Minoso

markj111

Here is a posting from the SABR distribution list. I found it interesting.

I would like to make a final point. Minoso was, without question, a star player from the moment he assumed a regular job until about a decade later. A few years before he got his chance with the White Sox he was an All-Star in the Negro Leagues. More than five years before his got his chance, he was a star in the Cuban Winter League. One can dissect his pre-MLB record how one wishes, but does anyone else find this exercise distasteful?


Let me spell this out: he was FORBIDDEN from playing in the Jim Crow(American and National) Leagues, and now some of you are demanding that his proponents justify his case statistically. It seems to me, to be frank,that the exclusion of Minoso in favor of dozens of players from the Segregated Era is embarrassing.

Minnie Minoso played in the best leagues that would allow him to play, and he starred. When the Rich White Guys allowed him into the White Leagues, he starred. Regardless of your JAWS, Minnie Minoso would bring honor to the Hall of Fame.

For those of you who insist that Only The Numbers Matter: There are 19 Hallof Famers who played at least half of their careers as LFers. Using Baseball-Reference's version of WAR, Minoso is ahead of 6 of them. If Segregation cost Minoso 10 WAR points (conservative, I believe), he would move up to 9th, meaning the upper half of the left fielders. When you add the social issues, his omission is ridiculous. By the way, I generally don't take the Hall arguments that seriously.There are at least 50 players outside the Hall that have a good case in my view, and 50 inside whose cases are shaky. People who believe they "know"who belongs and doesn't belong (using statistics only) mystify me. But for my money, Minoso is a slam dunk.

RMac

Could not agree more...

PowderedH2O

Minnie is used to getting the shaft, so this is no surprise. He lost out on the Rookie of the Year when he was clearly the better player. Minoso finishes 4th for MVP and McDougald finishes 9th, but McDougald gets the ROY. Hmmmm..... I think Minoso was 26 as a "rookie". I guess we could reasonably assume he could have been in the majors at least 3-4 years earlier. That would give him another 600-700 hits if he was a regular. That puts him in that 2600 range. A very nice total. My only guess is that people don't like his game. Most of the players voted in from that time are power hitting sluggers or guys with gaudy batting averages. A guy that does all of the little things like getting on base by walking and rarely striking out, stealing some bases, hitting triples, and playing defense doesn't get the publicity of the other guys. Plus he played for the White Sox and was a black Cuban player, so the white media wasn't paying a lot of attention to him.

Without the missing years it is hard to know exactly, but I'd be willing to take a flyer on a guy that has a lifetime OPS+ of 130, multiple gold gloves, and FOUR top 4 MVP voting seasons. Someone was paying attention. But, those writers are long gone...

JoeBanzai

I read a great biography of "Minnie" and it looks to me that he certainly could be in the HOF. Statistics are great tools to HELP evaluate players, but are only one (very important) part of the equation.

Joe

TheTalkingWalnut

You guys make a good case. I mainly remember him from the 76 or 77 Topps special card when he was the oldest guy to get a hit. And yes, looking at his MLB stats, he's a moderately strong fringe guy, like two of my faves, Bill Madlock and Al Oliver. 10 sold .300s; above average distribution of 2Bs, 3Bs and HRs (how many 3Bs did any of the steroids guys get put together???). I don't know a single thing about his Negro League stats or reputation, but assuming he was a stud from 19 - 24 that should be more than enough to put him in. I like Andre Dawson and Jim Rice but c'mon, those guys were banging barmaids and getting comped meals at the same places Minnie Minoso couldn't even use the toilet in 20 years before....

benderbroeth

great thread!

fiveniner

Minnie should have gone in long ago.It is a travisty that Minnie has not been allowed to enter the Hall yet.Minnie was also an ambassador of the game much like Buck O'Neil however lower profile.Till recently he still devoted much of his time to the game in one way or another.

SHAME ON THE VOTING COMMITTEE!!!

Saberman

The Hall does have "Character" as part of its criteria. Voters never seem to use it.

Rather, all the flawed elections stem from the misunderstanding of the statistics, and how they relate to runs and winning. That is where the mistake entries are typically enshrined.

If intangibles such as Character were actually used, that would have a big effect on a lot of the fringe players.


If voters are going to use statistics, then they darn well better educate themselves on them...because they are VERY objective...yet this is where they make their mistakes.