the judge.

I await your comments...............

1TwoBits

I got out my mint state 1821 B-5 for comparison. I see the line in question on my example, but it doesn't seem as thick as the one pictured above. The line seems thinner to me on my example. Could it be a die crack? Was there some re-work done in that area of the upper left end of the Scroll as Rory suggests, causing the mark?

Who else has a 1821 B-5 and can add some more observations? Does anyone own an example with NO line from the upper left Scroll to the D?

1TwoBits

1Bustcollector

I will post 1TwoBits 1821 B-5 later. His apears to be a bit less faint........

Here are some other examples. Comments so far?

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