Pics added-Why is it that so many silver ancients look silver-white?

Weg

I'm not a collector of ancients, I have two which I bought in a B&M about 50 years ago. Funny, they are the only coins I have left of the ones I bought back then. Looking at them I'd never figure that they are silver if not for the original cardboard back that the coins plastic holder was stapled to that said what they were and their composition.

Once in awhile I'll stop in a forum for Ancients and a couple times took links to dealers and looked at their inventory. At one large site I noticed all the ancient silver looked cleaned or dipped; I couldn't believe that silver coins around 2,000 years old were stored in a way that they didn't tone. Is it acceptable to dip ancients?

I guess the two I have are special to me since I've had them for so long, but I'm not willing to dip them until I find out what is acceptable and what is not.

Thanks to anyone that can explain so many white or silver looking ancients.

Edit:I got around to taking some pictures of the two I've had for so long. Lord M helped me find one of them in a site called something like wildwood; I need to look it up again. The second one I never found anything on; perhaps someone will recognize it.

I'm open to suggestions as to the best way to clean these up; after that I'd like to have them slabbed even if the cost is more than what the coins are worth. I've had them this long so it's worth it to me. So any help/tips on how to make them look their best, identification, and if you happen to know a TPG that will slab them would be very helpfull.

BillyKingsley

Every ancient on the market was dug out of the ground. I don't think there are any that have come down to us in collections since they were new...but I could be wrong, as I'm by no means an expert, just a fan.

Weg

I figured the silver-white coins must have been cleaned in one way or another. For U.S. coins most types of cleaning destroy the value, but it seems acients fall under a different standard which is what I'm trying to figure out.

Pokermandude

Virtually all ancient coins have been cleaned in recent times. This is especially true for bronze coins which are often found very encrusted/unidentifiable until they are conserved. That being said, it is certainly possible to clean an ancient too hard or too much.

It's definitely not as cut and dry like moderns where uncleaned is the norm, and anything other than "problem free, uncleaned, etc" is discounted, often heavily. Ancients are more unique in this respect. There are negative elements such as overcleaning, test cuts, off center strikes, cracked planchets, (among many other things) can each just slight lower the price of a piece. Then there are positive elements such as smooth/uncorroded surfaces, centered strikes, strong strikes and other eye appeal elements that can increase the value. Often times a desirable ancient coin will exhibit a number of these "positive" elements, as well as 1 or 2 negative elements.

Pokermandude

Here's two of my coins. Both are Gordian III AR Ant. One has been cleaned/conserved and has retoned a bit dark. I acquired this one from my favourite ancient coin dealer a couple years ago.

The second I picked up as part of a modestly sized collection. It's authentic, but has been cleaned a bit harder than most, and quite recently. I've been told it should tone quite well in time. Most definitely it is still market acceptable. Some might even prefer it's appearance to a more darkly toned coin. I slightly prefer the more greyish toned style.


#1




#2 Picture is a bit washed out. It has a lot more of a reflective appearance in hand.

Sapyx

<< <i>Every ancient on the market was dug out of the ground. I don't think there are any that have come down to us in collections since they were new...but I could be wrong, as I'm by no means an expert, just a fan. >>


Correct. There's no such thing as a 2000 year old coin collection - even the Vatican's coin collection wasn't started until the 1400s or so. And you certainly aren't going to find ancient Roman coins that have been kicking around in circulation for 2000 years, either. So every single ancient coin that exists today was buried long ago and lost, only to be found again and dug up relatively recently.


<< <i>I figured the silver-white coins must have been cleaned in one way or another. For U.S. coins most types of cleaning destroy the value, but it seems acients fall under a different standard which is what I'm trying to figure out. >>


Every single ancient coin has been cleaned after it was dug up, so obviously the standard for modern coins cannot apply.

Gold coins don't need much cleaning - gold doesn't corrode, and buried gold coins will last indefinitely. That's why people love gold so much. Just soap and water to remove the dirt, and they're usually good to go. If the dinosaurs had made gold coins and we were digging them up, you could pretty much say the same thing.

Silver coins usually aren't too bad. An ammonia wash is standard treatment for silver coins and usually does the job quite well, though there are often accretions stuck to them that require harsher removal techniques. A particular problem is "horn silver", or silver chloride formation - that stuff only comes off in extra-strong acid or ammonia. Silver also "crystallizes" over time, making it brittle and prone to cracking.

Bronze and brass coins, after 2000 years in the soil, come out of the ground looking like little green rocks. They are in a sense "partially fossilized" and require extensive and careful cleaning just to get them to the point where they are identifiable, and even further cleaning to bring them up to market-acceptable condition.

It is certainly possible to do a "bad cleaning job" on an ancient coin, which detracts from its value - electrolysis, for example, is a "quick and dirty" cleaning method that usually leaves a coin resembling a map of the Moon. But ancients collectors have to get used to the concept of a "good cleaning job" that actually enhances value, because it makes the coin identifiable.

Bjorn

I wonder if some of the buried coins suffered less corrosion when buried in jars or pots - particularly those toward the centre.

Weg

I imagine how they were buried, the type soil, climate, all made a difference to how the coin was affected with time.

What I'll do is take some better pictures of the two coins and post them. Maybe then someone can say what would work best to clean them up. As said, I've managed to keep them for about 50 years now, they are probably the only things I still have from when I was less than 10 years old so there is an attachment to them. I'd hate to mess them up but would like to see them in a condition that is closer to how they looked when they may have been used in commerce so long ago. 50 years later, it is still a mind blower thinking about that.

Weg

Added Pics with a plea for help.

TwoKopeiki

Weg, I like the patina on your coins and wouldn't mess with it. However it's a personal preference.

Weg

I may agree with the Roman coin but the other which is still really unidentified has some crud on it.

Edit: Perhaps a long bath in acitone?

FilthyBroke

<< <i>I may agree with the Roman coin but the other which is still really unidentified has some crud on it.

Edit: Perhaps a long bath in acitone? >>



And get rid of the "desert patina"? I would urge against that, seriously.

Pokermandude

<< <i>And get rid of the "desert patina"? I would urge against that, seriously. >>



I second this. Once that encrusted desert patina is removed, what is left is usually a very ugly coin that is hard to make out any details on.

The first coin just looks like secondary toning. Could maybe be dipped but I wouldn't try it myself if it were my coin.

Weg

Thanks for the advice guys; I can see ancients are viewed and handled in a completely different manor than modern coins. It appears it's a good thing I asked before I did anything, and now it sounds like doing nothing as far as cleaning the coins is best.

Does anyone recognize the second coin, the one that is supposed to be from Gallia? I've seen others from the 2nd century BC and this one seems very crude in comparison.
Now that I know not to mess with them via cleaning I'd like to positivly identify them and have them encapsulated even if it cost more than what the coins are worth.
I was thinking if there was anything else I've held on to for so long and all I could come up with was these two ancients and my blue Witman Lincoln cent books, then it hit me. Of all things, a rock. A 12 x 14 inch white quartz rock that I found, put into my little red wagon then pulled it home and I still have that damned rock. It's funny what some people keep all their lives.

Can anyone help identify and say if a TPG will accept these two ancients? I'd like to keep these.

Weg

I'll try again.
Can anyone help identify and say if a TPG will accept and slab these two ancients?

lordmarcovan

Those look great. Leave 'em be!

NGC Ancients would slab those, if you wanted them slabbed.

BillyKingsley

I agree with everyone else, leave them as is! Sorry I can't help you ID that second one. I have a very basic grasp of even the Roman coins (which I love) but not anything else, at least, not yet. Can't say anything about the slabbing deal, I would personally leave them with the info cards that have been with them for the past 5 decades.

rec78

"Why is it that so many silver ancients look silver-white?" Alloy or composition? I do not know the purity of ancient silver coins but my guess is that it would be quite high in silver content to almost pure silver- thus look silver-white when clean.

CIVITAS

The tickets accompanying the coins are fairly accurate.

Here's another example of the Celtic coin you have with a more complete attribution:

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=3014&lotNo=25054

TwoKopeiki

Good to see you posting, Josh!

CIVITAS

I find a moment to poke my head in once in a while these days.

Weg

Josh, thanks for the Heritage link. Ever since I brought those home I thought of the Gallia coin as a single side struck coin. Odd, I'd have thought both sides would wear a bit more evenly but this one is worn much more on what I assume is the reverse.

Thank you to everyone that relpied; I'm convinced to not do anything to clean them up. Now I just need to make the decision whether to send them to NGC. It would probably cost more than what they are worth in $ terms. They have a different type of value to me, I only want to take care of them for personal satisfaction. The only bad thing I can think of in having them slabbed is that I wouldn't be able to actually hold them in hand anymore.

determined

<< <i>Now I just need to make the decision whether to send them to NGC. It would probably cost more than what they are worth in $ terms. They have a different type of value to me, I only want to take care of them for personal satisfaction. The only bad thing I can think of in having them slabbed is that I wouldn't be able to actually hold them in hand anymore. >>



Personally I agree that it would probably cost as much or more than they're worth to get them slabbed. I have many ancients that I treasure that are like that. And yeah, you wouldn't get to actually hold them which is a thrill with collecting ancients. And a collector's first ancients are usually a great thrill.

If you want to take care of them the most important thing is to avoid PVC flips.

Weg

PVC is something I was not aware of until 5-6 years ago; once I had heard about it I took these two out of the original plastic holder which was quite stiff and stapled to the card. I have two types of holders now, SaFlip and cardboard with the thin plastic on the inside. I put these in the cardboard type so I could write notes on them. I'm pretty sure the SaFlip are PVC free but am just hoping the cardboard type are. I assume the original holders were PVC free or else after being in them for 45 years there would have been a reaction. I must say I was worried about the original holders because the Roman coin was so dark and the Galia has what was called desert patina and I honestly can not recall exactly how the coins looked when I first purchased them.

CIVITAS

<< <i>Josh, thanks for the Heritage link. Ever since I brought those home I thought of the Gallia coin as a single side struck coin. Odd, I'd have thought both sides would wear a bit more evenly but this one is worn much more on what I assume is the reverse.

Thank you to everyone that relpied; I'm convinced to not do anything to clean them up. Now I just need to make the decision whether to send them to NGC. It would probably cost more than what they are worth in $ terms. They have a different type of value to me, I only want to take care of them for personal satisfaction. The only bad thing I can think of in having them slabbed is that I wouldn't be able to actually hold them in hand anymore. >>



It isn't actually worn unevenly so much as it was struck unevenly. This was a very crude series and it is pretty typical for one side to be struck very weakly or very much off center or even both.