Old GAI Flips on Graded Packs

lahmejoon

Hi All,

There have been numerous discussions on here about the reliability of GAI for graded packs. The common theme has been that graded packs with the old silver flips tend to be the most reliable, compared to the newer flip styles.

That being said, there was a discussion awhile back where someone alluded to anything graded with serial numbers after the 102 prefix being, potentially, sketchy because that was when they started grading the fake 70's cello packs.

My question to the experts here is, if we combine the two items above, would it be reasonable to assume that any GAI graded pack with the old silver flip, with a serial number coming before the 102 series, be the most reliable of the bunch? I know that PSA is the preferred service; however, this is a relevant question for those of us who may have picked up GAI graded packs in the past.

Thanks in advance for your help!
Aaron

Griffins

buy the pack, not the holder. Everyone has made mistakes.
I've got packs with the newer, white GAI flip. To some that makes them suspect, but I broke them out of PSA holders and had them reholdered in GAI slabs.

grote15

Agree with Griffins. In general, the older GAI flips with the serial numbers beginning with 100XXX and 101XXX are considered very reliable, as those packs were graded during the Wright and Murphy eras, whereas the ones with the 102XXX serial numbers coincided with the Rutter era, which is regarded as a less reliable era (this is when GAI holdered those bogus 70s grocery cellos). That said, there are plenty of authentic packs in holders with the 102XXX serial number, though in my experience, the grades themselves are a bit inflated during that era, too. There were many fake packs fabricated from uncut rolls of wrappers (particularly 77 and 78) with the newer design holder that followed the silver flip, but I have also found that the most recently graded packs with the latest flip design are pretty much on point and accurately graded, though I haven't had as much experience purchasing and/or opening those packs as I have with the older silver flip packs. Know your source and know what to look for and as Griffins said, buy the pack, not the holder...it's important to do your homework in this area of the hobby where fraud is very pervasive.

Griffins

IMO Murphy lost all credibility with the pimping of the Xmas rack pack garbage. Not to mention the golf penny stock ad.

grote15

True that, but at that time he was widely regarded as the unopened pack specialist in the hobby along with Steve Hart, and did deal in a lot of authentic vintage unopened product., whereas the parade of graders that followed beginning with Rutter really had little in the way of unopened expertise.

tmgrnzx9r

What about the gai packs that start with 104????
After reading this post I looked at the 2 gai packs that I have graded and they both start with 104
Thanks

gemint

Anthony, did you convert from the PSA holders to GAI due to the gum punch-through issue? I thought I had read from someone that PSA fixed the problem but a response to my questions in another thread indicated it's still a problem. I'm considering sending some of my packs in under the current special but will probably only do the cellos if the wrapper damage is still an issue.

grote15

Gemint, the issue with the gum has been significantly improved with the newer holders, though it can still be an issue if the gum is loose inside the pack.

The 104xxx serial numbers were the last ones before Gai changed its entire serial numbering system.

tmgrnzx9r

<< <i>Gemint, the issue with the gum has been significantly improved with the newer holders, though it can still be an issue if the gum is loose inside the pack.

The 104xxx serial numbers were the last ones before Gai changed its entire serial numbering system. >>



Grote15
Are the 104's considers safe so to speak????

grote15

I've seen good and bad packs in that sequence. I'd say most are good. There are bad packs in every sequence but if you know your source and what red flags to look for, you should be fine. I've opened well over a hundred packs in gai holders and the vast majority are legit.

Griffins

John, I changed my packs over because I just didn't like PSA's holder. IMO it's too big and visually you're showing more of the holder and less of the pack. I tried a few packs when they first started grading them (at the '06 National) and then eventually switched them back to GAI holders.
Neither holder is perfect and I've seen damage in both, but if you're not moving inventory around the country in show cases once the pack gets to you you should be able to minimize movement. My decision was based purely on visual appeal, which I think is superior in Globals holder.

Archaninator

.

grote15

As I stated before, the vast majority of packs in GAI holders are absolutely authentic. I've opened a ton of packs and know this for a fact. Are there problem packs in GAI holders? Yes, certainly. But if you know what to look for and know your source, you will be fine.

lahmejoon

Thanks, everyone. In general, it does seem as though the packs in GAI holders sell at a discount of what they would be in PSA holders. Of course, I'm only comparing what BBCE has in PSA holders versus what I have seen realized on ebay for similar packs with similar grades in GAI holders.

I suppose it would warrant another thread, but for a newbie to unopened pack collecting, it would be great to know more about "what to look for" when it comes to assessing packs in GAI holders. Someone posted a thread a week or two ago about a pack on ebay (I think it was a '68 topps baseball) that was in a GAI holder and had a rip in the back flap. Some were saying that it looked suspect, while otherse were saying it was probably legit. To me, I wouldn't buy a pack with a rip in the back flap just because of appearance. However, I would be curious as to how people would conclude that a pack such as this was legit (or not) based on looking at a scan of the pack.

lahmejoon

Actually, I think the pack with the rip I alluded to was a 70 topps baseball, not a '68.

Griffins

When Steve was selling GAI graded packs they generally listed for about 30% more or so than they were going for on ebay. You're paying a bit of a premium for the peace of mind that Steve provides. I think it's well worth it.

grote15

it would be great to know more about "what to look for"

It's hard to specifically define this as product control at the Topps factory in this era was very erratic to say the least, but in general, an authentic wax pack will exhibit a clean flat seal with consistent roller lines on the back of the pack and tight corner folds at the edges of the pack, as that tightness is difficult to replicate when resealing from loose wrappers. The pack should also exhibit factory fresh gloss and color with no unusual or suspicious wrinkles or tears in the wrapper, as this is another sign that a wrapper was reused to fabricate a pack. Also, many reselaers will either use the wrong size gum or use shattered pieces of gum because the thicker slabs of gum that Topps used in the 1970s is more difficult to come by than the skinnier pieces of gum that you can readily poach from any worthless late 80s non-sports pack. Once you get familiar with how a pack should look, it becomes easier to spot the fakes, though some are resealed more expertly than others. The best way to learn even more about real vs resealed packs is to open as many as you can, as the experience will provide you with more information on what to look for and what to look out for.

gemint

<< <i>John, I changed my packs over because I just didn't like PSA's holder. IMO it's too big and visually you're showing more of the holder and less of the pack. I tried a few packs when they first started grading them (at the '06 National) and then eventually switched them back to GAI holders.
Neither holder is perfect and I've seen damage in both, but if you're not moving inventory around the country in show cases once the pack gets to you you should be able to minimize movement. My decision was based purely on visual appeal, which I think is superior in Globals holder. >>



Thanks Anthony. I haven't really seen the PSA pack holders up close so it's good to know that they are bulky and not visually appealing. I'm a bit torn on whether to submit. The motivations for me to submit are that I would like to register my sets that include a corresponding wax pack on the registry, I'd like to have the added protection of having them in an holder and I'd like the piece of mind of having them authenticated. The downsides are that I don't want them to get damaged during transit, the possibility I won't like the holder and the fact that they currently fit snugly in plastic team set holders that fit nicely in the blue PSA card boxes compactly in the safe.

In terms of authenticity, most I have no concerns about since I bought them from full boxes being broken by Murphy, BBCE or the Perfect Card Company back in the day. However, I did by a couple off eBay many years ago and a few of those are questionable. I guess I'm in a quandry but I do have a month to decide whether to pull the trigger and send them in.

grote15

I would not say that the PSA holders aren't visually appealing. They actually look more impressive and legitimate than the GAI holders, but they are definitely more bulky and heavier.

Beezer12

The serial numbers aren't as important as who you are buying from and their knowledge of where the pack came from if you are concerned with an authentication service like GAI's accuracy. Such services are only an informed opinion anyways, some perhaps more consistant than others. One can even manage the risk with raw packs on ebay somewhat if the seller can provide some provenance on them. Lots of honest sellers out there if you do your homework. I'm not a big fan of GAI since they lost my 64' Beatles rack pack during their infamous office shuffle a few years ago (they did pay for it, yeah I'm still ticked lol) but the stories of them slabbing everything are exaggerated. When I actively collected I had my share of bad packs returned which always seemed to come from a to good to be true price on loose packs with no provenence from the seller. Lessons learned, as noted by others, one has to handle a lot of wax to learn what to look for. Getting burned with pack buying occasionally is part of the learning curve and it's not for the faint of heart. You simply can't tell for sure by looking at a picture. I personally would sometimes pick rougher looking packs with corner wear and funky, crushed seals when I had the opportunity because resealers tend to try to make their handiwork look too pretty.

grote15

Here's an example of the newer holder:

StarPaxMan

<< <i>Here's an example of the newer holder:

>>


In my last sub PSA revert to the old holders for the bigger packs and used the new holders
for the thin 60s & 70s packs only

flatfoot816

I took a somewhat different approach. I had most of my cello and wax crossed to PSA even though most of the packs that were in GAI holders were in the era of respectability so to speak. The reason was not for aesthetics, but to safeguard my investment. While I do cherish my collection, it is still in many respects an investment--there for the God forbid emergency, college tuition, whatever. Because PSA holdered wax and cello will always be trusted more--especially to those who may not have the savvy or expertise to know a good pack from a bad pack--they will generally sell for a premium. And to a larger audience.

Having said that I do not really display my collection of wax and cello. I have over 30 autographed Ted Williams lithos that take up my space. Not saying my way is the right way, just a different approach.

Griffins

the packs would clash too much with those walls Manny

flatfoot816

AAAAAHHHHHHHH ! You remember those "almost pink" walls huh Anthony? Well life has thrown us a curveball so my lithos no longer grace those same walls. And yes they look much better in my new home with a more neutral tone!

lahmejoon

Thanks, everyone, for the discussion.

It sounds like the moral of the story is to be cautious when buying GAI graded packs in an online format, in that you do not have the ability to inspect the pack up-close. However, if it comes from a reliable seller and/or the seller can provide you with some solid background on the pack, that would be the best thing in your favor if buying in the online format.