Interesting article on attendance at sporting events
Boopotts
Posts: 6,784 ✭✭
in Sports Talk
I don't know if anyone else saw this, but I found it surprising:
MLS passes the NBA
My gut feeling is that in 30 years soccer will be the dominant spectator sport in the US, so it will be interesting to see if these attendance trends continue.
MLS passes the NBA
My gut feeling is that in 30 years soccer will be the dominant spectator sport in the US, so it will be interesting to see if these attendance trends continue.
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<< <i>
My gut feeling is that in 30 years soccer will be the dominant spectator sport in the US, so it will be interesting to see if these attendance trends continue. >>
Boo, haven't people been saying that since the 70's?
I think the end of the article hit it right when it said that the figures may be a bit misleading. How many games long is the season, and how many teams are there?
Because there are fewer games, are they the 'same' 17,000 people attending each game?
If they are only located in a few markets, then they don't have any 'small' market teams pulling down the average attendance.
Then the stadium size. Some NBA teams sell out and could sell more if they had bigger arenas.
I no longer like the NBA.
<< <i>
<< <i>
My gut feeling is that in 30 years soccer will be the dominant spectator sport in the US, so it will be interesting to see if these attendance trends continue. >>
Boo, haven't people been saying that since the 70's?
I think the end of the article hit it right when it said that the figures may be a bit misleading. How many games long is the season, and how many teams are there?
Because there are fewer games, are they the 'same' 17,000 people attending each game?
If they are only located in a few markets, then they don't have any 'small' market teams pulling down the average attendance.
Then the stadium size. Some NBA teams sell out and could sell more if they had bigger arenas.
I no longer like the NBA. >>
All legitimate points. The key here (to my eye) really isn't the idea that MLS is better-attended than the NBA (or NHL), since these numbers can be interpreted in different ways. The important thing to notice, by my reckoning, is simply how well-attended these games are becoming. The fact that we're even comparing MLS attendance data to that of the NBA is what's intriguing; how those numbers really compare to each other is secondary.
Soccer has a lot of built in advantages that other leagues simply haven't developed or exploited. The fact that multiple competitions run throughout the season (the domestic cup competition, the league competition, the Champion's League competition) is a big one, as are the lack of aggravating breaks in the game so that advertisers can pimp Viagra and Bud Light. But the real test to the NBA, NHL, and even MLB/NFL is going to come when the MLS reaches a critical level of popularity that forces Europe to take notice, and talks to integrate N.American soccer with European competitions are initiated. This is still a ways off, but when you consider how rich, and how utterly sports-crazy, the U.S. has become you can be sure that at some point these talks will take place.
There is simply too much money to be made in the U.S. for the European giants to ignore this market forever. Once MLS teams get even close to reaching the competitive level of the European teams we're going to see more competitions that merge these markets, and that's when the ball will really start to roll. Nobody may care about the Galaxy vs. FC Dallas, but will people watch the MLS champs in a home-and-home tie against Real Madrid? I think they will. Or, perhaps more importantly, the contemporary N.American sports fan may have no interest in that, but I think his kids will. Nothing stirs the average sports fan like national pride. If MLS finds a way to leverage that-- and they will, eventually-- they will have a built-in competitive advantage that other leagues won't be able to match.
You're right in that we've been hearing about the rise of soccer since the '70's. But it's fallacious to assume that because it hasn't happened yet that it won't happen at all. If there's one thing we know for certain it's that the sports landscape never remains static for long. Fifty years ago not one man in five hundred would have assumed that the NFL would have completely marginalized boxing and horse racing, or that MLB ratings would languish. The world changes- slowly, but inevitably- and it will be interesting to see what role soccer has to play in those changes going forward.
Just messin with you Boo, I have actually been looking into taking the family to an MLS game in Columbus and have been surprised at how much tix are and how popular the team is.
<< <i>And just so I have my facts straight, the league that wins the MLS All-Star games gets home field advantage in the MLS World Series, correct?
Just messin with you Boo, I have actually been looking into taking the family to an MLS game in Columbus and have been surprised at how much tix are and how popular the team is. >>
Man, I found the same thing this summer in Portland when I took the family to a Timbers game. I ended up paying something like $200 for four tickets. Sure, the game was a good time, but I still couldn't help but think about the kind of seats I could get at the CoPa for that kind of coin.
A more accurate comparison would be to compare average attendance versus stadium capacity. NHL and NBA games are played in arenas where the average capacity is around 17,000. Obviously capacity could not be increased even if there was more demand. Soccer games are almost always played to at most 1/3 capacity crowds with sections upon sections of empty seats.
NBA game ticket prices are much higher and game tickets are not discounted. Soccer tickets are always discounted and at most games you can find "but 1, get 2 free" promotions. Promotions like that inflate attendance counts.
In this country soccer has carried the stigma of being the sport of choice for kiddie league sports. Most kids growing up in the U.S. have played in some form of organized soccer league. Soccer has the reputation of being the most forgiving sport for kids lacking atheletic talent and has the biggest pushover mentality of any little league sport. A kid with no skill? Stick him at fullback. A tie game? Everybody wins! It's easier to blend in with the crowd playing soccer whereas that couldn't happen with baseball or basketball.
They have been saying soccer would be popular in the U.S. for decades although that hasn't materialized. They've tried cramming soccer down the throats of Americans for years now to no avail. Unless the culture of soccer changes (game rules change, and for God's sake no more flopping and no more offsides penalties!) and despite what the media wants us to believe, soccer will never enjoy the popularity that it has in the rest of the world and will always be a distant afterthought in the world of pro sports in America.
It doesn't surprise me soccer is more popular in the Pacific Northwest. Similar to where I live, Seattle has large educated, yuppie, Euro-wannabe population so if soccer is popular in Europe then they'll jump on the Euro bandwagon and watch soccer and use the metric system while listening to Depeche-Mode. Who else are they going to cheer for? They lost their NBA team to Oklahoma City (of all places) and both the Mariners and Seahawks collectively suck. They're stuck with soccer by default.
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<< <i>what are the stats on the nhl though? It seems that in the major cities the nhl sells out and go hand n hand with the nba. >>
It does seem as though the NHL's popularity is slowly ascending, though it's always hard to know for sure. I'm sure somebody's developed a metric for this (combining attendance, TV ratings, ancillary revenues, etc. into a single variable), but I don't know what it would look like or what it would tell us.
Speaking of when I was a kid (born 1958), as has been mentioned above, ever since I was about 10 years old I remember people saying that "in the next 20 - 25 years" soccer is going to be the #1 sport in the USA. Didn't happen then and I don't see it happeneing now, although, for the reason mentioned above, I do think it will grow in popularity.
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>Boo ... Although I think it is getting more popular in the US (did not read all the posts above, so sorry if it has been mentioned), could it be because of many of the Spanish speaking immigrants that came from a country where soccer is #1? I know that I have a few friends who have immigrated here from Central America and they and their friends play soccer as often as my friends and I played baseball when we were kids.
Speaking of when I was a kid (born 1958), as has been mentioned above, ever since I was about 10 years old I remember people saying that "in the next 20 - 25 years" soccer is going to be the #1 sport in the USA. Didn't happen then and I don't see it happeneing now, although, for the reason mentioned above, I do think it will grow in popularity. >>
I think that's part of it, though most of the Latino guys I know still root for the club teams they group with (UNAM, Cruz Azul, Monterrey, etc.) and don't care much about MLS. Actually, I don't know anyone who really cares about MLS, which is why I found that article surprising. While it would be silly to argue that MLS is more popular than the NBA, I do think the fact that they're putting 17k people in the seats, on average, is noteworthy.
<< <i> Actually, I don't know anyone who really cares about MLS, which is why I found that article surprising. >>
I subscribe to MLS Matchday Live which lets me watch all the games on my computer, despite not even having a favorite MLS team. I wish we had an MLS team still. The Mutiny and Fusion were casualties of a terribly flawed league.
MLS also landed a relatively big TV deal this year.
LINK
<< <i>
<< <i> Actually, I don't know anyone who really cares about MLS, which is why I found that article surprising. >>
I subscribe to MLS Matchday Live which lets me watch all the games on my computer, despite not even having a favorite MLS team. I wish we had an MLS team still. The Mutiny and Fusion were casualties of a terribly flawed league.
MLS also landed a relatively big TV deal this year.
LINK >>
I saw that article about the TV deal too. Very surprising, considering where MLS ratings were at recently as August of 2010.
I don't subscribe to MLS Matchday, but I do have a subscription to foxsoccer.tv. However, I have to say that I don't recommend it; it's expensive and the feeds are usually poor quality. I keep it simply for Liverpool games that aren't on FSN, but if it weren't for that I'd ditch it tomorrow.
I've never been to a soccer game, but the few times I looked into it, it was not affordable. Conversely, my son and I went to a Pistons game last year and for $27 we got two tickets, two "Made in Detroit" T-shirts, and a Rip Hamilton bobblehead. If that's not discounted, I don't know what is.
NHL, too even with overtime and shoot-outs.
17562 fans watch hockey in San Jose!
i think along the lines of illinifan912
hockey attendance 2010 NBA 2010
<< <i>Boo ... Although I think it is getting more popular in the US (did not read all the posts above, so sorry if it has been mentioned), could it be because of many of the Spanish speaking immigrants that came from a country where soccer is #1? I know that I have a few friends who have immigrated here from Central America and they and their friends play soccer as often as my friends and I played baseball when we were kids.
Speaking of when I was a kid (born 1958), as has been mentioned above, ever since I was about 10 years old I remember people saying that "in the next 20 - 25 years" soccer is going to be the #1 sport in the USA. Didn't happen then and I don't see it happeneing now, although, for the reason mentioned above, I do think it will grow in popularity. >>
try selling the idea to TV, that's why it never happened. when could you show commercials?
Unless soccer finds a way to an incorporate an easy point spread into gambling...football isn't a good analogy
In the landscape of time, the 70's isn't that long ago...so you are right that just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it won't.
I use to agree with the poster that said soccer is an easy place to hide a kid when they are no good at sports. But, I no longer agree with that, because after seeing what a talented youth soccer player looks like, it isn't possible to hide a poor soccer player in my eyes anymore. Poor is poor, and easy to see. A good soccer team would find a way to exploit that poor player if he were on the field.
I could hide a poor baseball player too. Bat him last to ensure he gets the least amount of plate appearances, instruct him to to take often because drawing a walk is his only chance of getting on, and put him in left field when the weak hitters are batting to ensure he never gets a ball hit his way. Heck, I could even throw him a bone and play him at 3B when the ace is on the mound, because the ACE was strike everyone out, and no righty will pull the ball.
<< <i><<NBA game ticket prices are much higher and game tickets are not discounted. Soccer tickets are always discounted and at most games you can find "but 1, get 2 free" promotions. Promotions like that inflate attendance counts.>>
I've never been to a soccer game, but the few times I looked into it, it was not affordable. Conversely, my son and I went to a Pistons game last year and for $27 we got two tickets, two "Made in Detroit" T-shirts, and a Rip Hamilton bobblehead. If that's not discounted, I don't know what is. >>
Those look like prices that WOULD HAVE BEEN charged for Cavs games this year....now that the Lebron effect is totally worn off and everyone who bought season tickets last year have now opted out.
1. We know we are not watching the best soccer players in the world. It's like watching AAA baseball.
2. There will probably never be "world class" American soccer player, like a Messi or Ronaldo.. If an athlete is that good at soccer, he's likely to be playing basketball or football before he can get to the world stage.
3. There is no meaningful way to gamble on it.
4. There is no meaningful way to have a fantasy season with it.
5. Simply put, there's just not enough "action" in it for U.S. fans.
I'm not bashing the sport....I love watching the World Cup, and have a mild interest in the Premier League, and Champions League...but generally speaking, the typical sports fan's plate is full with the 4 major sports.
Also, I'm not sure when a good time to have the season should be, but playing the playoffs during the NFL season is not a good way to draw attention to the sport.
<< <i>There are a few reasons why soccer, at least MLS soccer, will never become a mainstream sport in the U.S. (in some order):
1. We know we are not watching the best soccer players in the world. It's like watching AAA baseball.
2. There will probably never be "world class" American soccer player, like a Messi or Ronaldo.. If an athlete is that good at soccer, he's likely to be playing basketball or football before he can get to the world stage.
3. There is no meaningful way to gamble on it.
4. There is no meaningful way to have a fantasy season with it.
5. Simply put, there's just not enough "action" in it for U.S. fans.
I'm not bashing the sport....I love watching the World Cup, and have a mild interest in the Premier League, and Champions League...but generally speaking, the typical sports fan's plate is full with the 4 major sports.
Also, I'm not sure when a good time to have the season should be, but playing the playoffs during the NFL season is not a good way to draw attention to the sport. >>
I disagree with points 3 and 4. Over 2.5 million people play fantasy EPL through the premier league website alone, and I would be shocked if the total handle for soccer action worldwide didn't dwarf the NFL. If by 'meaningful' you mean 'point spreads', then yes- while you can find short spreads on soccer games it's a bit like run lines in MLB. Past that, you can bet 1x2s and what not on soccer. It's a sport- like any sport, really- that can generate plenty of gambling action. I do agree that they need to move to Sept-May schedule (with maybe a January break, like what the Bundesliga does) so that they can compete with European teams for top talent.
I have no idea if MLS will ever become a powerhouse league. However, one surprising fact is that world-class soccer players make roughly as much as guys like Peyton Manning, Kobe, and so on. If the league ever reaches a level where teams can comfortably pay their top talents eight figures a year then you will see an exodus of outstanding players who are still in their prime moving to MLS clubs. What happens after that would be anyone's guess, though I think that if MLS ever does become more than a fringe league it won't happen for at least another 10 years.
Here's an interesting question: Will a non-US based league (like the EPL) ever become wildy popular in the US? I can't see it happening, if only because of the time zone issue, but I guess it's something to consider.
<< <i>Soccer has the reputation of being the most forgiving sport for kids lacking atheletic talent and has the biggest pushover mentality of any little league sport. >>
This may be the reputation, but it's far from the truth. My kids play travel soccer, and other sports as well (basketball, baseball). For the most part, I would say the soccer kids are the better athletes.
<< <i>
<< <i>Soccer has the reputation of being the most forgiving sport for kids lacking atheletic talent and has the biggest pushover mentality of any little league sport. >>
This may be the reputation, but it's far from the truth. My kids play travel soccer, and other sports as well (basketball, baseball). For the most part, I would say the soccer kids are the better athletes. >>
I think that reputation was well deserved 20+ years ago, when kids as young as 6 were playing 11v11 on big fields. But these days (as you know) kids don't play 11 v 11 until they're 13, and by that time the kids with no athletic talent have been weeded out. Little kids (U9 and lower) play 6v6, and anyone who thinks you can 'hide' a player in ANY game where 6 or fewer players per team take the field just doesn't understand much about how sports work.
Calling this a foolish notion is being kind.
MLS is not triple A, more like double A.
<< <i>3. There is no meaningful way to gamble on it. >>
DPOTD-3
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<< <i>
<< <i>3. There is no meaningful way to gamble on it. >>
Yeah especially with companies like bwin and betclic sponsoring Real Madrid, Juventus, etc.
<< <i>I would watch soccer more if it were a bit less violent. Have you seen those hits? Guys are having to be carried off with what appears to be almost fatal injuries at least 2-3 times a game. I'll stick with a less violent sport like hockey. >>
it would be an argument if the "violence" were real. Too many times you see players involved in minimal contact and they're rolling around on the grass acting like they've been shot in the chest or something only to walk off the field non-chalantly 90 seconds later. Those theatrics remind me of a worse acted version of WWE wrestling.
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Soccer has the reputation of being the most forgiving sport for kids lacking atheletic talent and has the biggest pushover mentality of any little league sport. >>
This may be the reputation, but it's far from the truth. My kids play travel soccer, and other sports as well (basketball, baseball). For the most part, I would say the soccer kids are the better athletes. >>
I think that reputation was well deserved 20+ years ago, when kids as young as 6 were playing 11v11 on big fields. But these days (as you know) kids don't play 11 v 11 until they're 13, and by that time the kids with no athletic talent have been weeded out. Little kids (U9 and lower) play 6v6, and anyone who thinks you can 'hide' a player in ANY game where 6 or fewer players per team take the field just doesn't understand much about how sports work. >>
Last time I played in little league soccer was about 17 or so years ago and back then it was still 11 on 11. I agree if the play was 6 on 6 then it would be a lot harder to hide a bad player.
Right or wrong, the pushover reputation little league soccer has is still alive and well today and as long as it lingers around it will have an effect on the popularity and acceptability of soccer on America.
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Attendance wise, I believe Nascar draws more people than any of the Big 3 or 4.
Ron
I think the only way that the EPL could gain a somewhat mainstream following in the U.S. is if they had 20 U.S. cities (or maybe just 10 for the Top 10 EPL teams), each "adopt" an EPL league team, where said EPL team would play 1 or 2 games a year in that U.S. city. That way, fans can make a connection with an EPL team and follow it like it were one of their own.
The EPL teams would probably hate it (especially if they had to travel to Seattle), but if they truly want to grow the game in the U.S., I think they have to give it a shot. If the NFL can keep sending teams to England to play a game - a country where they don't even play American football, and really has NO SHOT of the game becoming popular, the EPL can probably send teams to the U.S. where at least soccer is on the radar.
I've been watching the EPL casually for 3-4 years, and have yet to be drawn to any team to call my "favorite". I thought since Henry bought Liverpool, I might get into them, but it hasn't really held my attention. If there was a team (and I guess it would be Liverpool) playing in Boston once or twice a year, I'd be much more apt to pay more attention.
<< <i>If you've ever played fantasy hockey, you know it is just not a sport that lends itself well to fantasy....and soccer is even worse. It will never catch on in the U.S.
I think the only way that the EPL could gain a somewhat mainstream following in the U.S. is if they had 20 U.S. cities (or maybe just 10 for the Top 10 EPL teams), each "adopt" an EPL league team, where said EPL team would play 1 or 2 games a year in that U.S. city. That way, fans can make a connection with an EPL team and follow it like it were one of their own.
The EPL teams would probably hate it (especially if they had to travel to Seattle), but if they truly want to grow the game in the U.S., I think they have to give it a shot. If the NFL can keep sending teams to England to play a game - a country where they don't even play American football, and really has NO SHOT of the game becoming popular, the EPL can probably send teams to the U.S. where at least soccer is on the radar.
I've been watching the EPL casually for 3-4 years, and have yet to be drawn to any team to call my "favorite". I thought since Henry bought Liverpool, I might get into them, but it hasn't really held my attention. If there was a team (and I guess it would be Liverpool) playing in Boston once or twice a year, I'd be much more apt to pay more attention. >>
Ha! I'm a Liverpool fan, and there's no way I could ask someone to get on board with this team this year. They've really been no fun to watch.
I don't think the EPL will ever fully catch on here if only because of the time zone issue. One of my friends comes over to my house to watch all the Liverpool games, but that frequently means we're in front of the TV, coffee mugs in hand, by 7:30 AM on a Saturday. It's very hard to see that kind of behavior spreading.
<< <i>BTW, Boo - if you are a Liverpool fan, why the Arsenal avatar? >>
That's a great question.
I have an affinity for The Gooners. I'm not a huge fan, and I think Wenger can be a little whiny, but I like them for the same reasons I like Lyon; because they are teams run by very smart people who look to make evidence-based decisions, and don't abide by the brutish anti-intellectualism that so frequently seems a characteristic of power-brokers at the highest level of sports. So, some time ago when I went to change my avatar, I found this one in the avatar bank (if that's what it's called) and decide to go with it. I searched for a Liverpool avatar, but that search was fruitless.
<< <i>BTW, Boo - if you are a Liverpool fan, why the Arsenal avatar? >>
My most frustrating day ever in sports was last December. I Flew from LA to London for the Man U vs. Chelsea match. It was snowed out and I barely got out of London in time to make it home for Christmas (Michigan). This event is still on my bucket list. I love "soccer'. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Only 12% say they "miss the NBA".
i do however think it would do better if they cut the field in half and made the goalie box a foot smaller..or bigger
looking for low grade t205's psa 1-2
<< <i>BTW, Boo - if you are a Liverpool fan, why the Arsenal avatar? >>
Shows what I know. I figured that must be the label of a highfallutin local brewery.
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph