Why/how did MPD varieties happen?

OriginalDan

I've seen a few misplaced date varieties and there's a cool thread active right now about an 1858 seated half with misplaced date. I've never heard an explanation as to why a misplaced date occurred on a coin. The only misplaced dates I've seen show part or all of the date below the actual date, down in the denticles. Are there other types?

LanceNewmanOCC

<< <i>I've seen a few misplaced date varieties and there's a cool thread active right now about an 1858 seated half with misplaced date. I've never heard an explanation as to why a misplaced date occurred on a coin. The only misplaced dates I've seen show part or all of the date below the actual date, down in the denticles. Are there other types? >>



there are many spanning numerous coin types around the globe

there are a few different reasons to explain how/why the mpd types exist

first off, for a lot of coin series the target is so small - often times is was easier/cheaper to just "enhance" existing dies with re-punching than to make a new die

most of these occurred on much older coin series when the process and quality control were less than today's standards

i pity da foo that would have to re-punch numbers/stars etc

MrHalfDime

If you'd like to read more information than you ever thought possible on the subject of misplaced dates, there is a book, published by Kevin Flynn in 1997, entitled "Two Dates Are Better Than One - a Collector's Guide to Misplaced Dates", that you might find interesting. This book may not definitively answer your questions, but it is a compilation of many people's opinions as to why and how misplaced dates occurred. The book is divided into sections, or chapters, on each of the various denominations which contained misplaced dates. In the interest of full disclosure, I wrote the chapter on misplaced date half dimes, a series which contains very few misplaced dates. There are also several chapters presenting theories on how the misplaced dates occurred.

[I have no financial interest in this book, and present the above information merely to foster the advancement of numismatic knowledge.]

bidask

<< <i>If you'd like to read more information than you ever thought possible on the subject of misplaced dates, there is a book, published by Kevin Flynn in 1997, entitled "Two Dates Are Better Than One - a Collector's Guide to Misplaced Dates", that you might find interesting. This book may not definitively answer your questions, but it is a compilation of many people's opinions as to why and how misplaced dates occurred. The book is divided into sections, or chapters, on each of the various denominations which contained misplaced dates. In the interest of full disclosure, I wrote the chapter on misplaced date half dimes, a series which contains very few misplaced dates. There are also several chapters presenting theories on how the misplaced dates occurred.

[I have no financial interest in this book, and present the above information merely to foster the advancement of numismatic knowledge.] >>

Sonorandesertrat

MrHalfDime, thanks for the tip. I just ordered the book.

messydesk

The how part of the question is simple. Someone punched the date in the wrong place. The "why" is more difficult to answer. One popular theory is that the die sinker was testing the hardness of the die. Ron Landis of the Gallery Mint Museum wrote an article for their newsletter years ago that explored this a little. One of his tongue-in-cheek explanations of why it happened was that the die sinker may have been bitten by a rat when trying to punch the date in the die, which caused him to flinch, inadvertently punching the date in the wrong place.

OriginalDan

Thanks everyone. It's funny, sometimes you ask a question like this and you get a small paragraph explanation. Other times, you get a book to read! Sounds like another mysterious aspect of numismatics - part of the reason I love collecting coins.

An assumption that I have made is that each number in the date was punch individually. If that was the case, I find it odd that multiple numbers are misplaced. It's as if there was an area below where they practiced punching the date to get the spacing right before actually punching in the numerals. Maybe sometimes they practiced a little too high? I'll have to check out this book.

LanceNewmanOCC

<< <i>I've seen a few misplaced date varieties and there's a cool thread active right now about an 1858 seated half with misplaced date. I've never heard an explanation as to why a misplaced date occurred on a coin. The only misplaced dates I've seen show part or all of the date below the actual date, down in the denticles. Are there other types? >>



occam's razor seems an apropos fit. they are misplaced because of the level of difficulty due to the small font size of the numbers. i've used punches thousands of times and mine were probably the size of a morgan dollar's date, not a trime or indian and believe you me it would be hard.

edited to add

the 1858 thread is a neat one
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howards

<< <i>I've seen a few misplaced date varieties and there's a cool thread active right now about an 1858 seated half with misplaced date. I've never heard an explanation as to why a misplaced date occurred on a coin. The only misplaced dates I've seen show part or all of the date below the actual date, down in the denticles. Are there other types? >>



Here's a couple shield nickel examples that are not in the denticles.

LanceNewmanOCC

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after howard's cool post i actually had another thought about the reason(s) for MPDs

for the time period that most of the them occurred I will say it is a combination of the following

17 kids
1 unhappy wife - i would be too if i had that many kids, although the babysitter in the backyards coulda solved that one right quick ><
lack of sleep
excess of alcohol
lack of caring about the job, meh, just another paycheck
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OriginalDan

<< <i>Here's a couple shield nickel examples that are not in the denticles. >>


Very cool, much more identifiable than many MPDs found in denticles.

keets

if you've ever tried to use a letter or number punch you might understand how easily it would be to punch something in the wrong place. as Lance said, the work area is so small, especially on minor coins, that a slight movement would "misplace" the date. certainly there are contributing factors but that seems like the simple answer that doesn't need a book, though i'd bet the book is quite interesting.

OriginalDan

<< <i>if you've ever tried to use a letter or number punch you might understand how easily it would be to punch something in the wrong place. as Lance said, the work area is so small, especially on minor coins, that a slight movement would "misplace" the date. certainly there are contributing factors but that seems like the simple answer that doesn't need a book, though i'd bet the book is quite interesting. >>


Sure, but what you don't see are half-way misplaced dates. Usually MPDs are about 90-99% hidden. Here's my guess as to why... Let's say we use your idea that the hand can move just a little bit, easily. For all those times when the hand slipped enough that the date was in the denticles, they said "meh, no one will ever see that". But for all those times when it slipped only a little, the numeral was not aligned with the others in the date, but was not hidden and thus the die was never used and/or had to be discarded.

LanceNewmanOCC

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lets try to visualize ourselves standing in one of the mints. the weather extremes are more severe due to lack of technology. meaning you are sweating your butt off when it is hot and freezing it off when it is cold. it is probably dirty, dusty, dark and like that guy i posted in the image, he is no spring chicken.

for anyone that has used small punches on hard metal, they can actually slide quite a bit and very easy on a surface with incused/recessed areas.

also the mint somewhat created an atmosphere where the punchers (whatever their position would be) would see all the purposeful repunching of dates, stars, letters, all the recutting and reusing of dies, so he would think, meh so what if i miss a couple times, my back hurts, my pay blows, i have a naggy wife with all those snot nosed brats sucking me dry, i'm half hung over, i'm hungry virtually on the verge of starving, washing in my metal tub by a wood burning stove is a pain and my house is built from logs and mud and is more akin to a shanty and when i use the bathroom i have to walk 30 feet to a little hut with a hole in the ground and the guy probably had all but an iq of a mentally challenged person since a huge number of people from that time period were still on farms and plantations way the heck away from any semblance of formal education.

once the dies were screwed up and even if the quality control person(s) were to see the mistakes, there was just no way they could just go around firing these "well trained" employees nor could they just make new dies on a whim. so really, what even did it matter if there were 20 mpds? it was virtually not an option to start over. although it seems like if they made a master die for type with no date, then the working dies could be replaced a bit easier, but then again maybe not. they mints were working on shoestring budgets i would presume because tax collection back then was probably pretty sparce.

of course i really have no idea why it happened but like dan said, it is fun to speculate/read about.
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