A question for those among us who search 1960's Proof Sets.

keets

I was looking through some stuff this evening and was reminded how seldom I have found intact 1960-1970 Proof Sets with multiple Deep Cameo coins(we won't even start talking about the 1950-1959 Sets!!). On occasion I've come across a Capital Plastic Set with multiple coins, but OGP Sets seem an anomoly. I have a few that I haven't broken apart, and even have a Set or two from the late 60's with three coins which is truly exceptional. My question to fellow searches is this-----What do you think is the minimum number of intact Proof Sets from 1960-1970 inclusive required to have a complete Set of legitimate Deep Cameo coins, based on your own searching?? With a total of 55 coins I'm thinking somewhere in the 40's would be a real feat.

Thanks for you indulgence.

Al H.

lasvegasteddy

not much experience with this as a subject but my wag is 3 to 4 sets will bear one complete on good dealings
2 sets or less to have a full set of dcams....you're hitting homeruns

SanctionII

Keets:

Interesting question regarding true DCAM coins [not CAM] in OGP sets.

Here is my take:

1960-1964 Silver Proof Sets -

If you were VERY lucky it would take you a minimum of looking through hundreds of proof sets to simply find 1 DCAM coin of any denomination from these years. 1963 and 1964 would give you the best chance of finding DCAMS. 1960, 1961 and 1962 would be much more difficult years to find DCAMs, especially the minors. To find a single DCAM of each denomination for these years would take over thousand of proof sets [probably more].

I have looked for about 10 years for raw CAM and DCAM coins in OGP and aftermarket holders, plus raw singles. I have found very few DCAM coins for 1960-1964


1965-1967 SMS Sets -

For some dates DCAM examples are extremely rare and may even not exist. DCAM nickels are probably the easiest. Cents, clad dimes and clad quarters are almost impossible to find. Halves are also hard to find but probably easier than the cents, dimes and quarters.

For each year you would have to look at thousands of sets to find even one DCAM coin.


1968-1970 Proof Sets -

DCAM cents, nickels and halves are easiest. Dime and quarters are extremely hard to find. For each year you would have to look at hundreds, if not thousands of sets to find a DCAM of each denomination.


My $0.02.

MadMarty

I totally agree with SanctionII's post. Like a 65 SMS Lincoln is very hard in CAM, let alone in DCAM.

SanctionII

The 1970 proof set pictured by Keets in this thread is a good example of a very hard to find proof set from 1968-1970. If the nickel and the half have two sided frost at a DCAM level [I do not think the reverse of the nickel pictured separately by Keets would be DCAM, the frost is not thick/heavy enough] the set would be very PQ [since it would have two DCAM coins]. However, the cent, dime and quarter are not even close. The frost on the obverse of the quarter is not DCAM and likely it is brilliant on the reverse. The clad dimes and quarters from 68-70 are rarely found in CAM. DCAM examples of these two coins are mostly impossible to find.

ModCrewman

Don't know how I missed this one over the weekend.

I agree with Sanction's evaluation overall as to what it takes to find the sets, as for having multiple in a single set, assuming 1968-70 would be possible to have multiple true DCAM's, and potentially a few early 60's, and no chance of SMS sets having multiples. I think the best possible number of sets (leaving them in the OGP) would likely fall in the upper 40's...such as 48-49.

I've found sets with multiple coins with a shot at DCAM in the 68-70 years. This weekend I actually bought a partial 1964 set (missing 1/2 dollar) that had a potentially DCAM dime with a solid CAM cent...if the half had been a monster, perhaps this was a gem set with 3 high quality CAM/DCAM candidates.

SanctionII

I remember Don Heath posting a picture of a 1965 SMS set in OGP that had four out of five coins being Cameo, and the fifth coin was close to Cameo. Maybe he will post it again. It was an awesome set.

Spudmasher

On occassion I have a dealer where I live put out CAMS, and DCAMS halves and mark frosted on the 2X2. Last week when I was at
the shop he put a 1954 which is undoubtably cameo on both sides. I purchased for $45.00. Last year he did the same with a 1955 which I
ended up getting in a PCGS PF66 cameo holder. He doesn't care if they are cameo or not.
Before the ANA in Baltimore in 1988 a fellow co-worker gave me two sealed boxes of 1961/1962 proof sets to sell. Needless to say I opened everyone of them, and not 1 cameo coin of any type in the whole lot.

keets

For each year you would have to look at thousands of sets to find even one DCAM coin.

just for clarity, i'm not wondering how many sets would have to be looked, i'm wondering about sets with actual DCAM's you had purchased to assemble all the five coins from 1960-1970 inclusive. using my pictured 1970 set and assuming that, yes, all three coins are DCAM, then you'd have three of the 55 coins needed with one representative set.

i hope that helps to clarify what i was thinking about.

.........................now, Kevin, i'm pretty sure that the three coins are DCAM's regarding frost and mirrors. the Quarter is a bit deceiving because it's tilted away from bottm to top, but i digress.

SanctionII

Keets.

Thanks for clarifying your question. I misread/misunderstood it.

I have not been able to find DCAM examples of each of the five coins in the Proof and SMS sets covering 1960-1970. Thus I can not speak from first hand knowledge about how many sets it actually took me to assemble DCAM examples of the 55 coins [since I have not done it yet and likely never will be able to].

However, if one assumes that sets are out there in the public domain that you can get your hands on which do, collectively, contain DCAM examples of all 55 coins, your question is interesting.

The absolute minimum number of sets required would be 11 [each set containing 5 DCAMS] and the maximum number of sets would be 55 [each set containing 1 DCAM].

Under your hypothetical, the actual number of sets containing the required 55 DCAM coins would, IMO, be 44 sets.

I will guess that for 1968-1970 sets you could find that there exists three sets with 3 DCAM coins [most likely the cent, nickel and half] in them so that makes a total of 9 of the 55 coins; for the 1960-1964 sets you could find that there exists 1 set with 3 DCAM coins and three sets with 2 DCAM coins in them so that makes a total of 9 of the 55 coins; for the 65-67 SMS sets there are no sets with multiple DCAMS; thus 18 of the required 55 coins are in 7 sets and the other required 37 coins are in single sets giving a grand total of 44 sets needed.

I have never found any pre 1968 sets with multiple DCAM coins. For 1968-1970 I have seen a few sets that have 2 DCAM coins.

Keets is the 1970 set that you pictured really one that has 3 DCAMS? To me the reverse of the nickel looks CAM [frost is too light] and the frost on the obverse of the quarter is too light for DCAM.

keets

first things first-----the Nickel in the OP isn't the coin in the Set, i included it because i'm a NickelHead and apologize for the understandable confusion. it's a seperate coin(the Set is still intact) and it graded PR66DCAM during one of the periods about 4-5 years ago when what was coming out of the factory just had me confused grade-wise though not designation-wise. i got quite a few 66's on stellar coins during that time which were indistinguishable from 68-69 coins. to their credit, PCGS has always been very, very tough on 1970-71 Jeffersons. i don't know why.

your "44 Sets" seems reasonable though SMS minors would be and remain impossible for me to find to complete such a set. almost as hard is 1971, but that's not included. i haven't submitted a coin in almost three years, but prior to that stretch of time i was able to get PR69CAM Dime and Quarters from 1969 and 1970. i think that the coins are graded way too strictly, as though the expectation is for them to look like a typical silver issue. perhaps the Clad coins from 1965-1971 should be in a Class all by themselves.

with all that said, i think the Dimes are the most difficult, at least they have been for me. that denomination from the SMS years, 1968 and 1970 seem even harder than the Cents.

keets

OK, i found close-up pictures of the Nickel and Quarter from the OP 1970 Proof Set. evidentally i didn't take a close-up of the Half-Dollar but i figure you'll agree that those are the easiest denomination from the entire decade.

ModCrewman

I've had good luck on the dimes of the 68-70 era:







Nickels too:





And this is one of my favorites:

Cameonut

Hmmm,
Lots of questions to try to answer and so little "data"....

Anyway, these days I think the answer to the original question (how many sets to get a set of dcams from 1960-1970?) - mid 40's to 50 is about right.

Finding any dcams "in the wild" is getting harder and harder - and finding more than one in a set is getting really hard.

Now I have seen sets that contain multiple dcams - they are few and far between, but they do exist (or at least they did exist before the cameos were cut out of them). I haven't seen one of these "multiple sets" in several years - and Sanction's rundown by year matches my experience as well.

Bottom line - cameos are getting harder and harder to find - especially high grade dcams.

keets

Don, that Quarter and the '68 Dime look to be stellar coins. to the original question, i wonder how many of us have been victims of ourselves and passed on coins which wouldn't have graded high even though they were DCAM's??

ModCrewman

It scares me at times to wonder how many PR 68's, PR 69's or God forbid PR 70's I've stuck back in the envelope and have thrown in the "Pass" pile. For that matter, I've not been very good at looking for varieties (except the 1964 AH and 1956 Type I half dollars) and have certainly passed on many of those as well.

My only solace in any of that is that I can't regret "missing" those coins outside my core collecting interest any more than I can regret missing out on a fabulous bust half in a case. It's nearly impossible in my opinion to look at and evaluate them all.

The challenge of being a cameo hunter is that nearly every show I've been to, has taken me the entire time I have available to go through the proof sets looking for cameos that it's actually a pretty high speed affair in most instances.

cladking

<< <i>It scares me at times to wonder how many PR 68's, PR 69's or God forbid PR 70's I've stuck back in the envelope and have thrown in the "Pass" pile. For that matter, I've not been very good at looking for varieties (except the 1964 AH and 1956 Type I half dollars) and have certainly passed on many of those as well.

My only solace in any of that is that I can't regret "missing" those coins outside my core collecting interest any more than I can regret missing out on a fabulous bust half in a case. It's nearly impossible in my opinion to look at and evaluate them all.

The challenge of being a cameo hunter is that nearly every show I've been to, has taken me the entire time I have available to go through the proof sets looking for cameos that it's actually a pretty high speed affair in most instances. >>



With the plastic sleeves the best way to check sets is to remove all the sets
from the packaging and then check them one denomination at a time. It just
doesn't take that much longer and the best coins just pop right out at you.

SMS cents in deep cameo are a bear. The '65 is easy in light cameo but nearly
impossible in DC.

I've been checking sets for so long that many of the varieties hadn't been dis-
covered yet.

segoja

I bought a 1964 Proof Set with all coins either DCAM or Cam Paid $200 for it.

Really doesn't take good pics or I'd post

never seen one with near that many cameos in one set ever. Certainly sold 10,000 or more proof sets in the last 30 years and I look at every one of them

cladking

<< <i>I bought a 1964 Proof Set with all coins either DCAM or Cam Paid $200 for it.

Really doesn't take good pics or I'd post

never seen one with near that many cameos in one set ever. Certainly sold 10,000 or more proof sets in the last 30 years and I look at every one of them >>



I don't have a great deal of experience with proof sets but there are an inordinate
number of mint sets with all gem coins made before 1980. It appears that assemblers
intentionally made some really great sets quite often and sometimes made truly horrible
sets. The existence of some of these sets simply defy the odds so must be intentional.
For some dates these "impossible sets" are nearly common with as many as one set in
two hundred being all gem coins.

I've not seen one dated after 1979.

WoodenJefferson

The Philadelphia Mint was not noted for producing Deep Cameo coins in proof sets for any of the denomination. In 1968, it took the San Fransisco Mint to refine the proof minting processes to continually produce a true cameo'd appearance. Through out the 70's this process was refined even more, so collector DCAM coins were struck on a routine basis.

Your lucky to get 1 coin with cameo devices in any of the flat packs much less a DCAM. I would say that 95% of all proof sets have been searched and cherry picked.

keets

are we done yet??