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Topps numbering system for cases from 80s and 90s
RookieWax
Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭
These cases always seem to have a 6 digit numbered stamp. Does anyone know if this was a sequential system and if they "crossed" between case types? For example, if a wax case, a vending case, and a rack case from the same year had similar numbers, were these packed/shipped sequentially around the same time?
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I'm bumping this old thread because I went searching for the answer to a similar question that @RookieWax asks. Anyone know anything about these numbers? For instance, I have a 1984 Topps Rack Case (3-box variety) and the stamped number on the outside is 110643. What do each of these numbers mean?
Andy
Hi Andy,
Now you have me curious as well. Are you simply curious, or are you hoping for a certain answer? In the same way that someone might hope for an 89Fleer FF case?
Thanks,
John
I don’t know what these stamped numbers mean, but I don’t think they are a product code, because that’s what the 981-84 is.
It could be a shipping code of some sort.
The 110,643 rd 3 box rack case off the line? lol.... ya never know
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
John,
I was just sitting in my "card room" --please don't picture @LOTSOS's card room because mine is nothing like that masterpiece--and I was staring at my cases of unopened and got to wondering about the numbers. I know there's a thread around here that interprets the '89 Fleer cases, but I couldn't understand the Topps numbering system. So I went searching through old threads for an answer. I found this one but noticed that no one had replied. I'm not looking for any card or print run or whatever; I'm just curious. These are the kinds of things I hunt for meanings behind. It's just who I am haha!
Someone out there has to know!
Andy
That would be kinda cool, actually. If that were the case, I'd want to try to find the earliest number off the line still in existence. This is the stuff I live for.
Andy
I thought I might have figured out at least one of the numbers of the six-digit code. The penultimate number (i.e., the 5th number in the sequence) appeared to be the number denoting the year. That is, if the 5th number were a 7, the case would be from 1987. My theory was working for many cases I was finding from 1987, 1986, and 1984, until I found a rack case from 1985 that had a 4 in the 5th slot. Then I started wondering if the case were made in late 1984. Is this probable or even possible? The three numbers that preceded the "4" on this rack case were "320." Could this be the 320th day of the year? That would put the case being made in late November 1984.
Any ideas, guys?
Andy
Sounds like the product code they use for cellos. It's possible they bought case boxes in bulk as well and used leftovers, assuming the box was pre-stamped for use in '84 and they just never got to it.
Arthur
The 1985 Topps Rack case in question is currently on eBay. Here is the one photo provided that shows the code.
I've been looking at as many rack, wax, and cello cases from 1981-1989 as I can, and every one I find matches my theory about the 5th number corresponding to the year, except this '85 Rack case. I found a 1981 Topps Football rack case, and the number was 1.
Andy
Ok, I'm convinced. The 5th number corresponds to the year. Here is a 1980 Case
And a 1978 case
And a very faint 1985
The above-mentioned 1985 case in my previous post must be from a 1984 manufacture date and very late 1984.
Andy
My 1986 Topps wax case has an indistinguishable first number, but reads X32162. So your theory of the 5th number being the year would hold true there as well.
kevin
@tulsaboy Thanks, Kevin!
Andy
I will check out some cases I have and report back in as well. Fun stuff guys.
John
This makes complete sense if they wanted to trace this box back to a manufacturing date. We use a similar method of coding where I work.
Kris
My 1971 Topps adventure - Davis Men in Black
Great stuff hop!
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
That code will be the production date. Since this has gum, FDA and USDA considers this "food" and you need to have a lot code to trace back in the event of a recall.
Other companies that had lot codes (Fleer for example) and although not required (no gum) I assume they did it in case there was a manufacturing error and they needed to trace back when it was produced so they can try to pinpoint what may of happened. We use lot codes at my job and keep logs of equipment breakdowns/work done and that could assist in figuring out what went wrong during manufacturing.
1989 Fleer starting printing in late 1988. So that 4 for the 1985 year is very likely.
I have seen lot codes on cases of cards for the day of the year (1-365), year and shift.
Bam! Now we're onto something. Good stuff, Donovan.
Okay, so then I'm pretty convinced that the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th numbers together make up the day of the year. So, if it the number is 128, it would be May 8th. I'm pretty convinced of this because I've not found a three-digit number in that slot go above, say, the 320s. If I find a case in which the 2nd number is a 4 or the collective three-digit combo is more than 365, then I'll know this theory is wrong.
Now, we all need to collectively figure out the 1st and 6th numbers. I have some hunches, but I need to do some more gathering.
Nice going, guys.
Andy
Just throwing this out there, but could that last number be the product code (i.e. 1=rack, 2=wax, 3=cello) or something along those lines?
The product code is printed on each outer case already. I assume the inked codes shown will be the day of year, Year, Shift and packing line/machine number used.
I'm in agriculture. When I pack cartons, I can use up to 9 lines/lanes of the same produce size. Each are numbered for maintenance. I've thought about adding that additional info but decided against it.
Brett, that's a theory I was trying to prove or disprove just now. I think I've disproved it with a 1987 Topps Cello case and a 1987 Topps Rack case (3-rack variety). One of the Rack cases ends in "1" and the other rack case ends in a "2." A cello case I found ends in a "2." I think Donovan @RyansRust is onto something here (experience tells) with "shift and packing line/machinery used," as he states. So, there go our theories, Brett. I was also trying to align the first number with cello, wax, rack, but that blew up in my face really quick, too!
Andy
Another thing to think about is one of those numbers could be the facility where they printed/packed. In 1989 Fleer outsourced to Outlook Graphics. If memory serves, all packing was done at Fleer. Using Fleer as an example, If they did pack at Outlook and in house, that could be the 1 or 2.
Good call. I'm sure a little research would reveal the plants Topps was working out of. Anyone know how many plants they used, and did they only operate out of Duryea?
Andy
I agree about one of the codes being a production site or line number. We do that where I work (frozen fruit). Each production line has a code. The year, production day and hour are all encoded as well, but in a way so others can't figure it out without a little work. It's all about traceability in case of a recall. We also keep detailed logs of breakdowns, preventive maintenance, and a lot of other things. With that one code we can tell you everything about the product from the field to the end customer.
Kris
My 1971 Topps adventure - Davis Men in Black
Damn. This is actually helping me in my Donruss research. You're the man, Andy!
Also, I just want to say, I live for threads like this. I love the smell of research in the morning. Smells like... victory.
Arthur
1984 cello case - 122342
1986 Vending - 411063
1986 Wax - 331461
I need to move stuff around to get some more. That’s what I have in front of me.
Awesome thread Andy!
John
Thanks for posting those numbers, John. It looks like that 1st number does not exceed 4. So it can be a 1, 2, 3, or 4. The last number, though, I have not seen exceed 3. This is good. Now if we can uncover how many plants/factories were in play, we might figure out which is which. I'm going to lean toward the 1st number being the plant/factory. As for the last number: Three shifts @ 8 hours per shift would be 24 hrs. And since we believe Topps was churning out these boxes around the clock, this theory might make sense.
Andy
Just what I could get to easily:
86 vending - 121162
87 vending - 412371
87 rack case -330471
88 vending - 221781
91 vending - 121811
I’d be surprised if The manufacturers had multiple facilities for card cutting and packaging. Wouldn’t make sense with such a low dollar product. That’s an interesting question.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I’m pretty sure that in the 70s the sheets were printed by Zabel Brothers in Philly and cut and packed at the Topps Facility in Duryea, PA. The business end was still run out of Brooklyn.
Here is an example of a purchase order from Topps to Zabel:
Great minds think alike... or something like that.
I don't suppose we've been able to figure out production numbers for that era?
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
That’s a really cool pic... thanks for sharing! I think the question being researched is if there were multiple cut and pack “factories” in regards to the stamp on cases. Were rack, cello, wax, trays, etc all packaged in one facility? I would tend to believe that’s the “case” pun intended.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Check out this photo of the Topps factory inside. I believe it's from 1974. Aren't those cello boxes on the left conveyor belt? And the wax boxes on the right?
Andy
Yep, sure looks that way. They are being hand packed too... today everyone but one or two in that photo wouldn’t be employed by them. Awesome pic
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I don't believe the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th digits form the day of the year, as I'm not seeing cases with a second digit of 0 (for the first 99 days of the year)
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=271009
This thread mentions case stamp. Good info. And an awesome thread.
John
You’re right! So, I’ve thought all day how to work around the fact that the second number never shows up in a zero. I couldn’t think of any logical reason. The first five numbers must be the date, and the sixth number must be the shift. I decided the latter because it was the last number and couldn’t have anything to do with the date because the year number (i.e., the fifth number) would be last in the date sequence.
Ok, are you all ready for this? I’m pretty sure I’ve figured this out. Take a stroll through my mind’s logic. If Topps wanted a code that only they would understand, then the code couldn’t be something like “032172,” meaning March 21, 1987, shift 2. But that’s only speculation. So, I started gathering as many case numbers as possible, and I began to see the limits of certain number slots in the sequence. For instance, the first number was only coming up 1, 2, 3, or 4. The second number was only coming up 1, 2, or 3. The third number contained that elusive 0, but it also could be a 1, 2, or 3 as well. It was the fourth number that told me what I needed to know. The fourth number comes before the year, and so we would expect this number to be the day. Well, the fourth number in the sequence, I found, would go all the way up to 9. Why is that important? Well, you need numbers 0-9 to make up the days of the month.
Ok, so I started working backward. I figure the third and fourth numbers had to be the day. So, in the following sequence of numbers from a 6-box rack case of 1987 Topps – 332971 – the year is 1987 because the fifth number is “7,” right? The day is the 29th. Now, how do we arrive at the month?
We’re left with “33.” I got to thinking. Why is the first number only represented as a 1, 2, 3, or 4? And why is the second number only represented as a 1, 2, or 3? If Topps broke up the calendar year in four quarters, the first number would refer to the specific quarter of the year. So in the example, 332971, the quarter of the year in which the case was made would be the third quarter or the months of July, August, and September. The second number in the sequence, then, is the month (i.e., in this case, September).
So the case that I’m using would look like this: 332971
3 = Quarter 3 (July, August, September)
3 = Third month in that quarter (September)
29 = 29th day of September
7 = 1987
1 = Shift #1
I also gathered a few case numbers that were, say, 1981, but had a “0” in the fifth slot, meaning it was produced in 1980. There was also a 1985 case that had a “4” in the fifth slot, making its production date 1984. In a 1986 case, the fifth number was a "6," making it a 1986 production case. In each of these cases, the first number in the sequence would have to be a 4. Why? Because the case would’ve had to have been put together in the fourth quarter (i.e., October, November, December). Here are the case sequence numbers for these three cases that I’m referring to:
1985 Topps Rack case – 432041 (4th quarter, 3rd month, 20th day, 1984, shift 1)
1981 Topps Rack case – 430801 (4th quarter, 3rd month, 8th day, 1980, shift 1)
1987 Topps Wax case – 421763 (4th quarter, 2nd month, 17th day, 1986, shift 3)
Think about one more example. A 1981 Football rack case that I found on eBay has the code 413011. The first number “4” makes total sense because the fourth quarter is football season and so the case being produced in October of 1981 would make sense.
Of course, if I find an exception to all of this, I'm screwed. haha
Andy
The above is correct. The cases were stamped not at the moment of production but more on the loading dock type of situation - probably stamped as an order was filled and they were ready to be sent out to various dealer networks.
As Andy mentioned, the first number is the quarter, second number the month, third and fourth number the day, 5th digit is year and 6th digit was the shift # at Duryea that day. They were running three shifts back in the 80s and early 90s.
I am amazed at the purchase order for 15,000,000 Wacky Packages cards. That is real proof of production numbers. We need to find more of those.
Where are all the ex Topps employees? I would think there would be some old employees with inside info to share.