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Thoughts on this quote on Toned Peace $
Peacemonkey
Posts: 384 ✭
"Toning is not uncommon and is light to heavy golden. Note that I am of the very strong opinion that any 1921 Peace dollar...indeed any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors (blue, red, green, etc) is absolutely artificially toned. While not very scientific, my approach to toning on coins is to remember the colors I saw in the 1960's and 1970's and if a new look appears, it's artificial to me. This is kind of an "old school" approach and I may be wrong, but unless you believe global warming has created new colors for coins, it just seems illogical to me that new colors would suddenly appear naturally on coins. Back to the 1921 Peace dollar...this is, in my opinion, one of the most important coins of the 20th century, and also one of the most beautiful."
So my first thought is to apply some science to this. My question is that if the 60 and 70s are used as a "cutoff date" for new colors to qualify, then what are the years for Morgan dollars to qualify their colors?
I'd would also add that the pool of available coins to view in those 60s and 70s must have been a fraction. Not only because of the obvious internet invention element but because of the price of silver made it much easier to toss silver coins into long term storage for decades which not only limits the pool but in fact creates the potential for toning conditions.
So my first thought is to apply some science to this. My question is that if the 60 and 70s are used as a "cutoff date" for new colors to qualify, then what are the years for Morgan dollars to qualify their colors?
I'd would also add that the pool of available coins to view in those 60s and 70s must have been a fraction. Not only because of the obvious internet invention element but because of the price of silver made it much easier to toss silver coins into long term storage for decades which not only limits the pool but in fact creates the potential for toning conditions.
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GrandAm
Most people will agree with a master numismatist's quote who has decades of experience over someone with a biased perspective at best.
Edited to add to be fair I have seen a couple of lightly circulated Peace dollars where some of the surface finish was rubbed off and the coin was put away and developed some splotchy toning from the purse, cardboard or something like that but they have always been not worth a premium IMO although others disagreed.
<< <i>I believe that quote is from none other than David Hall himself
GrandAm
I believe you are right.
<< <i>99% of the non-brown, golden or yellow/pinkish brown Peace dollars I have ever seen (lots of them) have been stripped by cleaning or dipping and have retoned. I have seen a few that have obviously been EV damaged and picked up some color but they don't/haven't toned like Morgans despite a few people best efforts. FYI nothing you mentioned is anything close to science and is really just attempt to sir an already well cooked pot. Sure you will see a few perspective-ly attractive coins where the golds have turned to roses and the blacks have purple on the transitional edges but anything like you avatar is AT or ED. While you can find exceptions to every rule we are talking about 99.999999% of the time here.
Most people will agree with a master numismatist's quote who has decades of experience over someone with a biased perspective at best.
Edited to add to be fair I have seen a couple of lightly circulated Peace dollars where some of the surface finish was rubbed off and the coin was put away and developed some splotchy toning from the purse, cardboard or something like that but they have always been not worth a premium IMO although others disagreed. >>
How come there arent 100 of every kind of Atoned peace dollar then? I have seen some very unique tonings on slabbed Peace dollars and yet I have never seen 2 toned the same. Why cant i find 10 more raw coins that didnt get into slabs that look just like my avatar? The same is not true about Morgans. Are these doctos working their craft for that ONE coin pay day? Can you explain that?
I take exception(but not offense) to your claim that my opinion is biased, obviously because I HAVE toned peace dollars. But I dont feel this way BECAUSE I have toned peace dollars. I have toned peace dollars because I feel this way.
Holding these coins in hand, I'm certain they toned naturally this way. The tape mark on the bottom right coin, it would seem, backs this up. I don't really collect Peace dollars but they are common dates and I thought they were attractive so I picked them up.
Put another way, he was saying that if you own a Peace Dollar with toning similar to a Morgan Dollar, it is almost certainly AT. I don't have a problem with his statement and for the most part agree with it.
<< <i>I think that his statement was an example of someone shooting from the hip not realizing that because of his status, his words would meet a much higher level of scrutiny than others. I also don't think he intended to condemn every single Peace Dollar with rainbow toning, only those Peace Dollars with dramatic rainbow toning. For example. I think he would admit that the first photo below is NT while the second is the type of coin he was talking about.
Put another way, he was saying that if you own a Peace Dollar with toning similar to a Morgan Dollar, it is almost certainly AT. I don't have a problem with his statement and for the most part agree with it. >>
Lehigh, do you feel that even with the admittance that the opinion is not based on any science, it is responsible to put that statement on coinfacts? Considering the effect on the market that the leading and best grading company can have? Personally I like that he made the statement. It will save me money in the future in buying toned peace dollars. I hope he continues to make such statements and I hope people continue to believe them. And at the same time I concede he has probably forgotten more than Ill ever know about coins. However should this question be filed away and never asked again? I am not a believer of the idea that questions shouldnt be asked regarldess of how definitive someone might think that current asnwer is. If the world thought that way, there would be no Columbian Commemerative collectors
Sadly, if you think about it, peace dollars would only have been 30-50 years old in the '60s and '70s, so that would have been the only time length for toning. Now, you can add on another 40-50 years since then, which is the same time length for additional toning. That length of time has now doubled. Given the right, approved as natural, storage type of situation, why wouldn't some of them be showing toning that wasn't on peace dollars back then but was on morgan dollars that had been around for 70-100 years by then?
One should take into account that type of timing, imho.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Yep, I recall HRH making that statement a few years ago I think, on the boards.
Sadly, if you think about it, peace dollars would only have been 30-50 years old in the '60s and '70s, so that would have been the only time length for toning. Now, you can add on another 40-50 years since then, which is the same time length for additional toning. That length of time has now doubled. Given the right, approved as natural, storage type of situation, why wouldn't some of them be showing toning that wasn't on peace dollars back then but was on morgan dollars that had been around for 70-100 years by then?
One should take into account that type of timing, imho. >>
Yeah it was stated here on the forum and at least that allowed for debate and viewpoints. The quote i posted here though is IN COINFACTS!! Under the 1921 peace description.
I am suspicious when a see an exotic Peace dollar.
To the OP, there is no cutoff date for Morgans. Apples and oranges.
Lance.
<< <i>Here is my problem with the statement. If lets say we agree that someone can sit in a lab somewhere and make peace dollars like #2 above or any of the better ones that exist out there as far as toning symmetry and colors. Then what is to keep them from doing it on a morgan? Yet if a morgan looked like #2 above, no one would bat an eye. >>
I think the reasoning for difference in toning patterns on Morgans and Peace dollars is because of the surface of the coin.
<< <i>Peace dollars don't tone like Morgans. Maybe it was composition or minting, maybe storage.
>>
I am not sure what compelled the stating of the obvious...however woudnt it be true that if storage was one of the factors, that something in the 50 years since Mr Hall viewed P$ in the 60s that something could have affected at least a handfull of pieces? If we went the scientific route I think theres more there than any of the science being supplied the other way. Everyone keeps jumping on me that what I am stating is not science but where is the science the other way?
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<< <i>Peace dollars don't tone like Morgans. Maybe it was composition or minting, maybe storage.
>>
I am not sure what compelled the stating of the obvious...however woudnt it be true that if storage was one of the factors, that something in the 50 years since Mr Hall viewed P$ in the 60s that something could have affected at least a handfull of pieces? If we went the scientific route I think theres more there than any of the science being supplied the other way. Everyone keeps jumping on me that what I am stating is not science but where is the science the other way? >>
I don't think the op was trying to offend you.
They are not slabbed because I do not care about a third parties opinions. They have never been submitted, and i doubt they ever will.
They are mine and they are beautiful!
As far as the I don't remember seeing these colors in the 60's, well alot has changed in 50 years!
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
<< <i>As far as the I don't remember seeing these colors in the 60's, well alot has changed in 50 years! >>
True dat, the coin doc's have been very busy. And I don't remember seeing these tyes of colors in the 70's, 80's or 90's either. Although my personal feeling is that many of the monster toned Morgans have also had their toning enhanced, either through chemistry or the use of creative storage conditions.
It would be intersting to see the difference in composition and source of the silver used in Morgans compared to Peace dollars. My feeling is, much like British coins of different periods, the coins naturally tone in a different way due to subtle differences in the composition of the material as well as the source of the material.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
You may draw your own conclusions....Mike
I have yet to see that done.
Though there were several toned Morgan dollars, there was NOT ONE colorfully toned Peace dollar in the lot!!!
There were a few golden ones, but no color.... It's my feeling that for one reason or another NT Peace dollars are extremely rare.... Perhaps it's mostly time, maybe storage and design....
Though there were some beautiful coins posted here, and I can't know or understand how they were stored for the past several decades.
I do think that the coin pictured in that link from 2009 is clearly cooked...
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
<< <i>I disagree with the statement that rainbow toned Peace Dollars are less than original as was suggested. Here is mine, grade MS63* by NGC.
This looks original to my novice eyes.... It looks very much like the many NT Morgans I've viewed....
And unlike many of the other Toned Peace dollars..
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
<< <i>I disagree with the statement that rainbow toned Peace Dollars are less than original as was suggested. Here is mine, grade MS63* by NGC.
If there is a coin doctor that can do this, why arent there 1000 like this? Or any with the obverse toned like this? Doesnt make sense to me that there would be a handful of these type of coins. I count less than 5 that ive seen anywhere like this. And ive yet to see a coin doctor who can put those colors on any coin let a lone the alledgedly hard to tone peace. I like your coin very much and Id bet anything that it is as legit as any of the "monster" morgans posted here daily.
<< <i>If there is a coin doctor that can do this, why arent there 1000 like this? Or any with the obverse toned like this? Doesnt make sense to me that there would be a handful of these type of coins. I count less than 5 that ive seen anywhere like this. And ive yet to see a coin doctor who can put those colors on any coin let a lone the alledgedly hard to tone peace. I like your coin very much and Id bet anything that it is as legit as any of the "monster" morgans posted here daily. >>
Because they know flooding the market would cause a severe drop in value.
If they pump out one at a time every couple years, they make a killing anyhow.
Not saying the coin in question is NT/AT but there are coins out there that have been doctored, we just can't tell.
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<< <i>If there is a coin doctor that can do this, why arent there 1000 like this? Or any with the obverse toned like this? Doesnt make sense to me that there would be a handful of these type of coins. I count less than 5 that ive seen anywhere like this. And ive yet to see a coin doctor who can put those colors on any coin let a lone the alledgedly hard to tone peace. I like your coin very much and Id bet anything that it is as legit as any of the "monster" morgans posted here daily. >>
Because they know flooding the market would cause a severe drop in value.
If they pump out one at a time every couple years, they make a killing anyhow.
Not saying the coin in question is NT/AT but there are coins out there that have been doctored, we just can't tell. >>
I dunno. That theory doesnt jive with me.
I'd like to add that I worked as jeweler at Tiffany&Co at one time and I handled A LOT of silver jewlery. More than I have handled coins. And I have seen rainbow coloring of every imganable shade on heart tag bracelets and return to tiffany chokers. Many times all it took was a walk on the boardwalk on a humid day and these things would go from blast white to rianbow in 1 day.
<< <i>I disagree with the statement that rainbow toned Peace Dollars are less than original as was suggested. Here is mine, grade MS63* by NGC.
While the toning on this coin appears to be original, it really only proves that there is an exception to every rule. It does however show the danger in making blanket statements. That is a really fantastic coin, congrats!
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<< <i>If there is a coin doctor that can do this, why arent there 1000 like this? Or any with the obverse toned like this? Doesnt make sense to me that there would be a handful of these type of coins. I count less than 5 that ive seen anywhere like this. And ive yet to see a coin doctor who can put those colors on any coin let a lone the alledgedly hard to tone peace. I like your coin very much and Id bet anything that it is as legit as any of the "monster" morgans posted here daily. >>
Because they know flooding the market would cause a severe drop in value.
If they pump out one at a time every couple years, they make a killing anyhow.
Not saying the coin in question is NT/AT but there are coins out there that have been doctored, we just can't tell. >>
I dunno. That theory doesnt jive with me.
I'd like to add that I worked as jeweler at Tiffany&Co at one time and I handled A LOT of silver jewlery. More than I have handled coins. And I have seen rainbow coloring of every imganable shade on heart tag bracelets and return to tiffany chokers. Many times all it took was a walk on the boardwalk on a humid day and these things would go from blast white to rianbow in 1 day. >>
Well, like previously stated that Morgans and Peace dollars tone differently due to difference in surfaces, same story with these.
I'm assuming the jewelry you handle is sterling or possibly pure...a lot easier to tone.
<< <i>Has DH gone on record on toned ASE? These seem to make it into PCGS slabs mere months after release from the mint. 50 years since the 60s and theres no way a P$ could have toned in that time yet 6 months after release this is ok? >>
Peacemonkey, do you know anything about the composition of silver (morgan/peace) dollars and the composition of silver eagles when you bring them into the same conversation as if to compare them when it comes to toning? Do you understand the reactivity difference?
Silver eagles WILL tone in a simple environment, without anything added other than simple air you are breathing. They have also been in "approved" (by the numismatic community) holders such as danscos, other albums, cardboard holders as gifts, etc, that will impart toning. Imho, that type of toning is hard to call "accelerated" because of the silver composition and reactivity. Now, if someone were to put it in a gas environment, or put chemicals on them, etc, then, to me, that would be AT/accelerated.
You can find silver eagles that tone within months, naturally imho, in certain environments. You don't believe it then take one and put it by your computer desk and see how long until it tones.
For your question about if HRH has gone on record about the toned SAEs, I don't think he has (that I can recall) and I don't think he cares that much, personally, about them. I think, and this is only my opinion, he is a classics sort of guy. PCGS also bags a LOT of toned SAEs, and many that I would think are NT, and some others get holdered. I think some of it depends on the grader and how they feel, but again, that is just an opinion as I am neither a grader nor a dealer.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>Has DH gone on record on toned ASE? These seem to make it into PCGS slabs mere months after release from the mint. 50 years since the 60s and theres no way a P$ could have toned in that time yet 6 months after release this is ok? >>
Peacemonkey, do you know anything about the composition of silver (morgan/peace) dollars and the composition of silver eagles when you bring them into the same conversation as if to compare them when it comes to toning? Do you understand the reactivity difference?
Silver eagles WILL tone in a simple environment, without anything added other than simple air you are breathing. They have also been in "approved" (by the numismatic community) holders such as danscos, other albums, cardboard holders as gifts, etc, that will impart toning. Imho, that type of toning is hard to call "accelerated" because of the silver composition and reactivity. Now, if someone were to put it in a gas environment, or put chemicals on them, etc, then, to me, that would be AT/accelerated.
You can find silver eagles that tone within months, naturally imho, in certain environments. You don't believe it then take one and put it by your computer desk and see how long until it tones.
For your question about if HRH has gone on record about the toned SAEs, I don't think he has (that I can recall) and I don't think he cares that much, personally, about them. I think, and this is only my opinion, he is a classics sort of guy. PCGS also bags a LOT of toned SAEs, and many that I would think are NT, and some others get holdered. I think some of it depends on the grader and how they feel, but again, that is just an opinion as I am neither a grader nor a dealer. >>
All you are doing is proving my point. ASE's get a free pas despite the fact that I can just "place it near my computer and tone it". No scrutiny whatsoever. Yet 50 years since the 60s and the Peace $s are fishy??
Despite this you question whether I understand the composition, I do. But do you understand the compositional difference between the peace and morgans? No one has stated them scientificially and a leading expert on the subject has been on record numerous times saying there is no known difference in treatment or composition of the 2.
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<< <i>If there is a coin doctor that can do this, why arent there 1000 like this? Or any with the obverse toned like this? Doesnt make sense to me that there would be a handful of these type of coins. I count less than 5 that ive seen anywhere like this. And ive yet to see a coin doctor who can put those colors on any coin let a lone the alledgedly hard to tone peace. I like your coin very much and Id bet anything that it is as legit as any of the "monster" morgans posted here daily. >>
Because they know flooding the market would cause a severe drop in value.
If they pump out one at a time every couple years, they make a killing anyhow.
Not saying the coin in question is NT/AT but there are coins out there that have been doctored, we just can't tell. >>
I dunno. That theory doesnt jive with me.
I'd like to add that I worked as jeweler at Tiffany&Co at one time and I handled A LOT of silver jewlery. More than I have handled coins. And I have seen rainbow coloring of every imganable shade on heart tag bracelets and return to tiffany chokers. Many times all it took was a walk on the boardwalk on a humid day and these things would go from blast white to rianbow in 1 day. >>
Well, like previously stated that Morgans and Peace dollars tone differently due to difference in surfaces, same story with these.
I'm assuming the jewelry you handle is sterling or possibly pure...a lot easier to tone. >>
Yes, the more pure jewlery has the capability to tone in a day, however is 50 years not enough to bridge that purity gap? I think its plenty.