<< <i>If i were detained without due process, interrogated, etc, while I'm minding my own business (going to work, raising a family, entertaining myself with sports programming and internet chat boards), I'd be outraged. >>
So only if it were while you were minding your own business? I'm curious - In what circumstances would you not be outraged if you were detained and interrogated without due process?
So only if it were while you were minding your own business? I'm curious - In what circumstances would you not be outraged if you were detained and interrogated without due process?
Me, I can't think of any.
You make my point for me. You or I will NOT be detained or interrogated without due process. I see nothing in the law about random, wasteful harassment of ordinary people. Attempts to portray the intention of this legislation as to confiscate normal people's time and money rings hollow to me. OF COURSE we'd be outraged if that came to pass. But it won't
If someone is a clear and present danger because of the quantities of hazardous materials they posess, or is in violation of ATFE/money laundering/tax evasion, or other laws in their EXHIBITED BEHAVIOR, they should expect to be detained while authorities start the due process of figuring out what's going on.
For example, if I go to buy one or two bottles of cough syrup or sudafed, no problem, flash ID, pay, in and out of the store no problem. Who cares if the Gov't "knows" about my purchase?
I shouldn't be surprised to receive questions if I try to buy 100 packages.
Perhaps too many guilty people are getting away on technicalities, and some loopholes need to be closed, I dunno, I'm trying to learn about this stuff too. It just seems like an emergency public safety situation would be the only time that suspects' "rights to due process" might be temporarily suspended. Authorities will be very careful about this, because, as this reactionary thread would seem to indicate, folks are very sensitive about potential abuses of governmental power.
Edit: I see that GSA has cut and pasted the Franklin quote yet again, and added some more name calling in his analysis. Here, this brilliant insight is just for you:
Now, GSA, how about taking the time to explain to the Dummy, in English words, just exactly what YOU are so terrified about?
<< <i>So only if it were while you were minding your own business? I'm curious - In what circumstances would you not be outraged if you were detained and interrogated without due process?
Me, I can't think of any.
You make my point for me. You or I will NOT be detained or interrogated without due process. I see nothing in the law about random, wasteful harassment of ordinary people. Attempts to portray the intention of this legislation as to confiscate normal people's time and money rings hollow to me. >>
It's frighteningly naive to believe that the government will only use some power (any power) in ways we expect or believe are appropriate, and will never abuse or mistakenly apply its power and authority. Right to due process is how we verify the government acts within its appropriate authority in the exercise of its powers against the people. Without due process there is no guarantee that government follows the rule of law. Without a rule of law we live in a totalitarian state where government is free to act without regard for the rights of its citizens.
That's quite a chain of events. I'm sorry but I just can't follow it that far, to the point that I notice ANY affect of this law on me or anyone I know, including you
And, notice, no one has yet explained how they expect it to adversely affect them.
Wonder why no one can come up with even ONE specific example?
Gecko is right, we heard a lot of this clamor over the Patriot Act. I've never been "Patriot Acted", have you? Has anyone you know? If so, why were they? How has it turned out?
There's no chain of events; it's very simple: Every "not guilty" verdict is an example of the value and need for Due Process.
Google "falsely accused of terrorism" link to see many examples of innocent people who'd still be in jail if they had been deprived of due process, as this law allows.
Baley, this is the problem. As you point out, "if the Gov't were to NOT investigate people with large, unregistered arsenals, people with illicit drug and explosive caches, and people doing large, undocumented cash transactions, I'd also be outraged". Likewise, if the Gov't were to make these types of seizures and detentions without the sanction of law, we would all be talking about how corrupt and evil the Gov't is.
So, where do you draw the line? I'm sure there is a philosophical essay on these types of "can't win" situations. But that is where we find ourselves today. And that being the case, we are absolutely vulnerable to the justifications that any administration might conjure up to suit their need, whether real, imagined, or simply a baldfaced lie. It doesn't matter.
That's why checks and balances *were* part of the design. The problem is that these checks & balances are being dismantled. So, the question becomes - what kind of system do you want to end up with? I'm not in favor of these changes and I believe them to be extremely radical and dangerous. I'm not in favor of a "benevolent dictatorship".
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Neither am I, my friend. I'm just trying to understand what area of my life and behavior i can worry about and expect to be "dictated"
I spend my time and conduct my business no where near any moral or legal "lines". I've found in life that those who spend time debating where "the line" is are trying to get away with something.
I'm just trying to understand what area of my life and behavior i can worry about and expect to be "dictated"
I spend my time and conduct my business no where near any moral or legal "lines". I've found in life that those who spend time debating where "the line" is are trying to get away with something.
Ditto, my friend.
Baley, it's undeniable that we have a tax cheat as Secretary of the Treasury. These people are not honest and they do not have your best interests at heart. Now, it strikes me as unthinkable that this would be the case, but I am not willing to ignore these things in order to maintain a warm fuzzy feeling of security.
It's just that I'd much rather be the windshield than the bug.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>If someone is a clear and present danger because of the quantities of hazardous materials they posess, or is in violation of ATFE/money laundering/tax evasion, or other laws in their EXHIBITED BEHAVIOR, they should expect to be detained while authorities start the due process of figuring out what's going on. >>
I've got 20 gallons of highly explosive gasoline in my tank, should I be worried? I use cash instead of a credit card, should I be worried? I buy bullion to maintain the value of my savings, should I be worried? My gun safe has over 2000 rounds of ammo in it, should I be worried? I speak out against my government's policies, should I be worried? Because I'm a veteran HS says I'm a potential homegrown terrorist, should I be worried?
With legislation since 9/11 designed to protect the motherland, I am worried. I see the legislation geared more for protecting officials from citizens than I see it for protecting citizens from terrorists. Our forefathers didn't give us the right to bear arms so we could protect ourselves from bad guys, they gave us the right to help us protect ourselves from greed and corruption.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Here is the link for the full act, all 565 pages of it. A friend of mine who is a lawyer, helped me out with the interpretation. NDAA2012
SEC. 1021 subsection (d) and (e) seem to be the interesting parts pertaining to U.S. citizens.
SEC. 1021. AFFIRMATION OF AUTHORITY OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES TO DETAIN COVERED PERSONS PURSUANT TO THE AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY FORCE.
(d) CONSTRUCTION. — Nothing in this section is intended to limit or expand the authority of the President or the scope of the Authorization for Use of Military Force.
Limit is the key-word here. The authority can be expanded (unlimited expansion) as the President sees fit, using unlimited military force.
(e) AUTHORITIES. — Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.
I interpret this as, it does not change or alter “existing authorities” relating to the detention of US citizens.
What is “existing authorities”? Now we get into the Patriot Act, which already identifies “existing authority". Anyone engaging in terrorist like activities can be arrested and detained without trial.
What is terrorist like activities? Storing ammo? Storing food? Taking a picture of a Government building? Ron Paul 2012 sign on my lawn? Protesting? Cashing your paycheck and not depositing it? Owning a telescope? Unaccounted bullion? Saying no to a TSA agent, who wants to strip search my 5 year-old daughter? A "Don't Tread on Me" flag flying? Seems like this is just an extension of the Patriot Act, with more to come.
I've got 20 gallons of highly explosive gasoline in my tank, should I be worried? I use cash instead of a credit card, should I be worried? I buy bullion to maintain the value of my savings, should I be worried? My gun safe has over 2000 rounds of ammo in it, should I be worried? I speak out against my government's policies, should I be worried? Because I'm a veteran HS says I'm a potential homegrown terrorist, should I be worried?
Storing ammo? Storing food? Taking a picture of a Goverment building? Ron Paul 2012 sign on my lawn? Protesting?
Really? Those are your concerns? You expect to be limited in your abilities to do those things? In my opinion, "No", you have absolutely nothing to worry about from "them". They are almost certain to leave you alone. If "they" harass you for doing those things, post it here and on YouTube and you'll be set for life with all the support you'll receive.
Unless you're splashing the gas around, doing a lot of structured $9900 transactions (that figure is on "this side" of "the line", right??), and "Advertising" all of your ammo in some way that causes noise and projectiles within city limits, that is, unless someone is complaining about you, I'd say all of those things are your own damned business, and will stay that way.
It is up to you to decide whether to spend your life energy being "worried" about doing these things.
Only YOU know if you should be afraid of Officials knocking on your door. When "the authorities" get here, I plan on inviting them in and offering them coffee while they have a look around. They will be bored senseless, but perhaps I can convince them to have a look at the house down the block with the odd odors and lots of 10 minute visitors.
Baley, with all due respect HS has made it clear they are concerned about homegrown terrorists and have publicized non-criminal behavior that they consider potentially criminal. I have no doubt they are building a database of names of individuals who exhibit these non-criminal traits.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
< When "the authorities" get here, I plan on inviting them in and offering them coffee while they have a look around>
Make sure you have Sara Lee on hand. I hear "they" love Sara Lee. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Thanks derryb. I believe you are absolutely right, They are making a list, and They are checking it twice.
We're all on lots of "Lists" for "potential behavior" (advertising/purchasing, criminal, sales/investment pitches, and otherwise)
As far as I know, US citizens have not and will not have their Liberty infringed by government for simply being on a list of currently legal behavior. It's the purposful action of individuals that causes attention to be drawn from Them and a Close Look taken at the way folks spend their time, and the product of those hours of effort.
The fact is, the best predictor of how someone will their time and money, is how they have spent their time and money
<< <i>< When "the authorities" get here, I plan on inviting them in and offering them coffee while they have a look around>
Make sure you have Sara Lee on hand. I hear "they" love Sara Lee. MJ >>
If they show up, their minds will have already been made up. It won't be for a coffee break.
Nothing wrong with being on lists, but this is one list, if SHTF, where people will be rounded up with no questions asked. And now with the unlimited power to detain without charges, it's all starting to fit together - they are preparing to quickly quell anything they see as rebellion. "Arrest them all, let God sort them out."
I think HS's biggest fear is of those they believe have prepared themselves in the event HS (or FEMA) takes control during chaos. I'm getting prepared.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I'm sorry, I know I said I wouldn't chime in anymore on this, but I completely agree with Baley on this. You have nothing to worry about unless you know you have something to worry about. I'm still waiting for the OP (or someone) to explain how the hell buying & selling precious metals could cause me to be detained as a terrorist as the OP claims could happen. This thread is absolutely and nothing more than a means to try and stir up fear, fear that you have no reason for concern for if you aren't participating in anything that could be remotely construed as any terrorist-like activity. Do you really think the military, government officials, etc. aren't going to use some common sense and come bashing thru your door unjustifyably so while your sitting down for a Sunday dinner in your home? In fact, in IN it is law that police CAN do this. This was passed just this year. I don't like it and I dont like this new Law but I have enough G-DAMN common sense to know that I am not going to be detained if I am not doing anything illegal. You shtf scenario fear mongers need to give it a rest and take a reality pill.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
It's not about fear, it's about facing reality and being prepared for the results. If things get ugly, like they have in other places where the people have had enough, a smart government will round up anyone they deem as a "potential" problem. To do this they will already have them identified. HS has already made it clear what they consider "potential" and it includes a lot of law abiding citizens, many of whom defended freedom for this country.
Many things can make it get ugly. One example: economic crises that leads to food shortages or loss of government checks will bring many people to the streets. I believe HS and FEMA have been tasked with contingency plans in the event things get ugly. Recent changes in rules and laws indicate the ducks are getting lined up just in case. Look at how HS has recently militarized local law enforcement, some of them now have tanks and drones. Check the YouTubes of the OWS protestors as they get rounded up and abused by storm troopers. Looks like something out of a futuristic science fiction movie.
"First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me."
--pastor Martin Niemöller about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group.
Don't think it can happen again?
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
It's not about fear, it's about facing reality and being prepared for the results. BS! I've got better things to do with my life than living in the kind of fear (because that's what is trying to be spread) than you guys are letting your wild imaginations run away with.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
If they show up, their minds will have already been made up. It won't be for a coffee break.
Nothing wrong with being on lists, but this is one list, if SHTF, where people will be rounded up with no questions asked. And now with the unlimited power to detain without charges, it's all starting to fit together - they are preparing to quickly quell anything they see as rebellion. "Arrest them all, let God sort them out."
I think HS's biggest fear is of those they believe have prepared themselves in the event HS (or FEMA) takes control during chaos. I'm getting prepared.
.
ahh, we're back to "lines" again
where does a "occupy event" become a destructive mob? at what point does "protest" become "rebellion", and then "treason"? when does "freedom" cross over into "anarchy", and then "barbarism"?
I sure don't know exactly, but I'm pretty sure that if They start "rounding up" guys like me and you, it will be to get us to help them restore order, unless I've misjudged you all significantly.
have publicized non-criminal behavior that they consider potentially criminal
could someone please cut n paste this list? I'd like to be clear on what we're talking about here..
"I plan on inviting them in and offering them coffee while they have a look around."
Those little lemon cakes are delicious with some dark roast Colombian.
"...quickly quell anything they see as rebellion"
Yepper, they got that in spades, what the heck do you think H S has been doing for the last 3 years. Kind of like occupy, all the occupiers did was get their names and facial features in the database...oh, a few got booked and will never work in a white collar job or have a ch l.
The way I understand your position, Baley and POM - is that there is no breach of a person's rights as long as the government doesn't actually act upon a crappy law that encroaches upon a person's rights.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Some people view themselves as either the bug or the windshield.
I feel like the guy sitting in the passenger seat, seatbelt firmly attached, sunglasses on, favorite tunes playing, cold beverage in the cup holder..........
<<I'm still waiting for the OP (or someone) to explain how the hell buying & selling precious metals could cause me to be detained as a terrorist as the OP claims could happen. This thread is absolutely and nothing more than a means to try and stir up fear, fear that you have no reason for concern for if you aren't participating in anything that could be remotely construed as any terrorist-like activity.>>
I don't have an explanation about buying n selling PM's, I'm just throwing out examples. Know one knows what terrorist like activity is, except for the ones who create the definition. I have a "Don't Tread on Me" flag waving from my house, does this qualify me as a potential threat? I don't know. I didn't want to create fear, I felt it necessary to post this major act. The scary part is mainstream media says nothing about it and no one I've talked to has heard the term NDAA. If it's meant to protect us and save us from terrorists, why isn't it on the nightly news? I love my country, I've served my country.
If its such a harmless law why did it need to be passed? This was more important than addressing the issues we have with our economy? How much time was spent deliberating this garbage and the silly 2 month payroll tax cut extension but the super committee couldn't make any headway on cutting the deficit?
Just like the situation with MF global customers allocated bullion being seized in the bankruptcy due to some obscure change in a 2005 law of 170 pages , what surprises are in this 500+ page law that no one but a lawyer can read?
HS has made it clear they are concerned about homegrown terrorists and have publicized non-criminal behavior that they consider potentially criminal. I have no doubt they are building a database of names of individuals who exhibit these non-criminal traits.
could someone please cut n paste this list? I'd like to be clear on what we're talking about here..
<< <i>Some people view themselves as either the bug or the windshield.
I feel like the guy sitting in the passenger seat, seatbelt firmly attached, sunglasses on, favorite tunes playing, cold beverage in the cup holder.......... >>
Some folks are more comfortable staying at the Hotel Eyes Wide Shut while other like the Paranoid Motor Lodge.
This law does make me a little queasy. When things are done in small doses one tends not to notice or feel it. Sort of like the de-valuing of the dollar duing the past 90 some years.
Chipping away at our liberties one law at a time. drip, drip, drip.............
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Some people view themselves as either the bug or the windshield.
I feel like the guy sitting in the passenger seat, seatbelt firmly attached, sunglasses on, favorite tunes playing, cold beverage in the cup holder.......... >>
Some folks are more comfortable staying at the Hotel Eyes Wide Shut while other like the Paranoid Motor Lodge.
This law does make me a little queasy. When things are done in small doses one tends not to notice or feel it. Sort of like the de-valuing of the dollar duing the past 90 some years.
Chipping away at our liberties one law at a time. drip, drip, drip.............
MJ >>
I'm not in the trunk with a blind fold and I'm obviously not driving this thing. Just sitting here in the front seat watching it all unfold. I've tasted enough 'bug' in my life to feel comfortable enough not being the windshield anymore. This does not mean I'm enjoying the ride nor does it mean I can't see the road.
When things are done in small doses one tends not to notice or feel it
You mean like the Patriot Act? That opened the door, this allows the door to be steamrolled by a Mack truck.
This is the point I'm trying to make without pointing a political finger. I hate the Patriot Act, I hate this new law...but both are just that, law now. Is it not what we should do, follow the law? Maybe I will be viewed as ignorant or naive for what I have said about this so far, but I assure you I am not, that's why I hate the fact that they are law. But I have faith that these laws are and will be used with discretion by those who can enforce it and I still strongly feel that you have nothing to worry about if you don't have anything TO BE worried about.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
" take a minute and look up Habeas corpus in Wikipedia... Then tell me you don't think your rights as a citizen of the US have now been abridged. Then tell me you don't think it's important. This is one of the basic principles that this country was founded upon"
OK. I'm already familiar with the term, but went ahead and looked it up as requested. Found this particularly relevant:
The U.S. Constitution specifically includes the habeas procedure in the Suspension Clause (Clause 2), located in Article One, Section 9. This states that "The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion, the public safety may require it." (emphasis added)
The Founding Fathers were practical men who understood distinctions.
Yes, I think it's important. No, I don't think my rights have been abridged.
edit: But I'm perfectly willing to feel violated on your behalf. Which of YOUR rights, specifically, has been abridged?
Do you carry a spare tire in your trunk because you are paranoid or because as a realist you know what can happen and want to be prepared?
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>Some people view themselves as either the bug or the windshield.
I feel like the guy sitting in the passenger seat, seatbelt firmly attached, sunglasses on, favorite tunes playing, cold beverage in the cup holder.......... >>
Some folks are more comfortable staying at the Hotel Eyes Wide Shut while other like the Paranoid Motor Lodge.
This law does make me a little queasy. When things are done in small doses one tends not to notice or feel it. Sort of like the de-valuing of the dollar duing the past 90 some years.
Chipping away at our liberties one law at a time. drip, drip, drip.............
MJ >>
I'm not in the trunk with a blind fold and I'm obviously not driving this thing. Just sitting here in the front seat watching it all unfold. I've tasted enough 'bug' in my life to feel comfortable enough not being the windshield anymore. This does not mean I'm enjoying the ride nor does it mean I can't see the road. >>
I call shotgun. I'll do the road trip with you. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Baley, you just said it yourself: in cases of rebellion or invasion, the public safety may require it
Whoa! Do we have a rebellion or an invasion on our hands? Note the distinction. Habeus corpus has *already* been suspended with the enactment of this law and there is no rebellion or invasion. Maybe you don't consider that an abridgement of your Constitutional Rights, but I believe that I do.
It's outrageous that the president can go to war without a declaration, and now - that the Constitution can be suspended *without* a rebellion or an invasion.
Lawyers can tie you up in knots with legalese and eventually there's nothing you can do about it. Baley, if you think this is trivial, that's your perogative. I'm a bit concerned over this trend in general and these new laws specifically.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>I see the legislation geared more for protecting officials from citizens than I see it for protecting citizens from terrorists. >>
+1
Yes I do believe our govt has kept a very close eye on the OWS and what has been going on in all of the countries in the ME, protests in Russia, etc...
If the OWS had kept gaining enough momentum and more and more people were flooding the streets, do you think that Congress would have quickly changed laws to appease the people, or brought out the National Guard? I think the latter. That being said I don't feel that I do anything that will "get my house raided", but it bothers me greatly that our govt is incrementally undoing the laws that our founding fathers set up to protect us from big govt.
Habeus corpus has *already* been suspended with the enactment of this law
"Has" it been suspended? Is all that is necessary and sufficient to deny due process, the passing of a law? That seems to be the crux of the matter.
IMO, the writ is not suspended until, on a case by case basis, specific individual persons are denied the rights of due process (i.e. held without charges named, not faced a judge, denied representation, etc) and that has not happened to anyone who has posted (so far)
It would appear that this new law, as with the patriot act, seeks to define and refine the conditions and remedies governing the crisis management that the Founders forsaw as possible reasons to broadly (e.g, apply to ordinary folk) suspend the writ of habeus corpus.
Chaotic, destructive mass hysteria (riots, mobs, brawls) and organized crime are the usual causes for temporary suspension. Naturally, not everyone agrees with these suspensions, particularly those people denied freedom (locked up) and their friends and family. Nevertheless,
Cops can't effectively step into a bar fight or gun running operation and go, "ahem, gentlemen citizens, let us redress our grievances in the court of law according to the Constitution!"
They have to go in and thump heads and calm everyone the f*@< down and secure life and property, and then ask them each separately, "ok, what's YOUR story, and let's be honest" and then the innocent guys go home and the guilty guys get their due process. Untangling really complex operations like modern organized crime and terrorism must be difficult and dangerous, and innocent guys who just happen to fit behavior profiles of criminals should not be suprised at the inevitable misunderstandings.
I strongly agree with everyone who says that this is another step in a series of compromises we are being forced to make to keep living in modern America. I also wish it weren't so. I view this law as the -threat- to put down chaos and restore order if necessary, not the actuality of it. At least we're still free to vote, or to move somewhere better if the police state becomes too oppressive in our current location. I also agree that the most likely place we'll see this law in effect in the USA is at some Occupy thing, so maybe someday after this thread sinks, it'll rise again due to news. Thanks to all for the commentary today, it's been enjoyable.
<< <i>innocent guys who just happen to fit behavior profiles of criminals should not be suprised at the inevitable misunderstandings >>
Courts, made up of a jury of your peers, were designed to resolve misunderstandings, not law enforcement personnel or the US military.
<< <i>I view this law as the -threat- to put down chaos and restore order if necessary, not the actuality of it. >>
We already have plenty of laws to put down chaos and restore order as well as laws to deal with terrorists.
This provision of the recent law to continue funding the military is nothing more than: (1) an effort to instill fear in those that would use their constitutional right to disagree with their politicians (2) another dot leading to the control and silencing of those that choose to publicly disagree with their politicians. Start connecting the dots.
To understand my way of seeing this one must first realize that most national leaders and lawmakers answer to a corrupt, higher authority. I believe it to be Wall Street led by a small, elite group of international bankers.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
We already have plenty of laws to put down chaos and restore order as well as laws to deal with terrorists.
And they obviously don't work or else "Occupy" would've never gotten to the point it has, so something more ridiculous was viewed as being needed. I thank "Occupy" for this passing because BO can see down the road how much worse things are going to quickly become, so now it's on the books. Welcome to life in the US in 2012 everyone. The Land where knee jerk over reactions rule the Land.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
Baley, it's undeniable that we have a tax cheat as Secretary of the Treasury. These people are not honest and they do not have your best interests at heart. Now, it strikes me as unthinkable that this would be the case, but I am not willing to ignore these things in order to maintain a warm fuzzy feeling of security.
It's just that I'd much rather be the windshield than the bug.
Most of Congress has access to insider trading information but there is no law saying they cannot use this information. Many come out of Congress Millionaires. Even Dodd got good mortgage rate deals from Countrywide that no one else did.Dodd and Countrywide
<<We already have plenty of laws to put down chaos and restore order as well as laws to deal with terrorists.>>
And they obviously don't work or else "Occupy" would've never gotten to the point it has, so something more ridiculous was viewed as being needed. I thank "Occupy" for this passing because BO can see down the road how much worse things are going to quickly become, so now it's on the books. Welcome to life in the US in 2012 everyone. The Land where knee jerk over reactions rule the Land.
I agree with derryb. The laws don't work if the Mayor Bloombergs of the world don't choose to have them enforced before public streets and parks are trashed out by people who have no respect for public or private property.
They have a right to peacably assemble for protest, but not to trash public and private property or to impede other people's right to go to work without being harrassed.
I might agree with some of the issues that the OWS protesters allege, but not all of the issues. And I might agree with some of their tactics, but not all of them. The existing laws would have been just fine, and in fact I am not aware that any emergency status was invoked. Bad management is always part of the problem. If you don't set down firm rules to protect the flow of everyday life, someone will find ways to abuse the status quo.
Be careful what you wish for.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
"There were more than one hundred dead and wounded, including children and babies,in 1932 when US troops dispersed a camp of WW1 veterans demanding only what had been promised them."Ernest Smith.
The powers that be will always use whatever they deem necessary. Take care. jws
Comments
<< <i>If i were detained without due process, interrogated, etc, while I'm minding my own business (going to work, raising a family, entertaining myself with sports programming and internet chat boards), I'd be outraged. >>
So only if it were while you were minding your own business? I'm curious - In what circumstances would you not be outraged if you were detained and interrogated without due process?
Me, I can't think of any.
Well, like my daddy said,"son you can't argue with women or ignorance as you can't win!"
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety".~Benjamin Franklin.
Me, I can't think of any.
You make my point for me. You or I will NOT be detained or interrogated without due process. I see nothing in the law about random, wasteful harassment of ordinary people. Attempts to portray the intention of this legislation as to confiscate normal people's time and money rings hollow to me. OF COURSE we'd be outraged if that came to pass. But it won't
If someone is a clear and present danger because of the quantities of hazardous materials they posess, or is in violation of ATFE/money laundering/tax evasion, or other laws in their EXHIBITED BEHAVIOR, they should expect to be detained while authorities start the due process of figuring out what's going on.
For example, if I go to buy one or two bottles of cough syrup or sudafed, no problem, flash ID, pay, in and out of the store no problem. Who cares if the Gov't "knows" about my purchase?
I shouldn't be surprised to receive questions if I try to buy 100 packages.
Perhaps too many guilty people are getting away on technicalities, and some loopholes need to be closed, I dunno, I'm trying to learn about this stuff too. It just seems like an emergency public safety situation would be the only time that suspects' "rights to due process" might be temporarily suspended. Authorities will be very careful about this, because, as this reactionary thread would seem to indicate, folks are very sensitive about potential abuses of governmental power.
Edit: I see that GSA has cut and pasted the Franklin quote yet again, and added some more name calling in his analysis. Here, this brilliant insight is just for you:
Now, GSA, how about taking the time to explain to the Dummy, in English words, just exactly what YOU are so terrified about?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>So only if it were while you were minding your own business? I'm curious - In what circumstances would you not be outraged if you were detained and interrogated without due process?
Me, I can't think of any.
You make my point for me. You or I will NOT be detained or interrogated without due process. I see nothing in the law about random, wasteful harassment of ordinary people. Attempts to portray the intention of this legislation as to confiscate normal people's time and money rings hollow to me.
>>
It's frighteningly naive to believe that the government will only use some power (any power) in ways we expect or believe are appropriate, and will never abuse or mistakenly apply its power and authority. Right to due process is how we verify the government acts within its appropriate authority in the exercise of its powers against the people. Without due process there is no guarantee that government follows the rule of law. Without a rule of law we live in a totalitarian state where government is free to act without regard for the rights of its citizens.
And, notice, no one has yet explained how they expect it to adversely affect them.
Wonder why no one can come up with even ONE specific example?
Gecko is right, we heard a lot of this clamor over the Patriot Act. I've never been "Patriot Acted", have you? Has anyone you know? If so, why were they? How has it turned out?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Google "falsely accused of terrorism" link to see many examples of innocent people who'd still be in jail if they had been deprived of due process, as this law allows.
So, where do you draw the line? I'm sure there is a philosophical essay on these types of "can't win" situations. But that is where we find ourselves today. And that being the case, we are absolutely vulnerable to the justifications that any administration might conjure up to suit their need, whether real, imagined, or simply a baldfaced lie. It doesn't matter.
That's why checks and balances *were* part of the design. The problem is that these checks & balances are being dismantled. So, the question becomes - what kind of system do you want to end up with? I'm not in favor of these changes and I believe them to be extremely radical and dangerous. I'm not in favor of a "benevolent dictatorship".
I knew it would happen.
Neither am I, my friend. I'm just trying to understand what area of my life and behavior i can worry about and expect to be "dictated"
I spend my time and conduct my business no where near any moral or legal "lines". I've found in life that those who spend time debating where "the line" is are trying to get away with something.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I spend my time and conduct my business no where near any moral or legal "lines". I've found in life that those who spend time debating where "the line" is are trying to get away with something.
Ditto, my friend.
Baley, it's undeniable that we have a tax cheat as Secretary of the Treasury. These people are not honest and they do not have your best interests at heart. Now, it strikes me as unthinkable that this would be the case, but I am not willing to ignore these things in order to maintain a warm fuzzy feeling of security.
It's just that I'd much rather be the windshield than the bug.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>If someone is a clear and present danger because of the quantities of hazardous materials they posess, or is in violation of ATFE/money laundering/tax evasion, or other laws in their EXHIBITED BEHAVIOR, they should expect to be detained while authorities start the due process of figuring out what's going on. >>
I've got 20 gallons of highly explosive gasoline in my tank, should I be worried?
I use cash instead of a credit card, should I be worried?
I buy bullion to maintain the value of my savings, should I be worried?
My gun safe has over 2000 rounds of ammo in it, should I be worried?
I speak out against my government's policies, should I be worried?
Because I'm a veteran HS says I'm a potential homegrown terrorist, should I be worried?
With legislation since 9/11 designed to protect the motherland, I am worried. I see the legislation geared more for protecting officials from citizens than I see it for protecting citizens from terrorists. Our forefathers didn't give us the right to bear arms so we could protect ourselves from bad guys, they gave us the right to help us protect ourselves from greed and corruption.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
NDAA2012
SEC. 1021 subsection (d) and (e) seem to be the interesting parts pertaining to U.S. citizens.
SEC. 1021. AFFIRMATION OF AUTHORITY OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES TO
DETAIN COVERED PERSONS PURSUANT TO THE AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY FORCE.
(d) CONSTRUCTION. — Nothing in this section is intended to limit or expand the authority of the President or
the scope of the Authorization for Use of Military Force.
Limit is the key-word here. The authority can be expanded (unlimited expansion) as the President sees fit, using unlimited military force.
(e) AUTHORITIES. — Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to
the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons
who are captured or arrested in the United States.
I interpret this as, it does not change or alter “existing authorities” relating to the detention of US citizens.
What is “existing authorities”? Now we get into the Patriot Act, which already identifies “existing authority".
Anyone engaging in terrorist like activities can be arrested and detained without trial.
What is terrorist like activities? Storing ammo? Storing food? Taking a picture of a Government building?
Ron Paul 2012 sign on my lawn? Protesting? Cashing your paycheck and not depositing it?
Owning a telescope? Unaccounted bullion? Saying no to a TSA agent, who wants to strip search my 5 year-old daughter?
A "Don't Tread on Me" flag flying?
Seems like this is just an extension of the Patriot Act, with more to come.
I use cash instead of a credit card, should I be worried?
I buy bullion to maintain the value of my savings, should I be worried?
My gun safe has over 2000 rounds of ammo in it, should I be worried?
I speak out against my government's policies, should I be worried?
Because I'm a veteran HS says I'm a potential homegrown terrorist, should I be worried?
Storing ammo? Storing food? Taking a picture of a Goverment building?
Ron Paul 2012 sign on my lawn? Protesting?
Really? Those are your concerns? You expect to be limited in your abilities to do those things? In my opinion, "No", you have absolutely nothing to worry about from "them". They are almost certain to leave you alone. If "they" harass you for doing those things, post it here and on YouTube and you'll be set for life with all the support you'll receive.
Unless you're splashing the gas around, doing a lot of structured $9900 transactions (that figure is on "this side" of "the line", right??), and "Advertising" all of your ammo in some way that causes noise and projectiles within city limits, that is, unless someone is complaining about you, I'd say all of those things are your own damned business, and will stay that way.
It is up to you to decide whether to spend your life energy being "worried" about doing these things.
Only YOU know if you should be afraid of Officials knocking on your door. When "the authorities" get here, I plan on inviting them in and offering them coffee while they have a look around. They will be bored senseless, but perhaps I can convince them to have a look at the house down the block with the odd odors and lots of 10 minute visitors.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
With all the access to info, gets you thinking. Know what I mean?
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Make sure you have Sara Lee on hand. I hear "they" love Sara Lee. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
We're all on lots of "Lists" for "potential behavior" (advertising/purchasing, criminal, sales/investment pitches, and otherwise)
As far as I know, US citizens have not and will not have their Liberty infringed by government for simply being on a list of currently legal behavior. It's the purposful action of individuals that causes attention to be drawn from Them and a Close Look taken at the way folks spend their time, and the product of those hours of effort.
The fact is, the best predictor of how someone will their time and money, is how they have spent their time and money
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>< When "the authorities" get here, I plan on inviting them in and offering them coffee while they have a look around>
Make sure you have Sara Lee on hand. I hear "they" love Sara Lee. MJ >>
If they show up, their minds will have already been made up. It won't be for a coffee break.
Nothing wrong with being on lists, but this is one list, if SHTF, where people will be rounded up with no questions asked. And now with the unlimited power to detain without charges, it's all starting to fit together - they are preparing to quickly quell anything they see as rebellion. "Arrest them all, let God sort them out."
I think HS's biggest fear is of those they believe have prepared themselves in the event HS (or FEMA) takes control during chaos. I'm getting prepared.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I'm still waiting for the OP (or someone) to explain how the hell buying & selling precious metals could cause me to be detained as a terrorist as the OP claims could happen. This thread is absolutely and nothing more than a means to try and stir up fear, fear that you have no reason for concern for if you aren't participating in anything that could be remotely construed as any terrorist-like activity.
Do you really think the military, government officials, etc. aren't going to use some common sense and come bashing thru your door unjustifyably so while your sitting down for a Sunday dinner in your home?
In fact, in IN it is law that police CAN do this. This was passed just this year. I don't like it and I dont like this new Law but I have enough G-DAMN common sense to know that I am not going to be detained if I am not doing anything illegal. You shtf scenario fear mongers need to give it a rest and take a reality pill.
Many things can make it get ugly. One example: economic crises that leads to food shortages or loss of government checks will bring many people to the streets. I believe HS and FEMA have been tasked with contingency plans in the event things get ugly. Recent changes in rules and laws indicate the ducks are getting lined up just in case. Look at how HS has recently militarized local law enforcement, some of them now have tanks and drones. Check the YouTubes of the OWS protestors as they get rounded up and abused by storm troopers. Looks like something out of a futuristic science fiction movie.
"First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me."
--pastor Martin Niemöller about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group.
Don't think it can happen again?
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
BS! I've got better things to do with my life than living in the kind of fear (because that's what is trying to be spread) than you guys are letting your wild imaginations run away with.
Nothing wrong with being on lists, but this is one list, if SHTF, where people will be rounded up with no questions asked. And now with the unlimited power to detain without charges, it's all starting to fit together - they are preparing to quickly quell anything they see as rebellion. "Arrest them all, let God sort them out."
I think HS's biggest fear is of those they believe have prepared themselves in the event HS (or FEMA) takes control during chaos. I'm getting prepared.
.
ahh, we're back to "lines" again
where does a "occupy event" become a destructive mob?
at what point does "protest" become "rebellion", and then "treason"?
when does "freedom" cross over into "anarchy", and then "barbarism"?
I sure don't know exactly, but I'm pretty sure that if They start "rounding up" guys like me and you, it will be to get us to help them restore order, unless I've misjudged you all significantly.
have publicized non-criminal behavior that they consider potentially criminal
could someone please cut n paste this list? I'd like to be clear on what we're talking about here..
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Then tell me you don't think your rights as a citizen of the US have now been abridged.
Then tell me you don't think it's important.
This is one of the basic principles that this country was founded upon.
I knew it would happen.
Those little lemon cakes are delicious with some dark roast Colombian.
"...quickly quell anything they see as rebellion"
Yepper, they got that in spades, what the heck do you think H S has been doing for the last 3 years. Kind of like occupy, all the occupiers did was get their names and facial features in the database...oh, a few got booked and will never work in a white collar job or have a ch l.
I knew it would happen.
in case you can't understand the lyrics
New Years eve when the country is unaware WTF is happening.
How many Laws actually get repealed once passed?~ Slim & none.
I feel like the guy sitting in the passenger seat, seatbelt firmly attached, sunglasses on, favorite tunes playing, cold beverage in the cup holder..........
I don't have an explanation about buying n selling PM's, I'm just throwing out examples.
Know one knows what terrorist like activity is, except for the ones who create the definition.
I have a "Don't Tread on Me" flag waving from my house, does this qualify me as a potential threat? I don't know.
I didn't want to create fear, I felt it necessary to post this major act. The scary part is
mainstream media says nothing about it and no one I've talked to has heard the term NDAA. If it's meant to protect us
and save us from terrorists, why isn't it on the nightly news? I love my country, I've served my country.
If its such a harmless law why did it need to be passed? This was more important than addressing the issues we have with our economy? How much time was spent deliberating this garbage and the silly 2 month payroll tax cut extension but the super committee couldn't make any headway on cutting the deficit?
Just like the situation with MF global customers allocated bullion being seized in the bankruptcy due to some obscure change in a 2005 law of 170 pages , what surprises are in this 500+ page law that no one but a lawyer can read?
Five years from now I guess we will find out
could someone please cut n paste this list? I'd like to be clear on what we're talking about here..
You do it. I don't want it in my Search History
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Some people view themselves as either the bug or the windshield.
I feel like the guy sitting in the passenger seat, seatbelt firmly attached, sunglasses on, favorite tunes playing, cold beverage in the cup holder.......... >>
Some folks are more comfortable staying at the Hotel Eyes Wide Shut while other like the Paranoid Motor Lodge.
This law does make me a little queasy. When things are done in small doses one tends not to notice or feel it. Sort of like the de-valuing of the dollar duing the past 90 some years.
Chipping away at our liberties one law at a time. drip, drip, drip.............
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>Some people view themselves as either the bug or the windshield.
I feel like the guy sitting in the passenger seat, seatbelt firmly attached, sunglasses on, favorite tunes playing, cold beverage in the cup holder.......... >>
Some folks are more comfortable staying at the Hotel Eyes Wide Shut while other like the Paranoid Motor Lodge.
This law does make me a little queasy. When things are done in small doses one tends not to notice or feel it. Sort of like the de-valuing of the dollar duing the past 90 some years.
Chipping away at our liberties one law at a time. drip, drip, drip.............
MJ >>
I'm not in the trunk with a blind fold and I'm obviously not driving this thing.
Just sitting here in the front seat watching it all unfold.
I've tasted enough 'bug' in my life to feel comfortable enough not being the windshield anymore.
This does not mean I'm enjoying the ride nor does it mean I can't see the road.
You mean like the Patriot Act? That opened the door, this allows the door to be steamrolled by a Mack truck.
This is the point I'm trying to make without pointing a political finger.
I hate the Patriot Act, I hate this new law...but both are just that, law now. Is it not what we should do, follow the law?
Maybe I will be viewed as ignorant or naive for what I have said about this so far, but I assure you I am not, that's why I hate the fact that they are law.
But I have faith that these laws are and will be used with discretion by those who can enforce it and I still strongly feel that you have nothing to worry about if you don't have anything TO BE worried about.
Then tell me you don't think your rights as a citizen of the US have now been abridged.
Then tell me you don't think it's important.
This is one of the basic principles that this country was founded upon"
OK. I'm already familiar with the term, but went ahead and looked it up as requested. Found this particularly relevant:
The U.S. Constitution specifically includes the habeas procedure in the Suspension Clause (Clause 2), located in Article One, Section 9. This states that "The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion, the public safety may require it." (emphasis added)
The Founding Fathers were practical men who understood distinctions.
Yes, I think it's important. No, I don't think my rights have been abridged.
edit: But I'm perfectly willing to feel violated on your behalf. Which of YOUR rights, specifically, has been abridged?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
So this Law was passed because of the Occupiers
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Some people view themselves as either the bug or the windshield.
I feel like the guy sitting in the passenger seat, seatbelt firmly attached, sunglasses on, favorite tunes playing, cold beverage in the cup holder.......... >>
Some folks are more comfortable staying at the Hotel Eyes Wide Shut while other like the Paranoid Motor Lodge.
This law does make me a little queasy. When things are done in small doses one tends not to notice or feel it. Sort of like the de-valuing of the dollar duing the past 90 some years.
Chipping away at our liberties one law at a time. drip, drip, drip.............
MJ >>
I'm not in the trunk with a blind fold and I'm obviously not driving this thing.
Just sitting here in the front seat watching it all unfold.
I've tasted enough 'bug' in my life to feel comfortable enough not being the windshield anymore.
This does not mean I'm enjoying the ride nor does it mean I can't see the road.
I call shotgun. I'll do the road trip with you. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Whoa! Do we have a rebellion or an invasion on our hands? Note the distinction. Habeus corpus has *already* been suspended with the enactment of this law and there is no rebellion or invasion. Maybe you don't consider that an abridgement of your Constitutional Rights, but I believe that I do.
It's outrageous that the president can go to war without a declaration, and now - that the Constitution can be suspended *without* a rebellion or an invasion.
Lawyers can tie you up in knots with legalese and eventually there's nothing you can do about it. Baley, if you think this is trivial, that's your perogative. I'm a bit concerned over this trend in general and these new laws specifically.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>I see the legislation geared more for protecting officials from citizens than I see it for protecting citizens from terrorists. >>
+1
Yes I do believe our govt has kept a very close eye on the OWS and what has been going on in all of the countries in the ME, protests in Russia, etc...
If the OWS had kept gaining enough momentum and more and more people were flooding the streets, do you think that Congress would have quickly changed laws to appease the people, or brought out the National Guard? I think the latter. That being said I don't feel that I do anything that will "get my house raided", but it bothers me greatly that our govt is incrementally undoing the laws that our founding fathers set up to protect us from big govt.
"Has" it been suspended? Is all that is necessary and sufficient to deny due process, the passing of a law? That seems to be the crux of the matter.
IMO, the writ is not suspended until, on a case by case basis, specific individual persons are denied the rights of due process (i.e. held without charges named, not faced a judge, denied representation, etc) and that has not happened to anyone who has posted (so far)
It would appear that this new law, as with the patriot act, seeks to define and refine the conditions and remedies governing the crisis management that the Founders forsaw as possible reasons to broadly (e.g, apply to ordinary folk) suspend the writ of habeus corpus.
Chaotic, destructive mass hysteria (riots, mobs, brawls) and organized crime are the usual causes for temporary suspension. Naturally, not everyone agrees with these suspensions, particularly those people denied freedom (locked up) and their friends and family. Nevertheless,
Cops can't effectively step into a bar fight or gun running operation and go, "ahem, gentlemen citizens, let us redress our grievances in the court of law according to the Constitution!"
They have to go in and thump heads and calm everyone the f*@< down and secure life and property, and then ask them each separately, "ok, what's YOUR story, and let's be honest" and then the innocent guys go home and the guilty guys get their due process. Untangling really complex operations like modern organized crime and terrorism must be difficult and dangerous, and innocent guys who just happen to fit behavior profiles of criminals should not be suprised at the inevitable misunderstandings.
I strongly agree with everyone who says that this is another step in a series of compromises we are being forced to make to keep living in modern America. I also wish it weren't so. I view this law as the -threat- to put down chaos and restore order if necessary, not the actuality of it. At least we're still free to vote, or to move somewhere better if the police state becomes too oppressive in our current location. I also agree that the most likely place we'll see this law in effect in the USA is at some Occupy thing, so maybe someday after this thread sinks, it'll rise again due to news. Thanks to all for the commentary today, it's been enjoyable.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Freedom of speech = "was" once a right.
<< <i>innocent guys who just happen to fit behavior profiles of criminals should not be suprised at the inevitable misunderstandings >>
Courts, made up of a jury of your peers, were designed to resolve misunderstandings, not law enforcement personnel or the US military.
<< <i>I view this law as the -threat- to put down chaos and restore order if necessary, not the actuality of it. >>
We already have plenty of laws to put down chaos and restore order as well as laws to deal with terrorists.
This provision of the recent law to continue funding the military is nothing more than:
(1) an effort to instill fear in those that would use their constitutional right to disagree with their politicians
(2) another dot leading to the control and silencing of those that choose to publicly disagree with their politicians. Start connecting the dots.
To understand my way of seeing this one must first realize that most national leaders and lawmakers answer to a corrupt, higher authority. I believe it to be Wall Street led by a small, elite group of international bankers.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
And they obviously don't work or else "Occupy" would've never gotten to the point it has, so something more ridiculous was viewed as being needed. I thank "Occupy" for this passing because BO can see down the road how much worse things are going to quickly become, so now it's on the books. Welcome to life in the US in 2012 everyone. The Land where knee jerk over reactions rule the Land.
It's just that I'd much rather be the windshield than the bug.
Most of Congress has access to insider trading information but there is no law saying they cannot use this information. Many come out of Congress Millionaires. Even Dodd got good mortgage rate deals from Countrywide that no one else did.Dodd and Countrywide
Congress and Insider Trading
Box of 20
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
And they obviously don't work or else "Occupy" would've never gotten to the point it has, so something more ridiculous was viewed as being needed. I thank "Occupy" for this passing because BO can see down the road how much worse things are going to quickly become, so now it's on the books. Welcome to life in the US in 2012 everyone. The Land where knee jerk over reactions rule the Land.
I agree with derryb. The laws don't work if the Mayor Bloombergs of the world don't choose to have them enforced before public streets and parks are trashed out by people who have no respect for public or private property.
They have a right to peacably assemble for protest, but not to trash public and private property or to impede other people's right to go to work without being harrassed.
I might agree with some of the issues that the OWS protesters allege, but not all of the issues. And I might agree with some of their tactics, but not all of them. The existing laws would have been just fine, and in fact I am not aware that any emergency status was invoked. Bad management is always part of the problem. If you don't set down firm rules to protect the flow of everyday life, someone will find ways to abuse the status quo.
Be careful what you wish for.
I knew it would happen.
Box of 20
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
The powers that be will always use whatever they deem necessary. Take care. jws