Do you think this has been cleaned?

Walter

Just got the grade back from NGC, came back AU Details (Surface Hairlines). Our host put it in a No Decision/Refund bag so I sent it over to NGC.

I don't believe it's been cleaned (note how the 'hairlines' go under the devices, particularly noticeable within the left half of the crown, somewhere where cleaning hairlines wouldn't reach). Some of the 'hairlines' are quite clearly raised lines too (near the top of the crown, around 8pm on the obverse legend).

NGC say surface hairlines, PCGS aren't sure, what does everyone else think of it?

JCMhouston

I would have to agree with NGC, the lines running from upper left to lower right across most of the obverse would imply a harsh cleaning to me.

Sapyx

They look more like die polishing lines than coin cleaning lines to me. I've never had opportunity to examine an Adelaide pound up close - do other Adelaide pounds share this feature?

There aren't any in the PCGS pop report - have either of the grading services ever graded an Adelaide pound before? Perhaps it's simply inexperience with the series.

coinkat

Big Images help but the Crown side is problematic- The key is die polishing is raised- here there are some raised lines and others that are not. Without seeing the coin in hand and taking a very careful look, I am not willing to commit but I am not optimistic

harasha

My first reaction was the same as Sapyx'. Surface seems more die polish than cleaning.

StubbyMcNumbthumbs

Here is an excerpt from "http://www.numismatics.com.au/Blog/The_Adelaide_Assay_Office" which places your example at a late die state. That "may" explain the possible die polishing lines not seen in all examples that the TPGs have seen.

Just a thought.

Nice coin regardless. One of my favourites!




The second One Pound design, dubbed the Adelaide Pound Type II, features crenulated inner circles on both faces and was used to mint 24,768 tokens until the closure of the assay office in February 1853. While this die was more successful, in later strikes, the crudeness can still be seen with much deterioration and strike flaws from contaminants visible in the later strikes.

Several trials were produced in lead most likely to ensure that the second die wouldn't break in its eventual use. Deacon lists two such trials, both in lead and notes an unverified example struck off collar . The first trial (Deacon 14a), like the trial of the Type I Adelaide Pound, resides in the Adelaide National Gallery and isn't available to collectors. The second (Deacon 14b) was listed by Deacon as appearing in a Numismatic Circular in 1915 and present (as of 1954) whereabouts unknown. In October 1975 this trial piece re-appeared on the market at Spink and Stern sale, lot 22 ex the collection of Captain Vivian Hewitt .

The third Type II trial was listed as being unverified by Deacon but in June 2008 an off-collar example appeared in public auction by Spink London verifying his claim.

While only one die was used for the Type II, it is unknown why or how far down the line, but 5 notches were added above '2 C' of '22 CARATS' on the reverse. Examples which display these notches, being from the later half of the mintage, are generally weakly struck with the deterioration of the die quite obvious.

Section of the later strike Adelaide Pound Type II, note the small notches above '2 C'

RobP

It might or might not be cleaned and if so how long ago is a moot point depending on the following.

There are red dots on the crown side by the S and between the 2 central pearls of the vertical line and what could be more red specks on the edge indent by OV and within the rose by G & A. Are they wax or felt from your trays? If the former, it is possible but unlikely that any cleaning was done after the wax got stuck to the coin which implies it would be done a long time ago. If it is wax, the implication is it has been illustrated in a catalogue, most likely in the first half of the last century.

ajaan

I think NGC uses 'surface hairlines' way too much. They really didn't say it was cleaned.

Aethelred

I think both of the major grading services use hairlines and such too often as an excuse not to grade the coin on issues like this. Just my honest opinion.

At any rate, it looks to me like the "hairlines" run into areas that it would be hard to reach cleaning it. Having said that, there is no way to tell without seeing the coin in person.

Walter

<< <i>They look more like die polishing lines than coin cleaning lines to me. I've never had opportunity to examine an Adelaide pound up close - do other Adelaide pounds share this feature? There aren't any in the PCGS pop report - have either of the grading services ever graded an Adelaide pound before? Perhaps it's simply inexperience with the series. >>



Both services have graded some. I've seen die cleaning striations on other later strike Adelaide Pounds but never to this extent and never this even (the striations usually go in all directions). Both dies suffered from die rust but only the obverse die seemed to get cleaned. Later strikes always have rough looking obverse fields because of the cleaning:

Sorry about the small photo here, here is a modern re-strike, it's never been bagged, handled (except for a certain young collector who found himself in the local society pages by dropping it at a RAM function), but still display those rough obverse fields.




<< <i>Big Images help but the Crown side is problematic- The key is die polishing is raised- here there are some raised lines and others that are not. Without seeing the coin in hand and taking a very careful look, I am not willing to commit but I am not optimistic >>



I think that's it, NGC must have found some cleaning hairlines present among the die cleaning striations.



<< <i>Here is an excerpt from "http://www.numismatics.com.au/Blog/The_Adelaide_Assay_Office" which places your example at a late die state. That "may" explain the possible die polishing lines not seen in all examples that the TPGs have seen.

Just a thought.

Nice coin regardless. One of my favourites! >>



Hey I wrote that article. ^^ The Adelaide Pound is one of my favourites too!

StubbyMcNumbthumbs

So, I reckon there wasn't much helpful info for you in my response...?

An awful lot of history in one of those!
Cheers

coinkat

It would be interesting to go through auction catalogs and look at other examples to develop a better understanding of how distinguishing die polish is for the issue as well as die deterioration.

I can appreciate that would be a significant undertaking.

The real question is whether the coin has been severely impacted to the point where it is not market acceptable- issues with die polish or a deteriorated die really should not be used as an excuse not to grade the coin. I am not suggesting that was done here, I just think an opinion for this coin requires alittle work and research

MacCrimmon

<< <i>It would be interesting to go through auction catalogs and look at other examples to develop a better understanding of how distinguishing die polish is for the issue as well as die deterioration.

I can appreciate that would be a significant undertaking.

The real question is whether the coin has been severely impacted to the point where it is not market acceptable- issues with die polish or a deteriorated die really should not be used as an excuse not to grade the coin. I am not suggesting that was done here, I just think an opinion for this coin requires alittle work and research >>




I don't think enough has been "done", if any, to preclude a grade...........at least from the images. IAE, it's a coin which I feel would still bring the true market price regardless of any TPGs blessing.

I scanned through 4-5 of these pounds at ha.com and didn't see any with striations, but I missed 2 or so due to an appointment......maybe a revisit later this weekend.

Merry Christmas to all in the meantime.

MacCrimmon

Another Q for the experts on this coinage.... were these overstruck on other gold coinage? And, is there a chance the coin had the 'crown' side "planed" prior to striking; the specific intent of the planing being akin to adjustment marks?

Also, what's the survival rate of these Aussie pounds?

Walter

I'm not sure what you mean by planned, but they were not overstruck on other coins, they were emergency strikes produced from Victorian gold because of the lack of currency in South Australia.

There are about 300 Type II Adelaide pounds around today with about 50-75 in mint state.

A good book on the series is Hunt Deacon's The 'Ingots' and Assay Office Pieces of South Australia.

1jester

Planing would be shaving off the host coin to prepare the coin for restriking.

I agree that it would be impossible to give a conclusive answer on the possible cleaning without seeing the coin in person and examining it in 3D. However, the very large pictures shown do give us an excellent 2D representation of the coin, and I'm inclined to believe the overwhelming majority, if not all, off the lines visible on the crown side are due to die polishing, not cleaning. The reason I believe so is that, as one poster stated, so many of the lines reach into spots that would be impossible to mechanically reproduce in a cleaning. And, I detect a distinct lack of these same lines on the tops of the surfaces of the devices and letters/numbers. The high points are in remarkably untouched condition, with no signs of hairlines! My hunch is that this coin is not cleaned, from what I see in the images.