2012 SF Giants Spring Training Discussion

digicat

Well, injuries hosed the 2011 season, so now it's time for a few months of watching the front office make moves and hopefully put a nice team on the field in 2012.

First up, free agents.

Giants first moves of the off-season happened today, with lefty relievers Javier Lopez and Jeremy Affeldt getting retained. Lopez signed a 2 year, $8.5 mil contract, while Affeldt's 1 year, $5 mil option was picked up.

The Giants bullpen has been awesome over the past few years, and it only cost the Giants an extra $2.375 mil (over what the two guys made last year) to keep two dependable lefty relievers.

57loaded

After Matt Cain (hopefully for at least 4 years with an option.

just don't go stoooopid signing Fielder, Beltran or Reyes to loooooooong term contracts. maybe, if they are not inhaled by the NYY and digested, Sabean might be able to sign one of them to a shorter term with an option. (please wake me up from my fantasy)...lol

also do the Giants need an insurance catcher if, if, if.............

WTCG

I was under the impression they were going to decline Affeldt's option and try to renegotiate a new deal with him. Guess picking up the option settles that issue.

Getting Lopez for another two years is great and they got him for a bit cheaper than many estimates. Javy is one the best lefty specialists in the game today.

As for Pujols and Prince Fielder, I can't see those guys coming over. I strongly believe Pujols will stay in St. Louis. Don't know about Fielder's chances in Milwaukee though. I may be in the minority but I definitely want to see Beltran retained.

Giants really need a dependable leadoff guy. Coco Crisp could be a decent fit. Rollins isn't worth as much as he thinks he is but if he's willing to be reasonable it could work. As for catcher, could Hector Sanchez fufill the role of backup to Posey and if not would you rather see Chris Stewart or Whiteside? Sanchez notwithstanding, I prefer Stewart.

57loaded

i kinda like your cereal idea and forgot about Stewart..thanks

Eli's comin'
Eli's comin' (Eli's a-comin')
Well you better hide your heart, your loving heart
Eli's a-comin' and the cards say... a broken heart

that's how i feel about Whiteside

digicat

I'm a fan of "Chris Stewart, SF Giants BACKUP catcher." Eli was a good backup for several years, but Stewart's got far better tools behind the plate.

I don't really know what the deal was with rushing Hector Sanchez to the majors like that. I thought they were showcasing him or something.

As for Affeldt's option, declining the $5 mil option wouldn't have been a good move. Looking through all the FA lefty relievers, Affeldt's the best of the bunch. Darren Oliver posted some better numbers, but the dude's 41 years old. Affeldt would have commanded MORE than $5 mil, both because he's a top tier lefty reliever, he's got a great set of intangibles that come with him (a great clubhouse presence, natural team/public ambassador, AND he's a stand up guy off the field with his charity work).

Crisp, not sure about him. He had a .314 OBP last season, which is just .002 more than Andres Torres. But, he DID steal 47 bases. That'd put a body in CF and a guy in the leadoff spot.

Beltran's history of injuries bother me. The only position he'll play is RF, and I HATE not having Nate's glove and arm there.

SanctionII

A 2012 season discussion thread already?

MLB should adopt a new rule that requires everyone connected to baseball (including fans) to take at least a week off after the final game in the World Series

Maybe the rule should even require that once the World Series is over everyone must take the balance of October and all of November off.

But then again, the word "fan" is simply the root of the word "fanatic", so for die hards like digicat his "24/7 every day of the year" interest in the Gigantes is understandable

digicat

<< <i>MLB should adopt a new rule that requires everyone connected to baseball (including fans) to take at least a week off after the final game in the World Series >>



Well, for ME, the season ended in September, so I've taken a whole MONTH off before starting this thread.

57loaded

one year ago today!

digicat

<< <i>one year ago today! >>



NEVER FORGET!

WTCG

<< <i>one year ago today! >>



One year ago today was great but now it's time to move on. The question now is: will 11/1/2010 be the first memorable dates in many more to come or will it stand out by itself 40 years from now?

digicat

<< <i>The question now is: will 11/1/2010 be the first memorable dates in many more to come or will it stand out by itself 40 years from now? >>



If I find a time machine, I'll go find out for you.

57loaded

we celebrated last night by watching game 5 (with Giants radio announcers dubbed over of course) Dave Flemming's call of Renetria's HR is priceless.

WTCG, it still give me goose bumps!

digicat

If you ever wondered what Kuip's call would have sounded like, listen to the first few moments of his call on the Posey fly-out the inning before.


Jon Miller was calling the game for ESPN Radio, but I've never heard any clips of his Renteria HR call, or his victory call. I'd love to find those.

57loaded

here is the best I could find...voice is fine but no video unless Sesame Street still does it for you. (Renteria)

youtube link

and final out

Kuiper

digicat

I've heard both of those.

Jon Miller wasn't doing the KNBR play-by-play because he was busy doing the ESPN radio play-by-play. THAT'S the one that I'm looking for and can't find.

So, anyone who turned on their radio and listened to the game but didn't live around Texas or Nor Cal would have gotten to hear Jon Miller and whoever else (Joe Morgan?) he was calling the game with.

57loaded

sry read your post incorrectly.

WTCG

My favorite 2010 World Series video.

digicat

Boch took Panda, Torres, and Ramirez with him to be part of the USA All Star team that's playing in Taiwan right now.

I wonder if Torres' involvement is a sign that the Giants want to hang on to him?

I'm curious about Panda being there. They said that he needed surgery so he could hit from the right side again. It seems like the best time to do that surgery is immediately following the season. On the other hand, maybe Boch want's to personally oversee Panda's post-surgery rehab, and didn't want to let him out of his sight in case he lets himself go again.

WTCG

<< <i>Boch took Panda, Torres, and Ramirez with him to be part of the USA All Star team that's playing in Taiwan right now.

I wonder if Torres' involvement is a sign that the Giants want to hang on to him?

I'm curious about Panda being there. They said that he needed surgery so he could hit from the right side again. It seems like the best time to do that surgery is immediately following the season. On the other hand, maybe Boch want's to personally oversee Panda's post-surgery rehab, and didn't want to let him out of his sight in case he lets himself go again. >>



Keeping Torres around would be typical Sabean. He doesn't believe anything is wrong with the offense and thinks Posey and Freddy Sanchez coming back would solve everything. He also thinks Torres's 2010 season is the norm and all those years in the minors and his 2011 season were abnormalities. Even with Sanchez and Posey in the lineup earlier last season it wasn't like the Giants were an offense machine.

Good pitching is important but teams can't win games if they don't score runs. I'm sure Lincecum would strongly agree.

If the offense does not improve this offseason you can say goodbye to Cain, Beltran and in two years Timmy. The Giants would resemble the 2011 Padres more than the 2010 Giants.

digicat

<< <i>If the offense does not improve this offseason you can say goodbye to Cain, Beltran and in two years Timmy. >>



Cain's still under contract, so he won't be able to go anywhere until 2013, unless the trade him.

I think the spots the Giants are going to tap the free agent market to fill are LF, CF, and SS. They'll probably try to get Beltran to commit to playing LF, then add someone like Crisp or DeJesus to play CF, then get someone like Furcal to play SS. However, in the off-chance that they go nuts and land Prince Fielder, then I see them sticking with Crawford as SS.


Who would you sign?

WTCG

<< <i>

<< <i>If the offense does not improve this offseason you can say goodbye to Cain, Beltran and in two years Timmy. >>



Cain's still under contract, so he won't be able to go anywhere until 2013, unless the trade him.

I think the spots the Giants are going to tap the free agent market to fill are LF, CF, and SS. They'll probably try to get Beltran to commit to playing LF, then add someone like Crisp or DeJesus to play CF, then get someone like Furcal to play SS. However, in the off-chance that they go nuts and land Prince Fielder, then I see them sticking with Crawford as SS.


Who would you sign? >>



Isn't Cain eligible for free agency at the end of next season?

For LF I read a rumor they were going to convince Beltran to play LF and if he is willing to move they'd offer him more money and an extra year or two. I always thought Beltran would only play at RF.

I like the idea of Coco Crisp at CF unless Nate can play CF. How about Mike Cuddyer? He's been mentioned as an acquisition more than anybody else. He's a bit of an utility guy who can play OF, 2nd and 3rd.

As for SS, Giants will not sign Jose Reyes, end of story. If they could get Jimmy Rollins then that would be a good fit. If that happens then Crawford will be traded. If they don't get Rollins then it's possible Crawford could be the guy. He's a good fielder but he can't hit. They could also keep Keppinger and move him to SS.

Giants are overstocked at 1st and are too cheap to go after Pujols or Fielder. It shouldn't happen but my gut is Huff will be the opening day guy at 1st.

digicat

<< <i>He also thinks Torres's 2010 season is the norm and all those years in the minors and his 2011 season were abnormalities. >>



Torres' minor league career numbers actually look a lot like his 2010 MLB numbers. 2011 looks like the fluke year. Since he started to treat his ADHD around 2007, his numbers got a lot better. The fact that he's been able to make a living as a pro baseball player without the ability to focus on the game or on the situation at hand tells me that Torres is an immensely talented individual. His problem with the ADHD meds this past season were well documented. They kept Torres awake at night, and instead of sleeping and getting rest, he was hitting the batting cages in the middle of the night and working himself into exhaustion just so he could sleep for a few hours. Of course, the fact that Torres had a camera crew following him around for the documentary someone was making about people living with ADHD may have screwed with his routine as well.

digicat

<< <i>Isn't Cain eligible for free agency at the end of next season? >>



Yeah. I was talking about season. He'll be a Giant at least through the 2012 season.

digicat

11/7: Jonathan Sanchez dealt for Melky Cabrera! WTF?

Cabrera had a flukey year last year but is usually sub-Cody Ross in production. The Giants also dealt Ryan Verdugo, who's a minor league lefty strike-out guy with similar control issues.


The Royals are LOL'ing.

WTCG

As any Giants follower knows, Jonathan Sanchez is a bit of an enigma. When he's good he's awesome. When he's distracted he's the wild thing without pitch or emotional control. With Zito under contract it wasn't a fair competition for the 5th starter position.

The good news about Melky Cabrera: He's only 27 (10 years younger than the typical Sabean pickup), He's only due about 1.25 mil this year and he hit .305 with 18 HR's last year. Sanchez is scheduled to get $5-$6 mil next year.

The bad news: can he really play CF? That notwithstanding his stats show 2011 was a career year. In 2010 he it .255 with 4 HR's.

Frankly I'm underwhelmed with this transaction although things could've been worse. They could've went after J.D. Drew. This is typical Sabean: he signs players after one career year without regard to their multiple previous years of mediocre play.

Cabrera is cheaper than the other guys mentioned and if that clears up some money to sign some high value talent then it might all work out.

PowderedH2O

I think the Giants got fleeced in this deal. Sanchez isn't consistent, but he is occasionally great and has a HUGE upside. Cabrera? Well.... he's been around awhile, and until 2011 had never hit over .280 or more than 13 homers in a season. Guys that hit like that are not that hard to come by. Pitchers with the kind of stuff that Sanchez has are VERY hard to find. I hope it works out for both teams, but somehow I don't think so.

CollectorAtWork

I was underwhelmed by this trade also until I saw that Cabrera actually had 200 hits last year. That's pretty impressive. He may be a one year wonder or this could be the beginnings of something great. The trade definitely has risk to both sides.

57loaded

i'm okay with it. just okay like any trade we'll see.
Sabean has made a few good moves and more than a few bad ones.

i alos think Torres is about as good as he will ever get (last year)

digicat

A couple of videos of Melky with the Braves a few years ago:

High-fiving an umpire.

Melky's solid "D."

lanemyer85

unless Sanchez suddenly robs Cliff Lee of his command at gunpoint, I wouldn't worry too much either way. In reality you have two guys who will likely bring nothing more to their respective clubs than a Type B compensation draft pick a year from now. Giants fans will have The New Adventures of Randy Winn played by Melky Cabrera, and the Royal fans will get to see the level of frustration that fans of teams who have employed Aj Burnett or Rich Harden have endured with Sanchez. Cabrera is the classic tweener....save for this past season, he hasn't had the bat to play LF where he belongs, and he's not good enough defensively to play even average CF. In other words, he's Randy Winn or David DeJesus.

Cabrera

2011 - .305/.339/.470 - .332 BABIP (batting average on balls put into play)
Career - .275/.331/.398 - .299 BABIP

so Cabrera's career year is supported by an (in all likelihood) unsustainable BABIP. That and he's moving from a hitter's park into an extreme pitchers yard so Giants fans will spend the next year discussing Melky Cabrera version 2012 vs. Andres Torres version 2010. I like Torres' chances in that match-up.

digicat

<< <i>That and he's moving from a hitter's park into an extreme pitchers yard >>



I don't know how "extreme" of a pitcher's park AT&T Park is. The park played neutral-to-hitter-friendly for 2004-2009. The only thing different about AT&T Park between then and 2011 is the guys who play there.

jdip9

I think we all know what Melky Cabrera is at this point...Sanchez on the other hand seems like someone that could break out one of these years. Maybe command is something that can't be taught or learned, but I just think there is way more upside with Sanchez. In fact, like Lane alludes to, there really is no upside with Cabrera. We probably saw the best he'll ever play last year.

lanemyer85

<< <i>

<< <i>That and he's moving from a hitter's park into an extreme pitchers yard >>



I don't know how "extreme" of a pitcher's park AT&T Park is. The park played neutral-to-hitter-friendly for 2004-2009. The only thing different about AT&T Park between then and 2011 is the guys who play there. >>



well there's several factors to which one can rank a park. If judging by total runs it will fluctuate year by year depending on one's team offense and pitching staff. What doesn't fluctuate all that much is what I'm referring to in home run/power suppression by a given team at home vs on the road where it has been in the bottom of the rankings pretty consistently.

2011 - 30th - .596 HRs
2010 - 20th - .885 HRs
2009 - 20th - .970 HRs
2008 - 25th - .850 HRs
2007 - 24th - .808 HRs
2006 - 29th - .681 HRs
2005 - 18th - .911 HRs
2004 - 21st - .899 HRs

only Petco, Safeco, and RFK had more consistent suppression of power over that span. Post Barroid, only 169 HRs hit to RF since 2007.

Goot

Off topic, but I just found out my sister, brother-in-law, and nephew are moving out to San Francisco next spring. My brother-in-law is doing research at UC-San Francisco. Looks like I'll get to take in a game at AT&T park soon!

digicat

<< <i>Looks like I'll get to take in a game at AT&T park soon! >>



It's a beautiful park. Sit over on the 3rd base side of the stadium and you'll have a marvelous view of the Bay.

Oh, and eat a ChaCha Bowl. Healthiest thing in the park, and darn tasty too!

digicat

Since this is a sports card forum, and he signed a 2 year deal, I'll show off my new Javier Lopez rookie card.

2003 UD Ultimate Collection Gold #/25

digicat

Boch said on the radio this morning: "I'm not gonna hide from it: Barry Zito is our 5th starter next year."

So, if the Giants continue their usual thing of alternating their lefties and righties, the rotation should look something like:

Lincecum
Bumgarner
Cain
Zito
Vogelsong

If Zito sux MORE, or Vogelsong turns back into a pumpkin, I'm sure we'll see Surkamp get called up at some point.

57loaded

<< <i>Off topic, but I just found out my sister, brother-in-law, and nephew are moving out to San Francisco next spring. My brother-in-law is doing research at UC-San Francisco. Looks like I'll get to take in a game at AT&T park soon! >>



dress warm unless a day-game AND you are in the sun.

the upper deck is very steep.

if you can get club seats that's a good place to be and lots of grub stations

and also a for 3rd base side, too

WTCG

<< <i>Off topic, but I just found out my sister, brother-in-law, and nephew are moving out to San Francisco next spring. My brother-in-law is doing research at UC-San Francisco. Looks like I'll get to take in a game at AT&T park soon! >>



You'll have the privilege of watching a game at one of the most beautiful baseball ballparks anywhere in the world accompanied by enthusiastic, diverse, yet classy fans and some of the best food found at any ballpark but be warned that tickets are harder and more expensive to come by than those of most other teams. Oh yeah, with very few exceptions during the season bring a jacket or blanket with you even for day games. You'll need it.

digicat

I remember some visiting Brewers players saying that they hated coming to SF, and called it the "Green Bay of the West" due to how cold it got on the field at night.

WTCG

Reported today because of the Cabrera deal that the Giants are supposedly out of resigning Beltran. As feared and expected, management feels the return of Sanchez and Posey will solve everything. Both are still unproven after career threatening injuries and there is no guarantee either will produce like they have in previous seasons. If you thought the 2011 offense was bad you haven't seen anything yet.

Good pitching is important but games can't be won without runs scored.

digicat

Pat Burrell said today that he doesn't think he can play anymore, and that his career is over.

He was a good Giant. I'll always remember THIS.

digicat

<< <i>Reported today because of the Cabrera deal that the Giants are supposedly out of resigning Beltran. >>



Depends on who you listen to. Unless they were going to non-tender J. Sanchez, Melky's going to be a bit cheaper than Sanchez would be after arb in 2012.

I still expect the Giants to make a go at Beltran.

WTCG

<< <i>

<< <i>Reported today because of the Cabrera deal that the Giants are supposedly out of resigning Beltran. >>



Depends on who you listen to. Unless they were going to non-tender J. Sanchez, Melky's going to be a bit cheaper than Sanchez would be after arb in 2012.

I still expect the Giants to make a go at Beltran. >>



That's exactly what I was thinking. I believe Melky is due only about 1.5 mil or so next year.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Giants go cheap this year thinking they want to save some money to have a chance at resigning Cain and Lincecum. Unless the offense improves next year I can't imagine either of them would want to stay.

digicat

Brandon Crawford and Joe Panik are both having nice time in the AZ Fall League:

Crawford: .320/.346/.480
Panik: .316/.386/.430

Gary Brown got sick and had to be sent home, but his numbers weren't impressive. I'm not sure if those numbers were held down by the fact that he was sick or not. Sounded kinda like he had mono or something.


On a different note, they have a plaque at AT&T Park commemorating Jonathan Sanchez's no-hitter. That, pretty much, will give Sanchez a permanent presence at AT&T Park. I'm ok with that. Dude talked ballsy smack in 2010, got his butt kicked, then showed up on the last day of the season to drown the Padres and send the Giants into the post-season.

Plus, he did this as the Giants bid the 2010 Dodgers a fond farewell at AT&T Park...

digicat

This dude probably won't be a Giant in 2012, but I finally tracked down his toughest rookie card:

Whitey!
2003 Topps Chrome Traded X-Fractor (uncirculated) #03/25

digicat

So, Baer says the Giants have extended contract extensions to Lincecum and Cain. No details have been released, but the estimates are that both contracts are for 4 years, and the guys are looking at huge paydays in upwards of $20/mil per year. I guess the "will they stay or will they go" question will be answered sooner than later.

digicat

Giants made a few roster moves to protect a few guys from the rule 5 draft next month. Some of it was surprising....

The Giants had 36 guys on the 40 man roster at the start of the day, but instead of cutting ties with Eli Whiteside and someone else (like Fontenot or Keppinger), the Giants scrapped a pair of youngsters:

Darren Ford OF - DFA
Waldis Joaquin RHP - DFA

Joaquin's not a surprise, but Ford is. Ford will forever live on in Giants lore for this game. Joaquin was a scrub reliever who will only be remembered for having a weird name.

Joining the 40 man roster are a rag-tag group of 6 guys:

Charlie Culberson, 2b = 22 year old with decent glove, but strikes out a lot, walks very little, and shows a little power. Never played above AA ball.


Angel Villalona, 1b = 21 years old. recently cleared of murder charges in his native country. Hasn't played organized baseball since 2009, where he was an undisciplined and impatient power hitter, but according to Giants scouts, he "still has his swing".


Roger Kieschnick, OF = 24 year old slugger who's battled back injuries. Lots of power potential, but lots of strikeouts with few walks.


Dan Otero, RHP = 26 year old reliever with a decent stats over 6 years in the minors (1.90 ERA, 1.069 whip, and 6.30 so/bb).


Hector Correa, RHP = 23 year old reliever with average numbers, but is called "a potential impact relief arm" by Giants beat reporter Andy Baggarly.


Tyler Graham, CF = 27 year old outfielder with lots of speed (60 steals in AAA), but zero power.

57loaded

<< <i>Joaquin's not a surprise, but Ford is. Ford will forever live on in Giants lore for this game. >>



in that game was Ford inserted as PR and stole second as well? or did he bat, get on and steal second?

i'll miss him.

any thoughts to replacing their hitting coach (again)?
i don't like saying this but i believe Rags is only as good as the pitching staff

digicat

<< <i>in that game was Ford inserted as PR and stole second as well? or did he bat, get on and steal second? >>



Ford never touched the bat in 2010.

In that game, Fontenot led the bottom of the 8th off with a walk, and Ford pinch-ran.
Lincecum sac-bunted him over to 2nd, then scored on a combination of Ubaldo's wild pitch and Olivo's wild throw.




<< <i>any thoughts to replacing their hitting coach (again)? >>


I think Hensley's going to get another year. He was brought up with the sole purpose of grooming the young kids into major league hitters, which is what he was doing in the minors before getting promoted. It worked with Posey so far. I don't care who the coach is, once veterans get set in their ways, they're going to do whatever they want.




<< <i>i don't like saying this but i believe Rags is only as good as the pitching staff >>


It's too hard to measure that. The Giants, as an organization, is good at drafting and developing pitchers. The pitchers Rags gets to work with are guys who are very talented to begin with. The old guys who come through the system, with the exception of Ryan Vogelsong, are usually in a "what you see is what you get" place in their career where no amount of coaching will change who they are.

digicat

Finally got my Hector Sanchez card. He didn't get his first MLB card this year, so until then, I'll go with his first minor league card...

2010 Augusta GreenJackets



I kinda like these minor league cards, I'll see if I can get some more...