All Time Great QBs Set

rexvos · December 27, 2011 7:34AM

Does anyone think that it is about time we add Drew Brees 2001 Topps Chrome RC to the set?

MBMiller25 · December 27, 2011 8:19AM

I am not participating in the set, so I am quite nuetral, but based on stats alone, I don't see how he can't be apart of the set.

Zeeck · December 27, 2011 9:52AM

I think his accomplishments say yes.

shagrotn77 · December 27, 2011 11:45AM

I vote yes despite the fact that I don't have his rookie yet.

jay0791 · December 27, 2011 7:52PM

I vote no until I get his rookie

shagrotn77 · December 28, 2011 12:39AM

I was bidding on this Brees 9 until I realized the seller is shilling the crap out of it with 2***t.

Shill Bill

Fabfrank · December 28, 2011 2:52AM

I have his Rc's and would vote no. I think the collectors who have been in the set from the beginning have gotten a sour taste of adding a player pre-maturely, having him removed, than adding him again at a later date (Brief synopsis of the Kurt Warner saga). I think it's wiser to wait till a players career is over when considering them for the all-time great sets. Brees is a great QB, but on the cusp of being an all-time great IMO. I would rather wait.

FavreFan1971 · December 28, 2011 3:28AM

Brees deserves to be in the set WHEN he retires. I think there should be a rule that no player is added while they are an active player.

jradke4 · December 28, 2011 4:02AM

i have to agree with frank and troy...unless its pretty clear as they and in the home strecth of their careers. clearly peyton and brady belong in the set already...but i would agree with letting brees wait a bit. yes is nice he broke marino's record the other day. but then again rodgers is likely to break mannings QB rating record this season too. to be honest i am not overally impressed with the break of the record this season. several other QBs are in line to eclipse marino's mark or end up shy only because of either being pulled from games with a quarter left or maybe not even playing a half in the final game. not to mention there are qbs out there that have better yards per attempt than brees as well, so he is passing quite a bit in each game.

brees is real close to getting to the level of adding him but i think we need to wait a little longer.

now the question about this set...i know for RBs and WRs there are/were stats markers that needed to be reached for most to consider a player ready for voting...does the all time QB set have a similar stat # to attain? and if so what is it? that might helps us all with brees situation.

rexvos · December 28, 2011 8:22AM

Wow. I could not disagree more with a few of the opinions. I think Brees has already earned the right to be there, not just with eye popping numbers but leading a franchise that was a laughing stock to a Super Bowl victory. He is truly one of the all time greats.

shagrotn77 · December 28, 2011 10:26AM

<< now the question about this set...i know for RBs and WRs there are/were stats markers that needed to be reached for most to consider a player ready for voting...does the all time QB set have a similar stat # to attain? and if so what is it? that might helps us all with brees situation. >>

10,000 yards for rushers and 12,000 yards/800 catches for receivers used to be the automatic numbers, but that was discontinued. There was never an automatic number for QBs. Now you just have to submit the request across the board and PSA will poll the set registrants.

Fabfrank · December 28, 2011 10:38AM

My hesitance to just readily admit a player into the all-time great sets is that it should be a "no brainer". The player should have a complete body of work (at end or towards end of career) to be fairly considered. There shouldn't be a rush because someone has recently broken a record, or having an amazing season.
A recent example is Devin Hester. A few years ago it seemed he was running back every kick off and punt for a TD. There was a push to have him included in the future HOF set. Now Hester is a wonderful player, but there was a push for him to be entered into a set because after 3 years and an 1 electrfying season, he was being touted as HOF worthy.
Now this may be a bit of an extreme example compared to Brees, but my point is, just like when a player is HOF worthy, there should be no arguement when a player gets added to any all-time great set.

PowderedH2O · December 28, 2011 12:15PM

So, if Brees were to lead the Saints to another Super Bowl win this season and in the process wins Super Bowl MVP with some sort of Joe Montana-esque drive in the 4th quarter, would the jury still be out on him? He's still young, relatively, but numerous passing records and multiple Super Bowl wins should be a Canton ticket in my book. Actually, I think Brees is closing in on Canton pretty rapidly as it is, even if he never wins another playoff game.

JasP24 · December 28, 2011 1:40PM

<< So, if Brees were to lead the Saints to another Super Bowl win this season and in the process wins Super Bowl MVP with some sort of Joe Montana-esque drive in the 4th quarter, would the jury still be out on him? He's still young, relatively, but numerous passing records and multiple Super Bowl wins should be a Canton ticket in my book. Actually, I think Brees is closing in on Canton pretty rapidly as it is, even if he never wins another playoff game. >>

If Brees were to pull a Dante Culpepper in his next game, and either never played again or was a player of far less value the remainder of his career, he would not be a HOFer. There are QBs with 2 Super Bowl/NFL Championship wins who are not in Canton. There are also QB's who were setting records and winning MVP awards during their playing days who are also not in Canton.

I don't collect the set and have no horse in this race. Just giving my opinion based on my experience as a HOF buff...

He's getting close for sure, but if he is added, you are running the risk that he could later be voted off as no longer deserving. Guys like Peyton and Brady have resumes that they couldn't screw up enough to not make the HOF or be considered an all-timer...Brees isn't quite on that level yet...Give him a few more great years before anointing him a HOF lock or All-Time Great. I guess I never understood what the rush is/was to add current players to these sets. Is there a downside to waiting? Because there certainly is a downside if you don't!

Good luck with it fellas! You can always request it and let the collectors decide...Just keep in mind PSA won't keep sending polls out every 12 months for the same guy...He gets voted down and you won't have to worry about waiting anymore, because it will be years before they do another poll for him...

Jason

jay0791 · December 28, 2011 8:37PM

Frank, Jason,Troy are right.

Brees is a great player. No argument on this board at all.
5 pro bowls that mean very little compared to what thay were years ago.
Only 1 all pro for Brees. How many 1 time'ers are in the HOf? probably none.

This year 3 qb's were close to danny's record. In all the NFL shows...the commentators still say which 3 qbs are the mvp?
If the Pac take the SB (is the vote before the playoffs?) is Rodgers the MVP? He was the shoo-in when they wre undefeated.

Roger Maris won 2 MVP's and had the season of all seasons...breaking the most beloved record in sports from the most beloved sports
personnality in 1961. That doesn't make him a hofer or all time player.

alnavman · December 28, 2011 10:35PM

I am sure glad that "Tebow" isn't appearing in this thread, I'm already on overload about how great he is. Nothing against the guy but ... hey, he is being way overhyped in my opinion on the networks....and yes, this probably belongs in another thread so I apologize.

al.

epatmythes · December 29, 2011 4:02AM

This thread, and the dozens (hundreds?) like it before, are why I will no longer work on "all-time" sets here.

To me, it's silly & borderline insulting, that the all-time debate(s) start here... and actually make their way into sets... before the true debate is settled (let alone even started) by the various HOF committees/voters.

In my sports-viewing lifetime (let's call that since the mid-80's)... I've seen perhaps 3, yes, only 3, athletes from the 4 major sports that I would have seriously considered all-time greats at or around the mid-points of their careers... Michael Jordan, Barry Sanders & Albert Pujols. Darn near everyone else I can think of at the moment had low points in their career that might give pause, or failed to accomplish something one might consider required... where hindsight was required to really make the proper, informed designation. With that said, I stand by my belief that the All-Time sets are kind of a joke so long as debate can be permitted, regarding inclusion, before said athlete is a member of the appropriate Hall of Fame.

Just my 2 cents!

bking · December 29, 2011 4:09AM

<< This thread, and the dozens (hundreds?) like it before, are why I will no longer work on "all-time" sets here.

To me, it's silly & borderline insulting, that the all-time debate(s) start here... and actually make their way into sets... before the true debate is settled (let alone even started) by the various HOF committees/voters.

In my sports-viewing lifetime (let's call that since the mid-80's)... I've seen perhaps 3, yes, only 3, athletes from the 4 major sports that I would have seriously considered all-time greats at or around the mid-points of their careers... Michael Jordan, Barry Sanders & Albert Pujols. Darn near everyone else I can think of at the moment had low points in their career that might give pause, or failed to accomplish something one might consider required... where hindsight was required to really make the proper, informed designation. With that said, I stand by my belief that the All-Time sets are kind of a joke so long as debate can be permitted, regarding inclusion, before said athlete is a member of the appropriate Hall of Fame.

Just my 2 cents! >>

I have no dog in this hunt, but AMEN

JasP24 · December 29, 2011 5:16AM

Yep, I stopped collecting them as well...Became WAYYYY to inclusive adding the "hot at the moment/in the news" guys at every turn...

I like that we can debate it here, as it can only help because PSA just sends a poll YES/NO with no requirement that the people voting even know who the players that are being requested even are! At least here we might get 4 or 5 guys who collect the set or have knowledge of the players to get multiple opinions..Better than nothing!

Jason

PowderedH2O · December 29, 2011 5:19AM

How does 5 Pro Bowls (six after this year) mean less than what it used to mean? 50 or 60 years ago there were 10-12 teams and they fielded two teams for the Pro Bowl. Now there are 32 teams and they field two teams for the Pro Bowl. Here's the way I see it: Brees has had 6 GREAT seasons with the Saints (and by great I mean that he has never been below 6th in the NFL in passing yards or touchdowns since 2006). He has led the NFL in passing once, and finished in the top four in the NFL three other times in that stretch (counting this year). He happens to play at the same time as Manning, Brady, and now Rodgers. So, he has only been All-Pro once in that stretch. But he has been Second-Team All-Pro two other times, and probably a third time this year. That means in an era of Manning, Brady, Rodgers, etc.. Brees has had four years out of six in which he was deemed to be one of the top two quarterbacks in the NFL. In 2009, he was selected as second team all-pro, but won the NFL Player of the Year and Super Bowl MVP. Is there another quarterback that has had a six year stretch of this level of success against the competition in his league that is not in the Hall of Fame? Plus, Brees has the years before he came to the Saints which included one excellent year in San Diego and a couple of other good seasons.
I say all of this, because I am a fan of Brees and I can't remotely figure how he could be left out of any All-time quarterback club. But, then again, this panel of 'experts' selected Blanda, Namath, and Stabler to the group, and none of them could even carry Brees' clipboard. So, maybe the club isn't one he needs to be in anyways.

Fabfrank · December 29, 2011 5:34AM

I'm a huge Brees fan too. Met him twice and he's one of the nicest athletes I know. More so, I have built this set and have endured players being added than removed or players being nominated because someone had the RC and wanted included to increase it's value or some other nonsense. I "have skin in the game" with this set. I think the best solution going forward for any of the all time great sets, is that a player can't be considered for inclusion until he retires. This way we'll be able to look at a players career body of work. Just like the HOF.

PowderedH2O · December 29, 2011 5:39AM

If that's a rule, then so be it. But then, Brady and Manning should not be considered either.

Fabfrank · December 29, 2011 6:00AM

Like I said "the best solution going forward", since Manning and Brady are already in the set, it would be counter productive to take them out now.

PowderedH2O · December 29, 2011 6:22AM

Of course, with a guy like Brett Favre, you may get him to retire several times...lol. That's probably a safe way to go about it. If you have a blanket rule, then there is never any discussion about it. I don't necessarily know if that should apply to All-Time team sets. For example, whether Brees ever throws another pass, he'd clearly be on the all-time Saints team (which he is).

JasP24 · December 29, 2011 7:11AM

Well, here's the bad news...

Any blanket rule you impose, will only apply to yourselves. Some new collector comes on or another collector doesn't agree and they can anonymously send the request to PSA and PSA WILL send the poll out. There are no checks and balances there anymore when it comes to set additions...

PSA pretty much stopped observing the set rules a couple years back. You want an autographed card on the HOF RC set, hey just request it! If it gets majority vote, it will get added.

Jason

rexvos · December 29, 2011 7:45AM

<< How does 5 Pro Bowls (six after this year) mean less than what it used to mean? 50 or 60 years ago there were 10-12 teams and they fielded two teams for the Pro Bowl. Now there are 32 teams and they field two teams for the Pro Bowl. Here's the way I see it: Brees has had 6 GREAT seasons with the Saints (and by great I mean that he has never been below 6th in the NFL in passing yards or touchdowns since 2006). He has led the NFL in passing once, and finished in the top four in the NFL three other times in that stretch (counting this year). He happens to play at the same time as Manning, Brady, and now Rodgers. So, he has only been All-Pro once in that stretch. But he has been Second-Team All-Pro two other times, and probably a third time this year. That means in an era of Manning, Brady, Rodgers, etc.. Brees has had four years out of six in which he was deemed to be one of the top two quarterbacks in the NFL. In 2009, he was selected as second team all-pro, but won the NFL Player of the Year and Super Bowl MVP. Is there another quarterback that has had a six year stretch of this level of success against the competition in his league that is not in the Hall of Fame? Plus, Brees has the years before he came to the Saints which included one excellent year in San Diego and a couple of other good seasons.
I say all of this, because I am a fan of Brees and I can't remotely figure how he could be left out of any All-time quarterback club. But, then again, this panel of 'experts' selected Blanda, Namath, and Stabler to the group, and none of them could even carry Brees' clipboard. So, maybe the club isn't one he needs to be in anyways. >>

amen.

JasP24 · December 29, 2011 8:05AM

<< Brees has had four years out of six in which he was deemed to be one of the top two quarterbacks in the NFL. In 2009, he was selected as second team all-pro, but won the NFL Player of the Year and Super Bowl MVP. Is there another quarterback that has had a six year stretch of this level of success against the competition in his league that is not in the Hall of Fame? >>

Ken Anderson

MeteoriteGuy · December 29, 2011 8:06AM

<< 

<< How does 5 Pro Bowls (six after this year) mean less than what it used to mean? 50 or 60 years ago there were 10-12 teams and they fielded two teams for the Pro Bowl. Now there are 32 teams and they field two teams for the Pro Bowl. Here's the way I see it: Brees has had 6 GREAT seasons with the Saints (and by great I mean that he has never been below 6th in the NFL in passing yards or touchdowns since 2006). He has led the NFL in passing once, and finished in the top four in the NFL three other times in that stretch (counting this year). He happens to play at the same time as Manning, Brady, and now Rodgers. So, he has only been All-Pro once in that stretch. But he has been Second-Team All-Pro two other times, and probably a third time this year. That means in an era of Manning, Brady, Rodgers, etc.. Brees has had four years out of six in which he was deemed to be one of the top two quarterbacks in the NFL. In 2009, he was selected as second team all-pro, but won the NFL Player of the Year and Super Bowl MVP. Is there another quarterback that has had a six year stretch of this level of success against the competition in his league that is not in the Hall of Fame? Plus, Brees has the years before he came to the Saints which included one excellent year in San Diego and a couple of other good seasons.
I say all of this, because I am a fan of Brees and I can't remotely figure how he could be left out of any All-time quarterback club. But, then again, this panel of 'experts' selected Blanda, Namath, and Stabler to the group, and none of them could even carry Brees' clipboard. So, maybe the club isn't one he needs to be in anyways. >>

amen. >>

I'll second that. Brees should be part of the set.

This is his 10th season, some of you are acting like he has only been around a couple years, and somehow has yet to prove himself.

PowderedH2O · December 29, 2011 8:20AM

Brees has had four years out of six in which he was deemed to be one of the top two quarterbacks in the NFL. In 2009, he was selected as second team all-pro, but won the NFL Player of the Year and Super Bowl MVP. Is there another quarterback that has had a six year stretch of this level of success against the competition in his league that is not in the Hall of Fame?

Ken Anderson

Actually, no.

Anderson never was a Super Bowl winner. He also never put together a six-year stretch like Brees. His best six years aren't better than Brees 2006-2011. And I am not talking numbers, I am talking in comparison to the rest of the league. Anderson was an excellent quarterback, but Brees is better. I would compare Brees 2006-2011 to Steve Young of the 1990's. Yes, THAT good.

JasP24 · December 29, 2011 8:42AM

<< Brees has had four years out of six in which he was deemed to be one of the top two quarterbacks in the NFL. In 2009, he was selected as second team all-pro, but won the NFL Player of the Year and Super Bowl MVP. Is there another quarterback that has had a six year stretch of this level of success against the competition in his league that is not in the Hall of Fame?

Ken Anderson

Actually, no.

Anderson never was a Super Bowl winner. He also never put together a six-year stretch like Brees. His best six years aren't better than Brees 2006-2011. And I am not talking numbers, I am talking in comparison to the rest of the league. Anderson was an excellent quarterback, but Brees is better. I would compare Brees 2006-2011 to Steve Young of the 1990's. Yes, THAT good. >>

Steve Young is in the HOF. You asked for someone similar who isn't in the HOF..

Anderson:
1981 NFL MVP
Lead the NFL in passer rating 4 times
Lead the NFL in passing yards 2 times
4 Pro Bowls
1st or 2nd team All-Pro 4 times
Lost in the Super Bowl because he played Joe Montana, who proved to be unbeatable in the Super Bowl...Had the Bengals held on to win that game, Anderson would have been MVP.

If you take Anderson's 6 best seasons, combined with his resume above, they are similar players in comparison to the league at the time they played.

Jason

PowderedH2O · December 29, 2011 8:45AM

Similar, but a cut below, in my opinion (obviously, not yours).

epatmythes · December 29, 2011 8:46AM

Might as well put any SB winning quarterback in there... after all, Joe Namath is in the set!

He of the career losing record, 50% completion percentage & a career 173/220 TD/INT ratio. The card is iconic (which I imagine is the only reason it's in the set), the man was famous as all heck, but an "All Time Great Quarterback" he was not... still digusts me that he's in the Hall.

TmbrWolf22 · December 29, 2011 9:03AM

kind of OT....but how many of you ahve gone to the HOF in Canton, and how many times? So many ppl have so much knowledge of the inductees, and the process, I was just wondering how many have actually gone there?. I have been there once in 2005(I think), and I am going to try to go back here sometime in the upcoming new year. Anyone else?

rexvos · December 29, 2011 9:13AM

<< kind of OT....but how many of you ahve gone to the HOF in Canton, and how many times? So many ppl have so much knowledge of the inductees, and the process, I was just wondering how many have actually gone there?. I have been there once in 2005(I think), and I am going to try to go back here sometime in the upcoming new year. Anyone else? >>

I went in 2007. Loved it.

JasP24 · December 29, 2011 9:44AM

<< kind of OT....but how many of you ahve gone to the HOF in Canton, and how many times? So many ppl have so much knowledge of the inductees, and the process, I was just wondering how many have actually gone there?. I have been there once in 2005(I think), and I am going to try to go back here sometime in the upcoming new year. Anyone else? >>

Many times. If you call ahead (day or so prior) and request access to the archives, they will let you peruse all the cool stuff they have that is not on display...If you have a couple of days to spend, I recommend it. I think it's only Mon-Fri though, at least it used to be. Haven't gotten out that way since moving to Hawaii.

Jason

Fabfrank · December 29, 2011 10:04AM

Haven't gotten out that way since moving to Hawaii.

Hey Jason, you mean the road to Hana doesn't go through Canton?

TmbrWolf22 · December 29, 2011 10:12AM

Thanks Jason, Thats awesome...is there an additional fee to see the archives?

TmbrWolf22 · December 29, 2011 10:14AM

Jason, were you local before moving to Hawaii?.... I live in Findlay, OH. so the Hall is about a 2 hour drive for me. I'm pretty close.

TmbrWolf22 · December 29, 2011 10:20AM

We spent a weekend in Canton the last time we went...it was pretty cool. We went to the HOF of course, and also hit a classic car museum in Canton, and also the ameteur (sp) Sports HOF. All in all....it was definately a great weekend. We had lunch at a local tavern there, and the bartender said that it's one of Leroy Kelley's favorite places. She said that he was in town, and he would probably be in later that night. We went back later, and he never showed....kinda bummed I didn't get to see him, but still a great weekend.

cardbender · December 29, 2011 1:38PM

<< 

<< Brees has had four years out of six in which he was deemed to be one of the top two quarterbacks in the NFL. In 2009, he was selected as second team all-pro, but won the NFL Player of the Year and Super Bowl MVP. Is there another quarterback that has had a six year stretch of this level of success against the competition in his league that is not in the Hall of Fame?

Ken Anderson

Actually, no.

Anderson never was a Super Bowl winner. He also never put together a six-year stretch like Brees. His best six years aren't better than Brees 2006-2011. And I am not talking numbers, I am talking in comparison to the rest of the league. Anderson was an excellent quarterback, but Brees is better. I would compare Brees 2006-2011 to Steve Young of the 1990's. Yes, THAT good. >>

Steve Young is in the HOF. You asked for someone similar who isn't in the HOF..

Anderson:
1981 NFL MVP
Lead the NFL in passer rating 4 times
Lead the NFL in passing yards 2 times
4 Pro Bowls
1st or 2nd team All-Pro 4 times
Lost in the Super Bowl because he played Joe Montana, who proved to be unbeatable in the Super Bowl...Had the Bengals held on to win that game, Anderson would have been MVP.

If you take Anderson's 6 best seasons, combined with his resume above, they are similar players in comparison to the league at the time they played.

Jason >>

Not to start or continue this discussion but I have to agree with Jason on this one.
Ken Anderson is clearly deserving of being in the HOF. His career accomplishments speak for themselves.
Plus what wasn't added was his superior numbers in the playoffs. He is still ranked seventh all-time
for playoff QB rating even though he played in the tougher to pass era.

I think Brees is a future HOF'er too and will only add to his great numbers going forward.
But the one thing that Brees has going for him that Anderson and all other QB's of the pre 1990 era
are the easier to pass the ball rules that the NFL now has in place. The NFL has sort of turned into an arena football type
of league with QB's routinely putting up 4000+ yardage years like it's no big deal. Many passers seem to be
exceeding the 100 point QB rating every year, when it use to be a rare occurrence.

Brees is in the perfect offense for his talents. High volume attempts leads to big production numbers.
He's averaged 40 attempts per game in four out of the past five years. That's a huge number and I believe
it's the highest amount of passes thrown over any five year period in NFL history. Maybe only Peyton Manning
can come close to those lofty throwing attempts numbers.
What's a little troubling with Brees is during the past five years he has thrown 81 int's. That's 16 a year. That's a lot. That's one per game.
Of course his attempts are also higher than most other QB's so it's only natural for him to have more interceptions I guess.

Some might disagree but there were three really bad calls in the NFC Championship game involving the Vikes and Saints
a few years ago that allowed the Saints to make the Super Bowl. Had the game been called correctly, the Saints would've never been marching in. This coming from a Packers and Niners fan. So Brees never would've even made a Super Bowl appearance
if not for the benefit of those calls. I will give him credit for his great playoff passing record which is fourth all-time I believe with a pretty high QB ranking of 102 and 15 TD's and only 2 Int's.

What I really can't stand is the Brees is an MVP candidate talk lately. Give me a break. He broke the yardage mark for one season.
That's fine but it took him 622 attempts to do it. Marino set the mark in a tougher to throw the ball era in 1984, in his second year, with only 564 passes. His avg. gain was 9.01. Brees is currently at 8.18, still a fine mark but nearly a yard less than Marino.

(I've never understood the way the NFL keeps records, based on totals when it should in fact be based on per game averages. Like Dickerson rushing for 2105 yards in a 16 game season, 131 yards per game, and he's listed as the number one rushing season when OJ Simpson put up 2003 yards in only 14 games for a 143 per game average).

Aaron Rodgers is at 4643 yards, 9.25 Avg Gain, 45 TDs, 6 Ints, 122 Passer rating, 10 games with 3 or more TD's a game, 14-1 W-L.
Brees is at 5087 yards, 8.18 Avg. Gain, 41 TDs, 13 Ints, 105 Parrer Rating, 8 games with 3 or more Td's a game, 12-3 W-L.
The Packers beat the Saints head to head although it was at Green Bay. The result might have been different at N.O.

Brees plays at least 12 games a year in perfect climate controlled conditions on turf. The Saints played the Rams this year on the road in a dome and lost. Add in games at Atlanta, T. Bay, at Carolina, at Jax., at Tennessee, even at the Vikes in a dome. Really, this year the Saints have played every game in optimal weather conditions. So weather never affected his passing game.

The Packers typically play about four games per year in bad weather with many on grass, which affects the passing game.
This year the Pack haven't really been challenged by poor weather, except maybe this weekend with the Lions. They've had
a few games in the cold, but nothing to stop their passing attack.

This year Brees has taken 122 more attempts than Rodgers to gain only 444 more yards and pass for 4 less TD's than Rodgers but also threw 7 more picks.

In other words, Rodgers should be the landslide MVP and first team QB this year.

Again, not trying to beat up Brees but just putting his record breaking yardage year into perspective.
He had a great year but he's clearly not the MVP.

rexvos · December 29, 2011 8:15PM

I agree Anderson should be in the HOF. One thing that the guys from 70s and 80s and even early 90s did have going for them is no exotic defenses. No zone blitzes. They played against base 4-3 defenses on every down except 3rd except for maybe 2 minute drill time. Even though the rules are slanted today. Defenses are a lot more complicated and much more goes into being a qb.

jay0791 · December 29, 2011 8:59PM

Some excellent points. Good indication that stats are not everything...especially the weather factor.
I was watching a documentary on the old browns and Graham. One game was so bad and cold it was 3-3 after nearly a full game and a last minute FG by Groza won it.
Nobody could do anything. The ice bowl is still remembered as if it happened yeaterday.
Why is the SB played in warm weather always? Brees is a great QB...nobody is disputing that.....but he is playing in the best possible conditions.

As a kid I remember watching the game OJ went 2003 yards for the season. I think he needed over 200+ in the last game to do it.
He was unstopable in bad conditions. Dickerson was great but running in sunny S Cal is a whole lot different that running in a cold snowy Buffalo stadium.
I saw both runners/seasons....Dickerson doesn't come close.

I don't know why K Anderson doesn't get more notoriety. He was quietly good. One of the best of the decade.

To the guy that is disgusted by Namath being in the HOF.......his stats are not all that good. That is not the reason he's in the HOF.
If you ever saw him play you would step back and say "wow" He could throw the ball. Period. Why his card is so expensive? not sure.
Kinda mickey mantleish I think. Every collector just wants a Joe N rookie.

Some good points on both sides here.

My question is mainly....what is an all time great?
Is he who accumulated massive numbers? Look at the passing yards of this year alone. Can 4-5 all time greats be playing at the same time? or does he have to stand out and dominate the era over all the others.

Brees' carear is far from over. He will eventually be added to the set.

bking · December 29, 2011 10:00PM

<< 
My question is mainly....what is an all time great?
Is he who accumulated massive numbers? Look at the passing yards of this year alone. Can 4-5 all time greats be playing at the same time? or does he have to stand out and dominate the era over all the others.
>>

For me, an All-time great is someone who isn't even up for debate - everyone just KNOWS. There's a lot of talk about borderline HOF candidates, so those sorts aren't even in the discussion of ATGs for me. If you're a no-brainer HOF guy, you belong in the ATG conversation; if not, you don't.

The ATG list really doesn't need to grow quickly, does it? Doesn't that water down the concept?

alnavman · December 29, 2011 10:38PM

I've been to the FB HOF a number of times but I live in Parma which is a suburb of Cleveland so it's less than a two hour drive.......now I need to get my butt in gear and head to Cooperstown......

epatmythes · December 29, 2011 11:54PM

<< Why is the SB played in warm weather always? >>

$$$$

bking · December 30, 2011 12:03AM

<< 

<< Why is the SB played in warm weather always? >>

$$$$ >>

Is it even a game any more? Seems more of a corporate event with a halftime show than anything else.

JasP24 · December 30, 2011 4:25AM

<< I agree Anderson should be in the HOF. One thing that the guys from 70s and 80s and even early 90s did have going for them is no exotic defenses. No zone blitzes. They played against base 4-3 defenses on every down except 3rd except for maybe 2 minute drill time. Even though the rules are slanted today. Defenses are a lot more complicated and much more goes into being a qb. >>

Totally disagree with this. Sorry, but you are way off here...Do some more research on the subject before making a statement like that...Look up Jack Youngblood, Ted Hendricks, Curley Culp...How Parcells ran the Giants defense in the 80's...The Shula Dolphins and the 53 defense..Hank Stram and his Chiefs defense...etc, etc...Not to mention a team without worry of a salary cap that had half the starters being future HOFers (Steel Curtain Steelers int he 70s)...

Also, QBs back in those days had side jobs in the off-season, they didn't have DVD film study at home on a huge flatscreen to learn and dissect defenses 365 days a year. If you want to start adding variables, there are a million of them. Bottom line is that Ken Anderson had similar success in the 70s/80s as Drew Brees has had in the 00s and is not in the HOF. As a few have said here, you are better served with these sets by letting a career play out first, and making sure a guy is to a level (such as Brady and Manning are) that no matter what happens the rest of their career, they are still going to be considered one of the best to ever play..Brees isn't quite there yet, but he is on his way. Let it play out, what is the downside to waiting another couple of years? I don't get it...

Jason

rexvos · December 30, 2011 5:06AM

<< 

<< I agree Anderson should be in the HOF. One thing that the guys from 70s and 80s and even early 90s did have going for them is no exotic defenses. No zone blitzes. They played against base 4-3 defenses on every down except 3rd except for maybe 2 minute drill time. Even though the rules are slanted today. Defenses are a lot more complicated and much more goes into being a qb. >>

Totally disagree with this. Sorry, but you are way off here...Do some more research on the subject before making a statement like that...Look up Jack Youngblood, Ted Hendricks, Curley Culp...How Parcells ran the Giants defense in the 80's...The Shula Dolphins and the 53 defense..Hank Stram and his Chiefs defense...etc, etc...Not to mention a team without worry of a salary cap that had half the starters being future HOFers (Steel Curtain Steelers int he 70s)...

Also, QBs back in those days had side jobs in the off-season, they didn't have DVD film study at home on a huge flatscreen to learn and dissect defenses 365 days a year. If you want to start adding variables, there are a million of them. Bottom line is that Ken Anderson had similar success in the 70s/80s as Drew Brees has had in the 00s and is not in the HOF. As a few have said here, you are better served with these sets by letting a career play out first, and making sure a guy is to a level (such as Brady and Manning are) that no matter what happens the rest of their career, they are still going to be considered one of the best to ever play..Brees isn't quite there yet, but he is on his way. Let it play out, what is the downside to waiting another couple of years? I don't get it...

Jason >>

I can wait on him, but I am right about vanilla defenses compared to nowadays.

bking · December 30, 2011 5:25AM

<< 

I can wait on him, but I am right about vanilla defenses compared to nowadays. >>

true, but let's not forget about the MASSIVE changes in Pass Interference and Illegal Contact calls since then.

rexvos · December 30, 2011 6:21AM

<< 

<< 

I can wait on him, but I am right about vanilla defenses compared to nowadays. >>

true, but let's not forget about the MASSIVE changes in Pass Interference and Illegal Contact calls since then. >>

no doubt. There are much easier things about being qbs nowadays and I readily admit that, but all I am saying is the schemes are much more advanced now.

JasP24 · December 30, 2011 9:00AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

I can wait on him, but I am right about vanilla defenses compared to nowadays. >>

true, but let's not forget about the MASSIVE changes in Pass Interference and Illegal Contact calls since then. >>

no doubt. There are much easier things about being qbs nowadays and I readily admit that, but all I am saying is the schemes are much more advanced now. >>

No one said that defenses aren't more advanced now..Of course they are! As are the offenses, players themselves, the fans, the world...What you said was, and i quote, "no exotic defenses. No zone blitzes. They played against base 4-3 defenses on every down except 3rd except for maybe 2 minute drill time."

That quote is 100000% incorrect...There were plenty of exotic defenses, and lots of teams using the 3-4 and variances of it much different than a standard 4-3 on every down but 3rd...You couldn't be more wrong...And if this is your stance, you simply don't know what you are talking about...PERIOD...Where do you live, I'll fly out and we can do some film review...lol

Jason

All Time Great QBs Set

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