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The Ultimate in "Market Grading"
okracer
Posts: 436 ✭
Some recent threads, including the one on can you grade from a picture, reminded me of this:
I was at a coin show a little while back, looking at some Early Coppers by a prominent and knowledgable dealer.
I was looking at one coin in particular, and asked the dealer what it graded. He replied, "$700".
I said, "no, not what it costs, but what is the grade?". He said again, "It grades at $700."
He then made it clear that the "grade" was what someone was willing to pay for it, not necessarily what the technical grade is (maybe he was referring only to Early Coppers?).
I told him I respect what he was saying and did buy some nice coins from him.
..........Was this an odd way for a dealer to speak, or is this actually common? This guy knows his stuff and is pretty fair in his prices, I just thought his approach was somewhat different.
......I collect old stuff......
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Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Some recent threads, including the one on can you grade from a picture, reminded me of this:
I was at a coin show a little while back, looking at some Early Coppers by a prominent and knowledgable dealer.
I was looking at one coin in particular, and asked the dealer what it graded. He replied, "$700".
I said, "no, not what it costs, but what is the grade?". He said again, "It grades at $700."
He then made it clear that the "grade" was what someone was willing to pay for it, not necessarily what the technical grade is (maybe he was referring only to Early Coppers?).
I told him I respect what he was saying and did buy some nice coins from him.
..........Was this an odd way for a dealer to speak, or is this actually common? This guy knows his stuff and is pretty fair in his prices, I just thought his approach was somewhat different. >>
Tell Doug that Lane says "hey."
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
As another example of extreme 'market grading', think about the prices realized for nice AU58 coins. These can far exceed low MS guide values.
I don't particularly care for that game.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I see this as a GREAT way to prevent people quibbling over whether it's a VF 30 or 35 (for example) or an AU55 or 58. It's this much money, do you want it or not?
Our own Stman has been known to "grade" his offerings this way on the BST board, and so have I and several others in the past
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Not always. Try doing this with eye-appealing Barber halves.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
you strengthen the point that the "grade and price guide" is not always the best way to price coins, sounds like eye appealing barber halves and early copper are two examples
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Not always. Try doing this with eye-appealing Barber halves
you strengthen the point that the "grade and price guide" is not always the best way to price coins, sounds like eye appealing barber halves and early copper are two examples >>
I agree, but my point is that when I ask a seller a straightforward question, I expect a plain answer, not an evasive one.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
If you are at a show I don't see anything wrong with this method of just stating the price. You, as the buyer, are free to grade the coin yourself and whip out your price guide. And...as was mentioned below...you can offer less based on your own evaluation. PRICE really is all that matters anyway.
I don't know who this dealer was but I like him already.
<< <i> I agree, but my point is that when I ask a seller a straightforward question, I expect a plain answer, not an evasive one. >>
How is that even remotely evasive? He quoted the PRICE to the buyer. Sounds pretty straightforward to me.
jom
<< <i>Grading was originally a method of describing a coin between two parties when they did not have the coin in hand.
If you are at a show I don't see anything wrong with this method of just stating the price. You, as the buyer, are free to grade the coin yourself and whip out your price guide. And...as was mentioned below...you can offer less based on your own evaluation. PRICE really is all that matters anyway.
I don't know who this dealer was but I like him already.
<< <i> I agree, but my point is that when I ask a seller a straightforward question, I expect a plain answer, not an evasive one. >>
How is that even remotely evasive? He quoted the PRICE to the buyer. Sounds pretty straightforward to me.
jom >>
If I ask a seller what his grade for a coin in his inventory is, I am not asking his price for it. That is a separate question.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>If I ask a seller what his grade for a coin in his inventory is, I am not asking his price for it. That is a separate question. >>
I understand but I don't think he was being evasive. I think he's trying to make a point or...at least...that's just the way he does business.
Although, in a real situation the dealer might want to explain himself a bit better.
jom
I did eventually get a grade out of him on the only purchase I ever made from him, a Chain cent.
C: "what does this half cent grade?"
DB: "it's priced as a VF, [looks at coin] ... and it is a VF."
(I didn't look at the coin myself, but I imagine it was a VF coin. Of course, what do you expect him to say, "it's priced as a VF, and it's a gem Unc," or "it's priced as a VF, and it's an AG at best"? As it happened, the customer passed (at least while I was there).)
I've also noticed from some Doug Bird flips in the mid 1990's, that he did put a grade on the labels back then.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
TRUTH
<< <i>The dealer's message was clear and perfectly justifiable. That said, nothing stops you from replying that you only grade it $550. >>
Nice - I like that response
<< <i>That is fairly common, and IMHO a coy response inasmuch as it relieves the dealer of the issue of agreement on what is the appropriate grade.
I don't particularly care for that game. >>
Agree. I never cared for dealer game playing. Trusting most dealers to grade a raw coin that they are trying to sell to you is risky at best. Either learn to grade yourself or buy PCGS or NGC slabbed coins. The third party grading services became successful because of the lack of trust in dealers grading ability or their honesty in describing their coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
calls AU-58 sell for MS-63 price levels, and are often graded MS-63 by the grading
services. Telling a customer that your grade on a given raw coin is AU-58, then pricing
the coin at MS-63, is not a good business plan. Especially if the customer is NOT savvy
with EAC grading principles.
I have also seen copper dealers sit down with a customer and spend half an hour
teaching them about EAC grading (obviously a GOOD customer and a SLOW show). As
a general rule, copper dealers are a pretty good group, in my opinion.
<< <i>Some recent threads, including the one on can you grade from a picture, reminded me of this:
I was at a coin show a little while back, looking at some Early Coppers by a prominent and knowledgable dealer.
I was looking at one coin in particular, and asked the dealer what it graded. He replied, "$700".
I said, "no, not what it costs, but what is the grade?". He said again, "It grades at $700."
He then made it clear that the "grade" was what someone was willing to pay for it, not necessarily what the technical grade is (maybe he was referring only to Early Coppers?).
I told him I respect what he was saying and did buy some nice coins from him.
..........Was this an odd way for a dealer to speak, or is this actually common? This guy knows his stuff and is pretty fair in his prices, I just thought his approach was somewhat different. >>
A grade is simply a means to an end (i.e. a price). The dealer was simply skipping a step (and perhaps circumventing the whole EAC/TPG grading disagreement).
Oddly enough, when you compare PCGS price guides on early copper to CQR, the prices are amazingly similar despite the quite different scale -- suggesting regardless of the grading standard they come together at pricing time.
Frankly, I could care less about the grade on the envelope or the slab -- only the price )(and the coin!) matters, and the rest is noise.
IMO, of course.
p.s. I really liked Andy's response...
His price worked out to xf45, and it graded at PCGS at au55. I was very pleased with the coin as purchased, and very pleased with the
grading outcome.
<< <i>I have heard that from copper dealers quite often. Many of the large cents that EAC
calls AU-58 sell for MS-63 price levels, and are often graded MS-63 by the grading
services. Telling a customer that your grade on a given raw coin is AU-58, then pricing
the coin at MS-63, is not a good business plan. Especially if the customer is NOT savvy
with EAC grading principles.
I have also seen copper dealers sit down with a customer and spend half an hour
teaching them about EAC grading (obviously a GOOD customer and a SLOW show). As
a general rule, copper dealers are a pretty good group, in my opinion. >>
I agree. A lot of Lincolns that PCGS grades MS are really AU. I wish they would stop doing this.