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The US Mint should never have started making coins specifically for collectors

MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,618 ✭✭✭✭✭
IMO, the US Mint should never have started making coins specifically for collectors.

Patterns to test designs for circulation - yes.

Specimen pieces for presentation to dignitaries to help secure a vote for a new circulating coin - sure.

But not coins, bullion, or NCLT produced only to sell to collectors.

Some Mint director a long time ago thought "Hey, we can make some money if we do this!" But it has had a negative impact on the hobby and on numismatics.

I'm not talking about modern coins produced for circulation. If they have interesting, collectable designs like the state quarters or the different Lincoln Cent designs that came out, that's a great way to increase interest in our hobby.

The interest generated by modern mint products produced only for collectors is the wrong kind of interest. It's fleeting. It doesn't seem to build in young collectors any long-term interest in the hobby - in the classic, historical coins and the stories behind them that attracted me to the hobby as a kid and brought me back as an adult. Instead, the interest is in bullion values, flipping for a profit, obtaining a 70 slab grade, etc.

The Mint should only concern itself with producing circulating coinage for the country.


(I posted some of this in another thread. But I like to stir things up so I thought it should get it's own thread!)
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    LindeDadLindeDad Posts: 18,766 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> "Hey, we can make some money if we do this!" >>


    Not much to add after that fact is brought up.
    image
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    secondrepublicsecondrepublic Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭
    The commemoratives the mint makes aren't just for collectors. I bet a lot of them are sold to regular people. Think of the Olympic and Statue of Liberty commems. Same was true with the classic commem. series. A lot sold to local people in those states/towns.

    Rather than putting people off, more likely it introduces new people to the hobby. Of course, if they produce too many types, that is overkill and can actually hurt the hobby.
    "Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
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    RYKRYK Posts: 35,801 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the never-ending quarter series (states, territories (WTH?), national parks, whoknowswhatsnext, ...) is more damaging to collectors than what's going on with the NCLT/bullion. The former reminds me of baseball cards in the late 80's.
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    << <i>(I posted some of this in another thread. But I like to stir things up so I thought it should get it's own thread!) >>


    Your just a trouble maker....image
    ......Larry........image
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    I tend to agree. Although I wouldn't complain about proof coinage made with the same specifications as circulating coinage.

    Commems should be medals and bullion should be bars, neither with denominations or LT status.
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    DorkGirlDorkGirl Posts: 9,994 ✭✭✭
    Did the mint make that decision or did Congress.
    Becky
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    MikeInFLMikeInFL Posts: 10,192 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I think the never-ending quarter series (states, territories (WTH?), national parks, whoknowswhatsnext, ...) is more damaging to collectors than what's going on with the NCLT/bullion. The former reminds me of baseball cards in the late 80's. >>



    +1

    Only a matter of time before the market will become saturated and collapse, IMO.
    Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
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    shorecollshorecoll Posts: 5,447 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not to hijack, but I also think that mintages should not be released until the following year...you pays yer money and ya takes yer chances. I would like to have seen the ASE mintage if they didn't tell anyone in advance that it was a limited edition.
    ANA-LM, NBS, EAC
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    << <i>Patterns to test designs for circulation - yes. >>



    Why is this okay?
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    messydeskmessydesk Posts: 20,850 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I think the never-ending quarter series (states, territories (WTH?), national parks, whoknowswhatsnext, ...) is more damaging to collectors than what's going on with the NCLT/bullion. The former reminds me of baseball cards in the late 80's. >>


    Plus you have to get every one of them with normal, First Strike, and special, issue-specific label designs.
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    FunwithMPLFunwithMPL Posts: 333 ✭✭✭
    MidLifeCrisis you have the correct username with this post.
    Collector
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    Mission16Mission16 Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭
    I tend to agree with this view. But, let's not forget that the Mint is merely the vehicle for most of these collecter coins: they are being driven by legislation. And legislation is driven by special interests.
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    ModCrewmanModCrewman Posts: 4,054 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The interest generated by modern mint products produced only for collectors is the wrong kind of interest. It's fleeting. It doesn't seem to build in young collectors any long-term interest in the hobby - in the classic, historical coins and the stories behind them that attracted me to the hobby as a kid and brought me back as an adult. >>

    With this I disagree.

    My first ever coin purchase was a 2009 Lincoln Chronicles Set, yes it was purchased with the intent to make a few bucks (though I still own it). However, the enjoyment of that proof set, caused me to start researching the history of proof sets, and has drawn my eye to the 1950-70 proofs. As that set nears completion I'm now turning more to earlier series, classic silver commemoratives, and even purchased a few Morgans.

    I'd like to think the modern proof sets were, at least to a certain extent, part of my re-entry into the hobby.
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    SpeedieSpeedie Posts: 104 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>The interest generated by modern mint products produced only for collectors is the wrong kind of interest. It's fleeting. It doesn't seem to build in young collectors any long-term interest in the hobby - in the classic, historical coins and the stories behind them that attracted me to the hobby as a kid and brought me back as an adult. >>

    With this I disagree.

    My first ever coin purchase was a 2009 Lincoln Chronicles Set, yes it was purchased with the intent to make a few bucks (though I still own it). However, the enjoyment of that proof set, caused me to start researching the history of proof sets, and has drawn my eye to the 1950-70 proofs. As that set nears completion I'm now turning more to earlier series, classic silver commemoratives, and even purchased a few Morgans.

    I'd like to think the modern proof sets were, at least to a certain extent, part of my re-entry into the hobby. >>



    Same story here, except in my case it was a 2006 ASE 20th Anniversary set that I picked up "free" with Ebay bucks. It was a gateway drug to a complete set of ASEs, then a complete set of PCGS graded Kennedy proofs, and now a 12 piece gold type set.

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    jmski52jmski52 Posts: 24,018 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I simply disagree. Totally.image
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
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    LanLordLanLord Posts: 11,756 ✭✭✭✭✭
    MidLifeCrisis is on your ignore list


    image
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    DNADaveDNADave Posts: 7,350 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I thought I agreed until I realized that I prefer Silver Eagles over other 'brands'.

    image
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    RYKRYK Posts: 35,801 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>The interest generated by modern mint products produced only for collectors is the wrong kind of interest. It's fleeting. It doesn't seem to build in young collectors any long-term interest in the hobby - in the classic, historical coins and the stories behind them that attracted me to the hobby as a kid and brought me back as an adult. >>

    With this I disagree.

    My first ever coin purchase was a 2009 Lincoln Chronicles Set, yes it was purchased with the intent to make a few bucks (though I still own it). However, the enjoyment of that proof set, caused me to start researching the history of proof sets, and has drawn my eye to the 1950-70 proofs. As that set nears completion I'm now turning more to earlier series, classic silver commemoratives, and even purchased a few Morgans.

    I'd like to think the modern proof sets were, at least to a certain extent, part of my re-entry into the hobby. >>



    Same story here, except in my case it was a 2006 ASE 20th Anniversary set that I picked up "free" with Ebay bucks. It was a gateway drug to a complete set of ASEs, then a complete set of PCGS graded Kennedy proofs, and now a 12 piece gold type set. >>


    These stories are great to hear. image
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    MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,618 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Patterns to test designs for circulation - yes. >>



    Why is this okay? >>


    Because I said so.

    image








    Actually, because I see it as a necessary step in the process that leads to a new coin minted for circulation.
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    TomBTomB Posts: 23,232 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Perhaps you should be blaming Congress for the legislation that requires the Mint to act in certain ways. Regardless, the Mint produces positive revenue doing this and should not, in my opinion, be overly concerned with the hobby-industry.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    << <i>I think the never-ending quarter series (states, territories (WTH?), national parks, whoknowswhatsnext, ...) is more damaging to collectors than what's going on with the NCLT/bullion. The former reminds me of baseball cards in the late 80's. >>



    Why is this any different then any other current coinage being produced?
    Winner of the "You Suck!" award March 17, 2010 by LanLord, doh, 123cents and Bear.
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    keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Some Mint director a long time ago thought "Hey, we can make some money if we do this!" But it has had a negative impact on the hobby and on numismatics.

    i would disagree and respectfully argue that the types of things you feel have negatively affected the Hobby have probably done as much to stimulate interest as anything else.
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    ambro51ambro51 Posts: 14,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    .....we'll probably NEVER go back to melted down cannons and screw presses again.

    image
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    MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,618 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Perhaps you should be blaming Congress for the legislation that requires the Mint to act in certain ways. Regardless, the Mint produces positive revenue doing this and should not, in my opinion, be overly concerned with the hobby-industry. >>


    I'm not blaming anybody. I'm simply sharing my opinion. image

    But let's look at the original legislation (The Mint Act of April 2, 1792) and what it required of the Mint. I bet you won't find a reference to coins minted only for collectors; to bullion coinage; to non-circulating legal tender; or even to commemoratives. At some point since then, Congress produced supplemental legislation requiring the Mint to produce these items. IMO, they never should have done that.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    ESTABLISHING A NATIONAL MINT
    (Regulating coins of the United States)

    The Mint Act of April 2, 1792.

    Establishing a mint and regulating the coins of the United States.

    SEC.1 Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, and it is hereby enacted and declared, That a Mint for the purpose of a national coinage be, and the same is established; to be situated and carried on at the seat of the Government of the United States, for the time being: And that for the well conducting of the business of the said Mint, there shall be the following officers and persons, namely, -- a Director, an assayer, a chief coiner, an engraver, a treasurer.

    SEC. 2. And be it further enacted, That the Director of the Mint shall employ as many clerks, workmen, and servants as he shall from time to time find necessary, subject to the approbations of the President of the United States.

    SEC. 3. And be it further enacted, That the respective functions and duties of the officers above mentioned shall be as follow: The Director of the Mint shall have the chief management of the business thereof, and shall superintend all others officers and persons who shall be employed therein. The assayer shall receive and give receipts for all metals which may lawfully be brought to the Mint to be coined; shall assay all such of them as may require it, and shall deliver them to the chief coiner to be coined. The chief coiner shall cause to be coined all metals which shall be received by him for that purpose, according to such regulations as shall be prescribed by this or any future law. The engraver shall sink and prepare the necessary dies for such coinage, with the proper devices and inscriptions, but it shall be lawful for the functions and duties of chief coiner and engraver to be performed by one person. The treasurer shall receive from the chief coiner all the coins which have been struck, and shall pay or deliver them to the persons respectively to whom the same ought to be paid or delivered; he shall morever [more ever] receive and safely keep all monies which shall be for the use, maintenance and support of the Mint, and shall disburse the same upon warrants signed by the Director.

    SEC.4. And be it further enacted, That every officer and clerk of the said Mint shall, before he enters upon the execution of his office, take an oath or affirmation before some judge of the United States faithfully and diligently to perform the duties thereof.

    SEC.5. And be it further enacted, That the said assayer, chief coiner and treasurer, previously to entering upon the execution of their respective offices, shall each become bound to the United States of America, with one or more sureties to the satisfaction of the Secretary of the Treasury, in the sum of ten thousand dollars, with condition for the faithful and diligent performance of the duties of his office.

    SEC.6. And be it further enacted, That there shall be allowed and paid as compensations for their respective services—To the said Director, yearly salary of two thousand dollars, to the said assayer, a yearly salary of one thousand five hundred dollars, to the said chief coiner, a yearly salary of one thousand five hundred dollars, to the said engraver, a yearly salary of one thousand two hundred dollars, to the said treasurer, a yearly salary of one thousand two hundred dollars, to each clerk who may be employed, a yearly salary not exceeding five hundred dollars, and to the several subordinate workmen and servants, such wages and allowances as are customary and reasonable, according to their respective stations and occupations.

    SEC.7. And be it further enacted, That the accounts of the officers and persons employed in and about the said Mint and for services performed in relation thereto, and all other accounts concerning the business and administration thereof, shall be adjusted and settled in the Treasury Department of the United States, and a quarter yearly account of the receipts and disbursements of the said Mint shall rendered at the said Treasury for settlement according to such forms and regulations as shall have been prescribed by that Department; and that once in each year a report of the transactions of the said Mint, accompanied by an abstract of the settlements which shall have been from time to time made, duly certified by the Comptroller of the Treasury, shall be laid before Congress for their information.

    SEC. 8. And be it further enacted, That in addition to the authority vested in the President of the United States by a resolution of the last session, touching the engagement of artists and the procuring of apparatus for the said Mint, the President be authorized, and he is hereby authorized to cause to be provided and put in proper condition such buildings, and such manner shall appear to him requisite for the purpose of carrying on the business of the said Mint; and that as well the expenses which shall have been incurred pursuant to the said resolution as those which may be incurred in providing and preparing the said buildings,, and all other expenses which may hereafter accrue for the maintenance and support of the said Mint, and in carrying on the business thereof, over and above the sums which may be received by reason of the rate per centum for coinage herein after mentioned, shall be defrayed from the Treasury of the United States, out of any monies which from time to time shall be therein, not otherwise appropriated.

    SEC.9. And be it further enacted, That there shall be from time to time struck and coined at the said mint, coins of gold, silver, and copper, of the following denominations, values and descriptions, viz. Eagles—each to be of the value of ten dollars or units, and to contain two hundred fort-seven grains and four eighths of a grain of pure, or two hundred and seventy grains of standard gold. Half eagles—each to be of the value of five dollars, and to contain one hundred and twenty three grains and six eights of a grain of pure, or one hundred and thirty five grains of standard gold. Quarter Eagles—each to be of the value of two dollars and a half dollar, and to contain sixty one grains and seven eights of a grain of pure, or sixty seven grains and four eights of a grain of standard gold. Dollars or the same is now current, and to contain three hundred and seventy-one grains and four sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or four hundred and sixteen grains of standard silver, Half Dollars—each to be of half the value of the dollar or unit, and to contain one hundred and eighty-five grains and ten sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or two hundred and eights of a grain of standard silver. Quarter Dollars—each to be of one fourth the value of the dollar or unit, and to contain ninety-two grains and thirteen sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or one hundred and four grains of standard silver. Dismes—each to be of the value of one tenth of a dollar or unit, and to contain thirty seven grains and two sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or forty one grains and three fifth parts of a grain of standard silver. Half Dismes — each to be of the value of one twentieth of a dollar, and to contain eighteen grains and nine sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or twenty grains and four fifth parts of a grain of standard silver. Cents—each to be of the value of the one hundredth part of a dollar, and to contain eleven penny-weights of copper. Half Cents—each to be of the value of half a cent, and to contain five penny-weights and half a penny-weight of copper.

    SEC.10. And be it further enacted, That, upon the said coins respectively, there shall be the following devices and legends, namely: Upon one side of each of the said coins there shall be an impression emblematic of liberty, with an inscription of the word Liberty, and the year of the coinage; and upon the reverse of each of the gold and silver coins there shall be the figure or representation of an eagle, with this inscription, “UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,” and upon the reverse of each of the copper coins, there shall be an inscription which shall express the denomination of the piece, namely, cent or half-cent, as the ease may require.

    SEC. 11. And be it further enacted, That the proportional value of gold to silver in all coins which shall by law be current as money within the United States, shall be as fifteen to one, according to quantity in weight, of pure gold or pure silver; that is to say, every fifteen pounds weight of pure silver shall be of equal value in all payments, with one pound weight of pure gold, and so in proportion as to any greater or less quantities of the respective medals.

    SEC. 12. And be it further enacted, That the standard for all gold coins of the United States shall be eleven parts fine to one part alloy; and accordingly that eleven parts in twelve of the entire weight of each of the said coins shall consist of pure gold, and the remaining one twelfth part of alloy; and the said alloy shall be composed of silver and copper, in such proportions not exceeding one half silver as shall be found convenient; to be regulated by the director of the mint, the United States, until further provision shall be made by law. And to the end that the necessary information may be had in order to the making of such further provision, it shall be the duty of the director of the mint at the expiration of a year after commencing the operations of the said mint, to report to Congress the practice thereof during the said year, touching the composition of the alloy of the said gold coins, the reasons for such practice, and the experiment and observation which shall have been concerning the effects of different proportions of silver and copper in the said alloy.

    SEC. 13. And be it further enacted, That the standard of all silver coins of the United States shall be one thousand four hundred and eighty-five parts fine to one hundred and seventy-nine parts alloy; and accordingly that one thousand four hundred and eighty-five parts in one thousand six hundred and sixty four parts of the entire weight of each of the said coins shall consist of pure silver, and the remaining one hundred and seventy-nine parts of alloy; which alloy shall be wholly of copper.

    SEC. 14. And be it further enacted, That it shall be lawful for any person or persons to bring to the said mint gold and silver bullion, in order to their being coined; and that the bullion so brought shall be there assayed and coined as speedily as may be after the re-ceipt thereof, and that free of expense to the person or persons by whom the said bullion shall be been coined, the person or persons by whom the same shall have been delivered, shall upon demand receive in lieu thereof coins of the same species of bullion which gold or pure silver therein contained: Provided nevertheless, bringing such bullion, and of the direction of the said mint, to make an immediate exchange of coins for standard bullion with a deduction of one half per cent. from the weight of the pure gold, or pure silver contained in the said bullion, as an indemnification to the mint for the time which will necessarily be required for coining the said bullion, and for the advance which shall have been so made in coins. And it shall be the duty of the Secretary of the Treasury to furnish the said mint from time to time whenever the state of the Treasury will admit thereof, with such sums as may be necessary for effecting the said exchanges, to be replaced as speedily as may be out of the coins which shall have been made of the bullion for which the monies so furnished shall have been exchanged; and the said deduction of one half per cent shall constitute a fund towards defraying the expenses of the said mint.

    SEC. 15. And be it further enacted, That the bullion which shall be brought as aforesaid to the mint to be coined, shall be coined, and the equivalent thereof in coins rendered, if demanded, in the order in which the said bullion shall have been brought or delivered, giving priority according to priority of delivery only, and without preference to any person or persons; and if any preference shall be given contrary to the direction aforesaid, the officer by whom such undue preference shall be given, shall in each case forfeit and pay one thousand dollar; to be recovered with costs of suit. And to the end that it may be known if such preference shall at any time be given, the assayer or officer to whom the said bullion shall be delivered to be coined, shall give to the person or persons bringing the same, a memorandum in writing under his hand, denoting the weight, fineness and value thereof, together with the day and order of its delivery into the mint.

    SEC. 16. And be it further enacted, That all the gold and silver coins which have been struck at, and issued from the said mint, shall be a lawful tender in all payments whatsoever, those of full weight according to the respective values herein before declared, and those of less than full weight at values proportional to their respective weights.

    SEC. 17. And be it further enacted, That it shall be the duty of the respective officers of the said mint, carefully and faithfully to use their best endeavors that all the gold and silver coins which shall be struck at the said mint shall be, as nearly as may be, conformable to the several standards and weights aforesaid, and that the copper whereof the cents and half cents aforesaid may be composed, shall be of good quality.

    SEC. 18. And be it further enacted, Ant the better to secure a due conformity of the said gold and silver coins to their respective standards, Be it further enacted, That from every separate mass of standard gold or silver, which shall be made into coins at the said Mint, there shall be taken, set apart by the Treasurer and reserved in his custody a certain number of pieces, not less than three, and that once in every year the pieces so set apart and reserved, shall be assayed under the inspection of the Chief Justice of the United States, the Secretary for the Department of State, and the Attorney General of the United States, (who are hereby required to attend for that purpose at the said Mint, on the last Monday in July in each year, or under the inspection of any three of them, in such manner as they or a majority of them shall direct, and in the presence of the Director, assayer and chief coiner of the said Mint; and it shall be found that the gold and silver so assayed, shall not be inferior to their respective standards herein before declared more than one part in one hundred and forty-four parts, the officer or officers of the said Mint whom it may concern shall be held excusable; but if any greater inferiority shall appear, it shall be certified to the President of the United States, and the said officer or officers shall be deemed disqualified to hold their respective offices.

    SEC. 19. And be it further enacted, That if any of the gold or silver coins which shall be struck or coined at the said Mint shall be debased or made worse as to the proportion of fine gold or fine silver therein contained, or shall be of less weight or value than the same ought to be pursuant to connivance of any of the officers or persons who shall be employed at the said Mint, for the purpose of profit or gain, officers or persons shall embezzle any of the metals which shall at any time be committed to their charge for the purpose of being coined at the said Mint, every such officer or person who shall commit any or either of the said offences, shall be deemed guilty of felony, and shall suffer death.

    SEC. 20. And be it further enacted, That the money of account of the United States shall be expressed in dollars or units, dismes or tenths, cents or hundredths, and miles or thousandths, a disme being a tenth part of a dollar, a cent the hundredth part of a dollar, a mille the thousandths part of a dollar, and that all accounts in public offices and all proceedings in the courts of the United States shall be kept and had in conformity to this regulation.
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    BaleyBaley Posts: 22,663 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Citing a 219 year old document does not strengthen the case that your opionion on this subject is old fashioned and quaint.

    that said, I agree with you

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

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    CoinspongeCoinsponge Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭
    What does it hurt? Make that case.
    Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
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    ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,785 ✭✭✭✭
    This is the primary reason why I don't collect proofs. Items made specifically for "collecting" are often losers.




    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
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    GrumpyEdGrumpyEd Posts: 4,749 ✭✭✭
    I ignore most coins that were not the circulating issues and finish.
    The proofs I do like are the MPLs and the other 1942 and older proofs.

    Instead of hating the NCLTs I ignore them and consider them not for me but if someone else wants to collect em it's fine with me. image

    It may get worse, the mint was selling spoons etc...
    I'll barf if they start with car coins with headlights and guitars like another government that went overboard trying to make a buck on it.
    What's next a talking coin?


    Ed
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    MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,618 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>What does it hurt? Make that case. >>


    I thought I did when I said in the OP: The interest generated by modern mint products produced only for collectors is the wrong kind of interest. It's fleeting. It doesn't seem to build in young collectors any long-term interest in the hobby - in the classic, historical coins and the stories behind them that attracted me to the hobby as a kid and brought me back as an adult. Instead, the interest is in bullion values, flipping for a profit, obtaining a 70 slab grade, etc.
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    jmski52jmski52 Posts: 24,018 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I thought I did when I said in the OP: The interest generated by modern mint products produced only for collectors is the wrong kind of interest. It's fleeting. It doesn't seem to build in young collectors any long-term interest in the hobby - in the classic, historical coins and the stories behind them that attracted me to the hobby as a kid and brought me back as an adult. Instead, the interest is in bullion values, flipping for a profit, obtaining a 70 slab grade, etc.

    People collect different things and for different reasons. You have an outstanding set of Early Americans in high grades. If the history and stories are important to you, why then do you collect the top-of-the-line coins? Couldn't you make the same historical associations using G-4 specimens?

    Why is my interest in bullion values a lesser endeavor than your interest in expensive colonials? The American Eagle Bullion coins got me back into coin collecting as an adult, just like the classic coins brought you back as an adult. And then I chose Large Cents as well to collect.

    And ah yes, the profit motive. I combine the profit motive with most coins I buy. I hold most of my modern bullion coins for a long time, decades even. That's hardly flipping, and even if I chose to flip them I don't see that it should matter to anyone else.

    I enjoy many of your posts and I appreciate the fantastic threads that you've contributed just in the short time that I've been around here, but I disagree with you about your contention that these coins are somehow detrimental to coin collecting. Not everyone can collect the way that you do. I'm just sayin'....
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
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    CoinspongeCoinsponge Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭
    I think that all to often we only see things through the lenses of our own experiences and form conlusions based on them and desire to project those conclusions on everyone. It is hard not to do.
    Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
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    MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,618 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>People collect different things and for different reasons. You have an outstanding set of Early Americans in high grades. If the history and stories are important to you, why then do you collect the top-of-the-line coins? Couldn't you make the same historical associations using G-4 specimens? >>


    Thanks for your compliment about my collection. I'm not sure I could get the same historical associations with G-4 specimens. Design details are important. In any case, like most people, I collect the best pieces I can afford and that are nice representatives for type. For what it's worth, I do have coins in grades ranging from F15, VF20, XF45, on up.


    << <i>Why is my interest in bullion values a lesser endeavor than your interest in expensive colonials? >>


    It's not a lesser endeavor...it's a different endeavor. And it's not an endeavor I would call coin collecting. But that's just my opinion. If your activities make you happy, then I'm happy for you.


    << <i>The American Eagle Bullion coins got me back into coin collecting as an adult, just like the classic coins brought you back as an adult. And then I chose Large Cents as well to collect. And ah yes, the profit motive. I combine the profit motive with most coins I buy. I hold most of my modern bullion coins for a long time, decades even. That's hardly flipping, and even if I chose to flip them I don't see that it should matter to anyone else. >>


    I think you are an exception to the rule I posted. And that rule, by the way, is simply my perception. Also, whether you flip them or not doesn't matter to me.


    << <i>I enjoy many of your posts and I appreciate the fantastic threads that you've contributed just in the short time that I've been around here, but I disagree with you about your contention that these coins are somehow detrimental to coin collecting. Not everyone can collect the way that you do. I'm just sayin'.... >>


    Again...thanks. But you haven't changed my mind.
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    bumanchubumanchu Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>People collect different things and for different reasons. You have an outstanding set of Early Americans in high grades. If the history and stories are important to you, why then do you collect the top-of-the-line coins? Couldn't you make the same historical associations using G-4 specimens? >>


    Thanks for your compliment about my collection. I'm not sure I could get the same historical associations with G-4 specimens. Design details are important. In any case, like most people, I collect the best pieces I can afford and that are nice representatives for type. For what it's worth, I do have coins in grades ranging from F15, VF20, XF45, on up.


    << <i>Why is my interest in bullion values a lesser endeavor than your interest in expensive colonials? >>


    It's not a lesser endeavor...it's a different endeavor. And it's not an endeavor I would call coin collecting. But that's just my opinion. If your activities make you happy, then I'm happy for you.


    << <i>The American Eagle Bullion coins got me back into coin collecting as an adult, just like the classic coins brought you back as an adult. And then I chose Large Cents as well to collect. And ah yes, the profit motive. I combine the profit motive with most coins I buy. I hold most of my modern bullion coins for a long time, decades even. That's hardly flipping, and even if I chose to flip them I don't see that it should matter to anyone else. >>


    I think you are an exception to the rule I posted. And that rule, by the way, is simply my perception. Also, whether you flip them or not doesn't matter to me.


    << <i>I enjoy many of your posts and I appreciate the fantastic threads that you've contributed just in the short time that I've been around here, but I disagree with you about your contention that these coins are somehow detrimental to coin collecting. Not everyone can collect the way that you do. I'm just sayin'.... >>


    Again...thanks. But you haven't changed my mind. >>



    My mind hasn't been changed either and I am somewhere in the middle on all of this!
    And I ain't lying this time.
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    I disagree. Classic commems, modern commems, silver, gold and platinum eagles, proof sets, all add something to the hobby. Without them the hobby would be poorer, not richer, with fewer collectors, and fewer dealers.

    Of course there is a point of too much. That said, some of the most boring times in U.S. coinage are when the mint wasn't doing anything for collectors. In the early 1970s, there were no commems, the proof sets were of low quality, no eagle bullion coins and that was like a dark age for issued coinage. I'm sure some retrogrouches favor a return to another "dark age," but I am not in that group.

    /edit to add: there are retrogrouches in every hobby (the term is mostly for bicycles), and in most cases, they think they are better, purer than the rest. Truth, while there are some nice guys in the group, there are also some of the most miserable people in all the world too. The miserable ones rain on everyone's parade. Tell them how they are not worthy, how they don't even belong in the same hobby, just like the originator of this thread just did.

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    rec78rec78 Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In some ways I agree and others I disagree. I think that the mint should always mint silver and gold bullion coins without mintage limits for a small premium over bullion. Let us not forget that we live in a fiat currency world. The first state quarters were a good idea but it should have stopped there. If the mint gets like Canada and goes hog wild with new design after new design after new design-The coin collecting world will soon be overwhelmed and interest will drop fast in collecting coins. I think that design changes are good but not too many at once. I also think that a mandatory change in design should be made say after a design has graced a coin for 25 years. Lincoln has not changed in 102 years. They could at least make him face the other way for a while.
    The state quarter program started an awful lot of new coin collectors that would otherwise may never have taken an interest. JMO Bob
    image
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    ObiwancanoliObiwancanoli Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Perhaps you should be blaming Congress for the legislation that requires the Mint to act in certain ways. Regardless, the Mint produces positive revenue doing this and should not, in my opinion, be overly concerned with the hobby-industry. >>



    Hasn't the hobby industry actually made a lot of money for the Mint?
    UBERCOINER

    A Truth That's Told With Bad Intent
    Beats All The Lies You Can Invent
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    NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,833 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have no issue with the concept of circulating and non-circulating commemoritive coins, but the US Mint has gone overboard, releasing too many issues in too short of time. Government institutions should not be operated as profit centers (and I question whether a profit is actually made, when all costs are considered)

    For the bullion coins, I think they are great. Since we don't have circulating gold & silver, the Mint should continue to release as much bullion as the public will absorb, PM's have always been a good store of wealth for the long term and everyone should own some gold and silver.

    Section 10 of the 1792 Mint Act should be adhered to, Congress never wanted Presidents on coins, as awareness of the ideals of liberty is more important than idolizing past Presidents.
    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
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    RYKRYK Posts: 35,801 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I question whether a profit is actually made, when all costs are considered

    As do I.
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    leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,571 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I tend to agree with this view. But, let's not forget that the Mint is merely the vehicle for most of these collecter coins: they are being driven by legislation. And legislation is driven by special interests. >>



    Exactly! And our grading companies are merely vehicles, catering to whoever wants something encapsulated............

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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    sumnomsumnom Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭
    I generally agree but the way I deal with it is by limiting my collection to business strikes. For me, mint issues that are not business strikes are not coins. I know most disagree with this but that's OK. We can all collect whatever and however we want. It's no skin off my teeth.

    I do make one exception to this rule: sacs. I like them so much that I have the whole series 2000-2008 (P and D only), even though the only business strikes are 2000-2001. I still refuse the proofs.

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    The modern coins created by the US Mint do generate a fair share of "new" coin collectors. Any of the older more 'historical' pieces carry a much higher price tag, to which most new collectors won't pay for.
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    jmski52jmski52 Posts: 24,018 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Mint makes some very nice stuff occasionally and a few dogs as well, but on the whole they don't do a bad job. It's also true that the Mint can't seem get out of its own way - with too many issues and too many flavors of each issue. That much I will concede. From that perspective, I really can't remember when the Mint Director really had any understanding of what collectors want. Then again, it's never really been about collectors.

    It's one of my favorite pastimes to try and guess whether or not the Mint will screw something up in their schedule, or pricing, or order execution - and whether collector demand will be strong or weak as a result. I think of it as cheap entertainment that can also make me some money. Many of my best Modern coins, bullion and otherwise - are the result of gross mismanagement by the Mint. And so it goes. It's all part of coin collecting, in my oh, so humble opinion.image
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
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    MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,618 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image inspired by Orville's "You have been appointed Director of the US Mint..." thread.

    image
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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is the 1804 dollar the first coin made outside the requirements for commerce?
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    ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,785 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>IMO, the US Mint should never have started making coins specifically for collectors. >>



    This is why I don't collect proof coinage.

    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>IMO, the US Mint should never have started making coins specifically for collectors. >>



    This is why I don't collect proof coinage. >>



    Good point. Proof dollars started appearing in 1801.
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    kiyotekiyote Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Comics went through this, too. I collected (well, read) the X-Men comic when keeping up with it was about $3.00 a month. Then they started cranking out so many cross-overs, new editions, reboots, etc that I gave up.
    "I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
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    bidaskbidask Posts: 14,057 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't collect coins made from the mint but alot of people enjoy doing so........

    Let them flip, collect hoard or trade....its all enjoyable....

    So what is the big deal?

    Besides our government needs the revenue...!
    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




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    Mission16Mission16 Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Patterns to test designs for circulation - yes. >>



    Why is this okay? >>



    Yes. Why? They would have to make billions of them in order for them to actually circulate. Otherwise folks would pull them out of change as soon as they saw them. If they ever actually MADE it into circulation.
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    Mission16Mission16 Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭
    As I've mentioned elsewhere, onlt the basics should be sold as collectables. Mint and Proof sets. Single proof bullion. Annual commemerative.

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