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Are small B&Ms doomed to extinction?
Sonorandesertrat
Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
During the course of picking up a coin from Rick Snow yesterday, we chatted about various topics, including small B & M shops in the state. Dealers who don't travel extensively to shows are surviving now because of bullion-related trading. Many are buying old jewelry, competing with pawn shops and small jewelers. When the recession hit, many middle-class collectors simply stopped buying coins because of financial concerns. Around this time, the coin market began to bifurcate, with a clear and widening separation in collector interest between 'C' coins and ones that are 'A' or 'B' coins. The small-time dealers haven't been getting decent collector coins via walk-in sales, instead they've been getting stuff that mostly has to be wholesaled out. If gold and silver bullion sales begin to seriously drop off, they will be in trouble. Sales of modern mint products, and occasional $25-$100 coins won't pay the bills. Even buying from 'bid boards' is down.
I have always viewed the small-time, or Mom and Pop, B & M dealers as critical to the hobby. Many newbies get hooked on coins through repeated visits to local shops, handling obsolete coins, shooting the breeze with dealers, getting to see counterfeits thrown aside in a box pulled out of a back room, etc. Where will future generations of collectors get started in numismatics, if there aren't local venues? Is the Internet enough? A couple of decades from now, when I become a really old fart, I'd like to see another generation of middle-aged collectors appear (if for no other reason than to buy my coins).
Your thoughts?
I have always viewed the small-time, or Mom and Pop, B & M dealers as critical to the hobby. Many newbies get hooked on coins through repeated visits to local shops, handling obsolete coins, shooting the breeze with dealers, getting to see counterfeits thrown aside in a box pulled out of a back room, etc. Where will future generations of collectors get started in numismatics, if there aren't local venues? Is the Internet enough? A couple of decades from now, when I become a really old fart, I'd like to see another generation of middle-aged collectors appear (if for no other reason than to buy my coins).
Your thoughts?
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
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I think the bullion concept with some collector coins will be the norm. The buying opportunities at shows and ebay and dealers web sites as well as places like the BST make the B&M not very relevant any longer. I stopped making the drive to the few shops around my area do to very high supply cost and coins were higher end of retail or simply junk.
<< <i>...
I have always viewed the small-time, or Mom and Pop, B & M dealers as critical to the hobby. Many newbies get hooked on coins through repeated visits to local shops, handling obsolete coins, shooting the breeze with dealers, getting to see counterfeits thrown aside in a box pulled out of a back room, etc. Where will future generations of collectors get started in numismatics, if there aren't local venues? Is the Internet enough? >>
I'm not sure I follow the logic. At my local coin club, there aren't any members that are full time dealers with a store front. There are a couple of part-time dealers that occasionally set up at shows and also place buy ads to take phone calls to look at estates and such. The hobby would do just fine with that kind of business model, that includes some local monthly shows, plus some local coin clubs. Store front shops aren't necessary and adds considerably to overhead and security risks. Even the Internet would not be a necessity with that kind of environment.
Yes, having a lot of thriving B&M shops would indicate a stronger collector coin market, but their demise does not mean the hobby is doomed. There are locations where there is enough business to support a full time coin shop. However, that number is decreasing for mom & pop retail shops of all kinds, because of what is happening on the Internet and retail in general, it is not just coin shops.
/edit to add: I have sour to mixed memories of my local shops. I'd guess a forum survey, would have a wide range of mixed feelings about local shops, both back in the day, and today. The glowing review you outline is the exception. There are/were only a very few exceptional local shops. They never really existed that way, not on the average. I've heard more than a few stories about the local shop owner seeing the young collector as a source of revenue, a mark. I certainly was treated that way on occasion--I still am on occasion, as an adult at coin shows. Coin dealers are not angels. They bargain hard, and sometimes go close to edge of taking advantage, sometimes clearly go over that edge. If the op was one of the fortunate few to have an exceptional shop and get exceptional treatment, be thankful. However, also be realistic about idealizing that experience, because it is far removed from the average experience, the average coin shop.
<< <i>I do not think they will disappear, but the business model may be different from previous generations, just like in other retail establishments. >>
EXACTLY.
Most coin stores are now Pawn Shops.
Coin stores wont completely disappear, they will just morph into pawn shops.
of me (Los Angeles/Ventura county line between the
118 and 101 freeways, there were probably 25 or more
coin shops (B&Ms) that I would consider mom & pop
shops, today I know of only 3, and really not sure if
they qualify as mom & pop???
Steve
equation will return, though not as strong as it was from 1962-2008 due the boomers getting futher on in years. Those dealers that
can bridge the next 2-7 yrs with bullion sales should be able to come out of it ok.
<< <i>In the last, lets say 30 years and in a 20 mile radius
of me (Los Angeles/Ventura county line between the
118 and 101 freeways, there were probably 25 or more
coin shops (B&Ms) that I would consider mom & pop
shops, today I know of only 3, and really not sure if
they qualify as mom & pop???
Steve >>
I am thinking of small establishments like Conejo Valley Stamp & Coin
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>
<< <i>In the last, lets say 30 years and in a 20 mile radius
of me (Los Angeles/Ventura county line between the
118 and 101 freeways, there were probably 25 or more
coin shops (B&Ms) that I would consider mom & pop
shops, today I know of only 3, and really not sure if
they qualify as mom & pop???
Steve >>
I am thinking of small establishments like Conejo Valley Stamp & Coin >>
Yes they are one of them, and I really like them there, along with Pacific Coast
by the Reagan Library, they have a nice shop there as well, the other is located
at Burbank & Sepulveda, but my Daddy always said if you can't say something,
(oh well nevah mind)
Steve
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
On the security issue, you cant be too safe, all the time places are getting robbed, folks killed etc. I think about this daily becuase of what happend to me a little over 18 months ago. I have put in some measure that have helped deter, but always on my mind.
JIm
I buy/sell at shows or the internet now.
I live in Australia and I don't think we have nearly as many B&M stores as the US, and probably not as many collectors. My nearest one is about 500km away but the times I went in I really only found overpriced junk in the area I was looking at. I collect German coins and it hasn't been an issue buying from countries on the other side of the globe to find what I need. In fact, it is a lot easier to buy something from overseas, even if there was a store close.
As for reasons to get started, I think word of mouth is a good thing, combined with the fact we handle currency everyday and something a bit different (ie a wheat cent or state quarter) is enough to stimulate interest.
<< <i>With the rise in P.M.'s I've actually seen more fresh start-up B&M's pop up in my area. >>
And those are the one that will most likely die off as fast as they came. The guys that have
had shops for 30+ years know how to hang on.
A key reason to visit real coin shops is to see coins in hand, good bad and ugly examples. Perhaps I am old school, but I don't believe that a novice collector can learn to grade what he wants to collect by reading books or looking at images on a computer monitor. Classic U.S. coinage is more nuanced regarding grading and its relation to pricing than most types of foreign coins.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>OzzyAndy,
A key reason to visit real coin shops is to see coins in hand, good bad and ugly examples. Perhaps I am old school, but I don't believe that a novice collector can learn to grade what he wants to collect by reading books or looking at images on a computer monitor. Classic U.S. coinage is more nuanced regarding grading and its relation to pricing than most types of foreign coins. >>
Again, I think you are idealizing the situation, perhaps feeling nostalgia for your positive experiences at your local shop. How many coin shop collectors take the time and considerable effort to learn to grade? How many dealers will take the considerable time and effort to educate a novice? How many dealers would rather feed the novice some BS, so as to get more money out of said novice?
At my local club, it came as a shock to me that maybe half of the regulars can grade, and the half that doesn't know doesn't care to learn. The half that does know, tends to have basic knowledge. Maybe 1 out of 35 care two wits about what this forum seems totally focused on: quality for the grade. This is at a local club where maybe 25% buy off the Internet, the rest do all their business locally in person.
As far as images, I will agree with you, that in person is better. That said, there are those online collectors that have learned to do a great deal with images, and their grading expertise from images only is as good as many can ever hope to achieve with coins in hand. Certainly the top online grading experts can grade better with images only, than the average person at my local club with a coin in hand. It isn't even close.
the only flaw in this line of thinking is that you wrongly presume that if pm's were much lower the prices/market for collector coins would be at the same current level. my experience tells me that when pm prices are lower there is more interest and more money dedicated to collector coins. the overall picture we are presented with now is a bit distorted.
<< <i>yes imo B&M's are all but gone as a part of the coin market. Safety is a big issue in big cities as well as ever higher overhead cost. I live in LA and have seen at least 12 stores leave the market the last few decades there are very few left and new ones are not entering the market.
I think the bullion concept with some collector coins will be the norm. The buying opportunities at shows and ebay and dealers web sites as well as places like the BST make the B&M not very relevant any longer. I stopped making the drive to the few shops around my area do to very high supply cost and coins were higher end of retail or simply junk.
It's almost as hard to make money selling coins in a B&M as it is to sell books in a Borders. Yes, the PMs help a lot, but Amazon, eBay, both are retail killers.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>The number of old widows ripe for the rip is increasing. That's what will keep B&M's in business. >>
As will a doctrine of fairness. >>
Hopefully, most coin collectors will leave their spouse instructions as to how to properly dispose of their coin collections by auction or the orderly disbursement using the services of a trusted dealer.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>You're talking about a generation that has been brought up with internet, why do they need to visit stores to start collecting? >>
+1 more... I'm under 40 and have many friends under 30 and here's my take:
I think many here are perhaps too optimistic regarding the next generation's interest in coins. Many here started collecting as children, because to a large degree that's why kids did. Today's teens grew up with the internet and smart phones and while no doubt some of them will or already have discovered the hobby, many more simply won't. Keep in mind *many* young folks don't even carry cash on them, let alone change. When you don't handle change very often as a child you're less likely to seek it out as an adult IMO. Furthermore even the folks who do find the hobby have been trained to rely on the internet at this point so B&Ms are in trouble IMO if the PM trade ever dies. (Of course as long as we have crooks in DC than PMs may continue their run so on some level that trade may last forever
Again, this is just my .02 as younger person who has been in the hobby for five years now...
Do most B&M even carry high-end stuff any more? Usually I have to go to a larger show to see anything I need.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
when there are NO more B&M shops you collection will fall in the catogory of stamps.
Like it or not the B&M stores are like the corner stone of a building!
It's not the whole building but a MOST important part.
Only time will tell!
As far as the next generation (speaking as a 27 year old and not as a full time dealer), there could be some weak years over the next 10-15 year but after that time there should be a huge boom to the industry. Anyone surviving those years will be rewarded greatly. From roughly 1980-2000 there was no interesting change so kids did not get exposed to coin collecting. Over the next 10-20 years these people who were children during that period will be getting to an age where they can afford to collect things but may not head to coins because they were not exposed to them as children. It is my belief that collectors are born and not created. You will collect something if it is your tendency to collect. It is those people who are exposed to coins during their childhood that will return to collecting when they are older. The children of the state quarter era will get to the point where they have the disposable income to collect coins seriously (yes this is a generalization and there are exceptions). Though the landscape may be very very different when this happens.
<< <i>I think there will always be small time B+M shops. The ones that try to survive entirely on coins might have a hard time but there are some where the owner is either exceedingly wealthy and doesn't need to make money (it is just something to do)...... >>
Agree. I know a couple of B & M coin shop owners that are retired with a pension + social security so they are not dependent on their coin sales to support themselves. They do it because they like coins and want to keep themselves busy.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
But there isn't much working in B&M's favor, is there?
<< <i>Doomed? No... and certainly not all.
But there isn't much working in B&M's favor, is there? >>
Confused widows?
<< <i>Truth be told, but I stopped going into 99% of B&Ms because I now have more personal inventory than they actually have on display...or carry.
Do most B&M even carry high-end stuff any more? Usually I have to go to a larger show to see anything I need. >>
I agree with this. All of the B&Ms I visit have overpriced lower grade coins. My preferences have changed quite a bit and I've "outgrown" what my local B&Ms carry.
I find some success at smaller coin shows but the large coin shows / auctions / web are where most of my coins come from.