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Missing S-VDB
lkeigwin
Posts: 16,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
In the Letters column of the December 2011 issue of The Numismatist is the following. Any doubts about what likely happened?
Lance.
SEARCHING FOR 1909-S VDB CENT
I hope readers can help us track down a 1909-S VDB cent that changed hands at the ANA's Fall National Money Show in Pittsburgh in October. The coin was purchased at the Coin Carolina table, but the price was misquoted at $175; in actuality, the coin was valued at $5,700.
We tracked down the person who bought it, but unfortunately he had traded the cent for a Barber dime at another table. He did not remember the name of the dealer. The piece was encapsulated by PCGS (#126240015).
Anyone with information about this transaction is urged to contact Coin Carolina, phone 888-558-5250 (cell 704-904-0180) or email sherrilln@cfl.rr.com.
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(Note that the cert# is too long. It should be 12624015, I believe, a 65RD.)
Lance.
SEARCHING FOR 1909-S VDB CENT
I hope readers can help us track down a 1909-S VDB cent that changed hands at the ANA's Fall National Money Show in Pittsburgh in October. The coin was purchased at the Coin Carolina table, but the price was misquoted at $175; in actuality, the coin was valued at $5,700.
We tracked down the person who bought it, but unfortunately he had traded the cent for a Barber dime at another table. He did not remember the name of the dealer. The piece was encapsulated by PCGS (#126240015).
Anyone with information about this transaction is urged to contact Coin Carolina, phone 888-558-5250 (cell 704-904-0180) or email sherrilln@cfl.rr.com.
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(Note that the cert# is too long. It should be 12624015, I believe, a 65RD.)
Coin Photography Services / Everyman Registry set / BHNC #213
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Comments
What I am wondering, though, is what would happen if a dealer called and said "yeah, I traded this for a coin of similar value" what would happen? What then?
Unfortunate, but I don't see where anything illegal happened or how the dealer can get his coin back.
He tracked me down in less than 30 minutes and didn't see the humor in it. .
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Link
<< <i>The folks at Coin Carolina are always easy to talk to at shows. It appears that one of them read the coin as a 1909 VDB and not a 1909-S VDB. >>
Even an 09-S would go for far more than $175 in anything close to MS grades. So I don't think this is the cause for this pricing error.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
I don't see what good searching for it does. I'd think if the buyer would return it the reason would be his conscience not a legal obligation and I'd assume he made the choice to keep it as soon as he walked away from buying it.
bob
follow-ups !!!
<< <i>Wow, price rose $1,300 since April?
bob >>
That number does not include the 15% Buyer's Premium. And that assumes that dealer was the original TT buyer.
-Paul
What I find incredulous is that the buyer didn't know this. It's right there on the PCGS label. And if he really did trade it for a Barber dime the dealer taking the trade probably didn't make the same mistake. The S-VDB buyer must have known at some point.
I also think the average collector would remember what table this trade occurred at. Yeah, big shows are a frenzy but I never forget where I got a coin even if I can't remember the dealer's name.
Obviously I don't know what really happened but I suspect the buyer was underhanded. And if the Barber dime trade was just a story and he still had the S-VDB he probably unloaded it fast or cracked and submitted it. I hope karma kicks in and it genuines.
I feel badly for Coin Carolina. That's a pretty big loss for any dealer.
Lance.
You can't have just anyone handling your high-priced material.
I still don't understand what they think they can do to rectify this.
<< <i>I still don't understand what they think they can do to rectify this. >>
I think they are appealing to people's personal integrity.
Yes, it was a silly blunder but for the buyer to not know that it was a multi-thousand dollar coins says alot about his integrity.
I;m all for getting a terrific deal but this was just way over the top.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>I still don't understand what they think they can do to rectify this. >>
I think they are appealing to people's personal integrity.
Yes, it was a silly blunder but for the buyer to not know that it was a multi-thousand dollar coins says alot about his integrity.
I;m all for getting a terrific deal but this was just way over the top. >>
I agree with your thoughts 19Lyds, but it makes no sense to appeal to a person's integrity who has just demonstrated they don't have one.
<< <i>I'm with Tom. The dealer, or an asst, thought it was a VDB not an S-VDB.
What I find incredulous is that the buyer didn't know this. It's right there on the PCGS label. And if he really did trade it for a Barber dime the dealer taking the trade probably didn't make the same mistake. The S-VDB buyer must have known at some point.
I also think the average collector would remember what table this trade occurred at. Yeah, big shows are a frenzy but I never forget where I got a coin even if I can't remember the dealer's name.
Obviously I don't know what really happened but I suspect the buyer was underhanded. And if the Barber dime trade was just a story and he still had the S-VDB he probably unloaded it fast or cracked and submitted it. I hope karma kicks in and it genuines.
I feel badly for Coin Carolina. That's a pretty big loss for any dealer.
Lance. >>
I disagree I don't always remember where I got a coin at a big show, personally I have no sympathy for the dealer. If buyer beware applies why doesn't dealer beware apply. If I had been that lucky and the dealer called me up and said I under charged you, I would say tough luck. It is the dealers business to know coins and to sell them for what they believe is a fair price. It is my business to collect them and to pay what I believe is a fair price.
Dealers don't manufacture anything, dealers don't create anything, dealers don't invent anything, dealers don't improve anything, dealers don't do anything.
The whole premise of a dealer, their lively hood, their entire existence is built on the premise of buying low, marking it up and selling it for a profit. They are brokers, nothing more. They buy low and sell high. So when they can't even do something as simple as buy a coin (already graded and slabbed, so again, not even any talent here), mark it up more than a thousand dollars and sell it (again already graded and slabbed) without screwing that up, well boys and girls, there isn't much hope for them.
So a collector had a chance to do what dealers have been doing forever, buying low and selling high.
<< <i>I disagree I don't always remember where I got a coin at a big show, personally I have no sympathy for the dealer. If buyer beware applies why doesn't dealer beware apply. If I had been that lucky and the dealer called me up and said I under charged you, I would say tough luck. It is the dealers business to know coins and to sell them for what they believe is a fair price. It is my business to collect them and to pay what I believe is a fair price. >>
Your last line... "Pay what I believe is a fair price." Tell me you really do not think $175 for a mint state 09 - S VDB is a fair price. If you do you have other issues.
<< <i>
<< <i>I also think the average collector would remember what table this trade occurred at. Yeah, big shows are a frenzy but I never forget where I got a coin even if I can't remember the dealer's name. >>
I disagree I don't always remember where I got a coin at a big show, personally I have no sympathy for the dealer. If buyer beware applies why doesn't dealer beware apply. If I had been that lucky and the dealer called me up and said I under charged you, I would say tough luck. It is the dealers business to know coins and to sell them for what they believe is a fair price. It is my business to collect them and to pay what I believe is a fair price. >>
Well then, perhaps you are not the average collector. Still, no matter how you figure this played out, the Barber trade should have been very memorable. Either the guy was shocked and surprised or he was nervous and anxious. That trade, with that dealer at that table, wouldn't have been quickly forgotten.
Lance.
<< <i>I feel bad that this has happened to this dealer. But could this be considered a great cherrypick by the collector? >>
Absolutely not.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>So feel bad for the dealer, no and here is why.....
Dealers don't manufacture anything, dealers don't create anything, dealers don't invent anything, dealers don't improve anything, dealers don't do anything.
The whole premise of a dealer, their lively hood, their entire existence is built on the premise of buying low, marking it up and selling it for a profit. They are brokers, nothing more. They buy low and sell high. So when they can't even do something as simple as buy a coin (already graded and slabbed, so again, not even any talent here), mark it up more than a thousand dollars and sell it (again already graded and slabbed) without screwing that up, well boys and girls, there isn't much hope for them.
So a collector had a chance to do what dealers have been doing forever, buying low and selling high. >>
Obviously, you have a very high opinion of dealers. I do appreciate the fact that I would never have been able to have my collection were it not for those "dreaded" dealers. These "worthless" people who travel the show circuit around the country are people I have relied on for many a year (like 35 years). I have made many friends, gained much information and expertise, and obtained some wonderful coins that I would not otherwise have obtained. For those who really hate dealers, and despise their existence, the answer is simple: Don't ever go to a show or patronize a dealer anywhere ever again! Good luck looking for your special coins.
Regarding the OP, it is indeed a regrettable situation. What I find disturbing, though, is those who lack any degree of compassion. If the situation were reversed and the collector got screwed, everyone would want to hang the dealer and this thread count would be at least 450+. Sometimes we hold ourselves to a much lower standard the we hold others. But what it boils down to is this. What is wrong is wrong. There are scumbags on both sides of the table. Rather than choosing our side of the table, we should be choosing what is right and what is wrong.
Larry L.
<< <i>The whole premise of a dealer, their lively hood, their entire existence is built on the premise of buying low, marking it up and selling it for a profit. >>
As far a livelihoods go, most people don't deliberately engage in an activity that costs them more than the income generated by that activity. Doesn't make them bad people.
They guy that bought this is no different than someone who watches you accidently drop a $20 on the floor while reaching into your wallet to pay for something. He then waits for you to leave and picks it up and puts it in his pocket. They'll get theirs eventually.
<< <i>
Regarding the OP, it is indeed a regrettable situation. What I find disturbing, though, is those who lack any degree of compassion. If the situation were reversed and the collector got screwed, everyone would want to hang the dealer and this thread count would be at least 450+. Sometimes we hold ourselves to a much lower standard the we hold others. But what it boils down to is this. What is wrong is wrong. There are scumbags on both sides of the table. Rather than choosing our side of the table, we should be choosing what is right and what is wrong.
Larry L.
There's one difference though. Although people might sympathize with the collector, NO ONE would be publishing columns in a newspaper or positing threads about the coin the dealer ripped, expecting that if the dealer could be found with the coin, then the dealer should be expected to return it.
Instead, we'd hear about how the collector got an "education" or "paid tuition" and hopefully learned from their experience.
I'm not justifying what the collector did to the dealer. I think the golden rule applies on both sides of the table. However, I am pointing out an obvious double standard when it comes to issues like this. Dealers live by the sword, so they should be prepared to die by the sword.
Lance, I concede that point to you. The guy probably remembers the transaction. He shouldn't have lied. He should have just told the dealer tough luck.
I'm good with a little haggling. I guess I'm not okay with taking huge advantage of an obvious mistake...which ever side of the table it comes from.
Lance.
<< <i>Consider it the cost of doing business and nothing more. Yawn, >>
agreed
For what it is worth I once received coins from an eBay dealer that were not the coins I had bid on and were worth more than what I had ordered. I notified him that day to let him know of the mistake. He told me keep the coins for being honest that it was their mistake.
Ron
<< <i>He probably needs to pay a little more than minimum wage for his help. >>
+1
<< <i>I'm with Tom. The dealer, or an asst, thought it was a VDB not an S-VDB.
What I find incredulous is that the buyer didn't know this. It's right there on the PCGS label. And if he really did trade it for a Barber dime the dealer taking the trade probably didn't make the same mistake. The S-VDB buyer must have known at some point.
I also think the average collector would remember what table this trade occurred at. Yeah, big shows are a frenzy but I never forget where I got a coin even if I can't remember the dealer's name.
Obviously I don't know what really happened but I suspect the buyer was underhanded. And if the Barber dime trade was just a story and he still had the S-VDB he probably unloaded it fast or cracked and submitted it. I hope karma kicks in and it genuines.
I feel badly for Coin Carolina. That's a pretty big loss for any dealer.
Lance. >>
Why would the buyer lie about the Barber trade? He or she has no legal obligation to return the coin.
<< <i>Is this any different from ripping a friend on an oversight, or squeezing of an elderly couple who don't know better?
. >>
Yes; coin dealers should know what they're are doing and hire competent staff. If it was an error, then I'm sure the dealer's staff will be more careful in the future.
My table was across from Alan's at the Pittsburg show and I consider Alan a good friend. Unfortunately I know of another mistake made by his employee but it was rectified. The problem was not a lack of competance from Alan's employee....from what I understand his employee was still learning his code. For those that think Alan doesn't pay his employee enough, perhaps you should consider this! Even if he was paying minimum wage....I figure his expense for having an employee there was at least a grand. Nice dinners,hotel,and plane tickets! I can also assure you that I'm certain Alan was paying well north of minimum wage! Perhaps his employee doesn't have the numismatic knowledge one would expect...but anyone I know with experience is not going to work for a dealer for less than North of 50K per year plus expenses.
I also agree with the poster above that made the statement about not doing business with dealers....if you don't like dealers...then don't do business with them! Is a dealer a broker????? Only when he sells coins on consignment. Boy wouldn't it be nice if a stock broker had to pay for your stock before he sells it! Most Dealers tie up alot of bucks in their inventory. Many probably do not realize just how much of a job it is tyraveling around doing shows. It is alot of work. Believe me I would make much more money doing quite a few other types of work than I do being a dealer. The key point is...I like being a dealer. Fortunately for me I don't have any customers with the attitude I see posted here. If the majority of collectors had that attitude I can assure you I would stop dealing coins!
<< <i>I'm not sure I follow what you mean about "any doubts about what happened", unless you mean he didn't really trade the coin.
Unfortunate, but I don't see where anything illegal happened or how the dealer can get his coin back. >>
Even if they find it, There is probably nothing they can do to get it back. It was not stolen (even though it could be considered a "steal"). Tax loss.
That he wants to un-do the deal is understandable. That he is somehow entitled to it is absurd beyond belief. If the situation were reversed and the buyer had paid $5,700 for a coin that was actually worth only $175, would the dealer be scrambling to find the buyer and refund the difference?
Dealer (or his representative) quoted a price on the coin to the proposed buyer. The quoted price was accepted by the proposed buyer. The buyer then paid the accepted price for the coin.
offer + acceptance = contract The contract was fulfilled by the acceptance of the payment. Done deal.
Bailiff, what's next on the docket?
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm not sure I follow what you mean about "any doubts about what happened", unless you mean he didn't really trade the coin.
Unfortunate, but I don't see where anything illegal happened or how the dealer can get his coin back. >>
Even if they find it, There is probably nothing they can do to get it back. It was not stolen (even though it could be considered a "steal"). Tax loss. >>
Not necessarily. I took a law class once and I distinctly remember that if a mistake in a transaction is made by BOTH parties, it can be reversed. But not a mistake by one. In other words, if I rip you off badly buying your goods and I knew I was screwing you, then under the law, that's acceptable because the seller should beware. If I buy something from you and you rip me off, you can reasonably argue that caveat emptor applies. But if we both make a mistake, the seller could be reversed. I think a famous example of this is when someone sold a painting and it had an original copy of the declaration of independence hidden in it. Neither party knew it was there, so it was reversed. If the buyer was smart...a smart scumbag...he'd say..."heck yeah...I knew I was getting a great deal"....instead of..."I traded it for this dime because I didn't know it was valuable."
Any of your real life legal eagles want to expound?
Steve
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.