My week and a half of utter frustration trying to grade my NewP Vermont ryder 10
ambro51
Posts: 13,817 ✭✭✭✭✭
After at least 40 hours or more with everything from my reading glasses to my 10x hastings triplet...I am still unable to decipher exactly what my newp vermont ryder 10 is telling me. Its not that I dont SEE what is there...its that I cannot accept what I am seeing. I cant force myself to accept what, even using the strictest ANA standards...I am seeing on that coin.
The reverse is holding my eye, and twisting my brain into contortions. Ive studied these things...now, its not a huge survivor population at all....once estimated about 60, its now double that...but not many more, for sure. With a coin like this...all the nice ones are accounted for, or so it would seem. PCGS coinfacts give the top coin as an xf45, with two xf40 and then an vf30 and a few f 15 pieces. PMs on this board have alerted me to a dark uncirculated piece, whth some mint red...in an impounded collection in vermont. searches reveal one piece graded au in an ngc collection ( but uncertified).
Looking through Breens encyclopedia, it mentions grade by surface. also, he notes 'prohibitively rare above F'. Tony Carlotto uses the 1914 ANS exhibition coin, the ex ryder specimen...to illustrate his book. thats a vf piece.
SO>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Along comes this coin on ebay, I set my action sniper high..and walk away. Now I own it. Ive spent hours and hours....seriously, hours and hours....looking at this. I feel in my own heart that I am a fairly astutue observer and an I am confident (or have been confident) in my ability to grade and understand my own coins. I have tried to glean as much information on the technique of "grading by surface" from these boards and orher sources. Using the original sheldon descriptions of grades, and going by QDBs instructions on grading colonials (look and see what is offered and in collections and try to develop an eye for seeing the grade)......I am coming up with things my eyes are showing my brain, and the brain is saying...
WAIT THIS CANNOT BE TRUE<<<
OK, here is what I see. Im not posting pictures now. This is what I see.
1. Luster. I uderstand Luster is the paramount indicator of Mint State. I see this on all surfaces of the coin, the luster exists on the fields and the devices. It does not appear to be 'broken' on the high points of the coin, ie, no polishing or cleaning.
2. Strike. This piece is better struck than any known. there are full details on the center of the rear figure, which I have seen hints of on only one other coin, the highest grade ryder 15, an unquestioned rarity of which only a few were struck with the damaged reverse die. From that fresh die, at least one surviving coin shows central details. With this Britannia style of liberty, she holds a staff, which covers most of the coins length. This is vivid, well struck and at the right reflection looks like a brilliant crisp line. You can see her fingers holding the staff, and the finial at the base.
3. Color. the overlall shade is one of chocolate brown, with olive brown fields, and when held at certain angles, there is moderate deep reddisn brown in the recessed areas. the scattered minor planchet laminations reveal a floor of deep salmon pink. Into the planchet fissures, this salmon pink mixes with old verdigris.
4. Verdigris. It is there, a few patches on the obverse, and there are spots of this visible on the outer rims and here and there on the coin.
5. the rims....these are amazing. this coin was struck with an open collar, that is, the metal flowed free from the pressure of the dies and was unrestricted. I have studied the rims for hours, and detect a wire edge in places, and an even razor sharp edge both obverse and reverse, with no nicks, rounding, dents visible.
6. details on the high points. the shield on this coin is a high point, with the elusive wheat sheaf atop that. the leg on the left, that is a high point also. very high, when felt through the cellophane of the old 2X2 this coin has been in (the listing of the coin in the 1996 redbook, the page number, is written on the 2x2). the high points show no break in the luster, and no nick, dents marks or scratches at all.
7. the Letters. Stamped in after the die was made, these show hard shouldered strength with crisp edges and a smooth surface on the top of the letter.
8. flow lines. There are radial flow lines all over the fields of the reverse, broken by the devices, letters, and extending to the exact edge of the rims, which are smooth faced.
9. crispness near the rims. The planchet, being 26.8 mm in diameter yet weighing 116.5 grains is fairly thick. It does not fill the entire area that the dies can strike. Analysis by carlotto estimates that the orignal die diameter was 31.5 mm!
when the letters, and the date especially come to the rim, they stop abruptly, with no rounding or flow into the edge of the coin. as the dentils leave the space of the planchet, they flow off the coin, leaving the last one a mere pinhead of a point, sitting on the edge.
10. Planchet fissures...Yes, they are there. The indigenous Vermonts have the worst metal of any colonial coin series, not a point in dispute. BUT, they are an aid here in that one highly complex fissure has very delicate shelving right to the rim of the coin, and this is not disturbed in any way.
11. CIRCULATION WEAR...I cannot find it. Just...cannot find it. I have located ONE tic mark, a miniscule nick that is located toward the base of the staff that the reverse figure holds. I cannot see any other evidence of scratches, tic marks, dents, abrasions....nothing like this anywhere on the coin.
This all is very hard for me to accept. Simply because when I add it all up, I keep getting MS66RB.
Yes that is scary, isnt it? the highest graded VT is a Ryder 6 landscape at MS62, currently residing in the bowels of the Gopher State Hoard (collection). Lookhg at the large images on Heritage of this coin show a piece that is MS62 ...uhh...or is it? the revese shows a whole series of deep scratches, with dozens of smaller contact marks visible. Id look at that oin in hand, and not puzzle at all over a grade.
this one I have now...thats a puzzle.
OH, you say,,,just send it out for grading. Uh Huh...but I dont trust PCGS, NGC or ANACS. I dont know why...but deep down I distrust them and feel the thing would come back in a Fine details holder. No faith. Im sorry, but No faith in them seeing what I see. Perhaps this will change when I actually DO submit it, maybe they will see exactly what I see..but till then, I want experts to see this and give me input.
Ive shown it to a few on this board via PM and discussed it. New england rarities ...."A MONSTER
CRO had a great analysis of the coin,
.....................Well, here's what I see:
It is very sharp - as sharp as any I have seen of this variety.
It has areas of extremely choice, hard and seemingly lustrous surfaces.
It has odd color.
It is very obtrusively and not so attractively flawed.
It has some very profound and nasty verdigris.
Typically with these, collectors make trade-offs since it's hard to find a piece that offers everything.
For someone seeking sharpness, this is an excellent specimen.
The most sought after and expensive Vermonts tend to be those would choice color and unflawed planchets, so the major collectors in this series would prefer one with more wear, but better color and planchet and no environmental issues.
Best,
JA
..............I sent a photo file to QDB who has a deep love of the Vermont series (and owns that au53 babyhead),,
Dear Ray,
Thank you for the images. This is by no means the finest known, but it certainly is a nice example. If you are not a member you might want to join the Colonial Coin Collectors Club, a very nice group founded in 1993. Information is on the Internet. Also, if you do not have my Whitman Encyclopedia of Colonial and Early American Coins you might want to borrow a copy or else buy one on the Internet from whitmanbooks.com. You can also order if from our Wolfeboro office. The list price is $49.95. If you are interested, please feel free to contact Melissa Karstedt at our Wolfeboro office at 800-811-1804.
I do indeed find the Vermont coppers to be fascinating. They are historical, rustic, and charming in their own way.
All good wishes for you.
Sincerely,
Dave Bowers
................................but the difficulty I have in my mind accepting what I am seeing is twisting me into a numismatic pretzel. IS IT MS? Is it one of the very very few numismatically saved Vermont Colonials?
And these thoughts bang around inside my head for hours on end..then I look at the coin again for awhile...and stil l keep seeing MS66 sharpness. The verdigris...well, how will you look in 225 years? thats a thing to deal with, or not to deal with. Havent decided yet...but despite what father time has thrown at this coin...I dont think it has seen any post mint circulation. You decide.
The reverse is holding my eye, and twisting my brain into contortions. Ive studied these things...now, its not a huge survivor population at all....once estimated about 60, its now double that...but not many more, for sure. With a coin like this...all the nice ones are accounted for, or so it would seem. PCGS coinfacts give the top coin as an xf45, with two xf40 and then an vf30 and a few f 15 pieces. PMs on this board have alerted me to a dark uncirculated piece, whth some mint red...in an impounded collection in vermont. searches reveal one piece graded au in an ngc collection ( but uncertified).
Looking through Breens encyclopedia, it mentions grade by surface. also, he notes 'prohibitively rare above F'. Tony Carlotto uses the 1914 ANS exhibition coin, the ex ryder specimen...to illustrate his book. thats a vf piece.
SO>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Along comes this coin on ebay, I set my action sniper high..and walk away. Now I own it. Ive spent hours and hours....seriously, hours and hours....looking at this. I feel in my own heart that I am a fairly astutue observer and an I am confident (or have been confident) in my ability to grade and understand my own coins. I have tried to glean as much information on the technique of "grading by surface" from these boards and orher sources. Using the original sheldon descriptions of grades, and going by QDBs instructions on grading colonials (look and see what is offered and in collections and try to develop an eye for seeing the grade)......I am coming up with things my eyes are showing my brain, and the brain is saying...
WAIT THIS CANNOT BE TRUE<<<
OK, here is what I see. Im not posting pictures now. This is what I see.
1. Luster. I uderstand Luster is the paramount indicator of Mint State. I see this on all surfaces of the coin, the luster exists on the fields and the devices. It does not appear to be 'broken' on the high points of the coin, ie, no polishing or cleaning.
2. Strike. This piece is better struck than any known. there are full details on the center of the rear figure, which I have seen hints of on only one other coin, the highest grade ryder 15, an unquestioned rarity of which only a few were struck with the damaged reverse die. From that fresh die, at least one surviving coin shows central details. With this Britannia style of liberty, she holds a staff, which covers most of the coins length. This is vivid, well struck and at the right reflection looks like a brilliant crisp line. You can see her fingers holding the staff, and the finial at the base.
3. Color. the overlall shade is one of chocolate brown, with olive brown fields, and when held at certain angles, there is moderate deep reddisn brown in the recessed areas. the scattered minor planchet laminations reveal a floor of deep salmon pink. Into the planchet fissures, this salmon pink mixes with old verdigris.
4. Verdigris. It is there, a few patches on the obverse, and there are spots of this visible on the outer rims and here and there on the coin.
5. the rims....these are amazing. this coin was struck with an open collar, that is, the metal flowed free from the pressure of the dies and was unrestricted. I have studied the rims for hours, and detect a wire edge in places, and an even razor sharp edge both obverse and reverse, with no nicks, rounding, dents visible.
6. details on the high points. the shield on this coin is a high point, with the elusive wheat sheaf atop that. the leg on the left, that is a high point also. very high, when felt through the cellophane of the old 2X2 this coin has been in (the listing of the coin in the 1996 redbook, the page number, is written on the 2x2). the high points show no break in the luster, and no nick, dents marks or scratches at all.
7. the Letters. Stamped in after the die was made, these show hard shouldered strength with crisp edges and a smooth surface on the top of the letter.
8. flow lines. There are radial flow lines all over the fields of the reverse, broken by the devices, letters, and extending to the exact edge of the rims, which are smooth faced.
9. crispness near the rims. The planchet, being 26.8 mm in diameter yet weighing 116.5 grains is fairly thick. It does not fill the entire area that the dies can strike. Analysis by carlotto estimates that the orignal die diameter was 31.5 mm!
when the letters, and the date especially come to the rim, they stop abruptly, with no rounding or flow into the edge of the coin. as the dentils leave the space of the planchet, they flow off the coin, leaving the last one a mere pinhead of a point, sitting on the edge.
10. Planchet fissures...Yes, they are there. The indigenous Vermonts have the worst metal of any colonial coin series, not a point in dispute. BUT, they are an aid here in that one highly complex fissure has very delicate shelving right to the rim of the coin, and this is not disturbed in any way.
11. CIRCULATION WEAR...I cannot find it. Just...cannot find it. I have located ONE tic mark, a miniscule nick that is located toward the base of the staff that the reverse figure holds. I cannot see any other evidence of scratches, tic marks, dents, abrasions....nothing like this anywhere on the coin.
This all is very hard for me to accept. Simply because when I add it all up, I keep getting MS66RB.
Yes that is scary, isnt it? the highest graded VT is a Ryder 6 landscape at MS62, currently residing in the bowels of the Gopher State Hoard (collection). Lookhg at the large images on Heritage of this coin show a piece that is MS62 ...uhh...or is it? the revese shows a whole series of deep scratches, with dozens of smaller contact marks visible. Id look at that oin in hand, and not puzzle at all over a grade.
this one I have now...thats a puzzle.
OH, you say,,,just send it out for grading. Uh Huh...but I dont trust PCGS, NGC or ANACS. I dont know why...but deep down I distrust them and feel the thing would come back in a Fine details holder. No faith. Im sorry, but No faith in them seeing what I see. Perhaps this will change when I actually DO submit it, maybe they will see exactly what I see..but till then, I want experts to see this and give me input.
Ive shown it to a few on this board via PM and discussed it. New england rarities ...."A MONSTER
CRO had a great analysis of the coin,
.....................Well, here's what I see:
It is very sharp - as sharp as any I have seen of this variety.
It has areas of extremely choice, hard and seemingly lustrous surfaces.
It has odd color.
It is very obtrusively and not so attractively flawed.
It has some very profound and nasty verdigris.
Typically with these, collectors make trade-offs since it's hard to find a piece that offers everything.
For someone seeking sharpness, this is an excellent specimen.
The most sought after and expensive Vermonts tend to be those would choice color and unflawed planchets, so the major collectors in this series would prefer one with more wear, but better color and planchet and no environmental issues.
Best,
JA
..............I sent a photo file to QDB who has a deep love of the Vermont series (and owns that au53 babyhead),,
Dear Ray,
Thank you for the images. This is by no means the finest known, but it certainly is a nice example. If you are not a member you might want to join the Colonial Coin Collectors Club, a very nice group founded in 1993. Information is on the Internet. Also, if you do not have my Whitman Encyclopedia of Colonial and Early American Coins you might want to borrow a copy or else buy one on the Internet from whitmanbooks.com. You can also order if from our Wolfeboro office. The list price is $49.95. If you are interested, please feel free to contact Melissa Karstedt at our Wolfeboro office at 800-811-1804.
I do indeed find the Vermont coppers to be fascinating. They are historical, rustic, and charming in their own way.
All good wishes for you.
Sincerely,
Dave Bowers
................................but the difficulty I have in my mind accepting what I am seeing is twisting me into a numismatic pretzel. IS IT MS? Is it one of the very very few numismatically saved Vermont Colonials?
And these thoughts bang around inside my head for hours on end..then I look at the coin again for awhile...and stil l keep seeing MS66 sharpness. The verdigris...well, how will you look in 225 years? thats a thing to deal with, or not to deal with. Havent decided yet...but despite what father time has thrown at this coin...I dont think it has seen any post mint circulation. You decide.
0
Comments
I wouldn't waste the effort needed to talk someone else into liking a coin they just don't like.
Coin Rarities Online
It simply takes away from the grade and eye-appeal, and while I am not a
colonial collector and don't know the flexibility of the TPG's, I would without-a-
doubt put this in a GENNIE if I were a TPG.
From my ZERO experience in grading colonials, I would say the details are at
least EF, and strikes can be a misleading factor as to the true grade of a coin;
I know this well from collecting early Bust Silver coins!
I'm content with CRO's feedback, and I wouldn't worry so much about the "grade"
and just enjoy the piece!
Im just seriously asking people to take a close look at these macros and tell me if they see anything other than the condition of this coin as it was struck, to tell me if the see any evidence of this piece being in circulation. were not grading the planchet. its ugly. its was ugly when it was new, its ugly now. the planchet is ugly. there are a LOT uglier...this one is ugly where it dosent count much, in the deep mailed bust area, and in the bottom of the figures legs (theres no detail there any way to obstruct. It does weaken the obverse opposing though, and took the detail out of the head).
Seriously, this is driving me nuts. and I dont need that. No one seems to understand or take this seriously, a very serious and well thought out analysis on my part is poo pooed and thrown out the window like the rantings of an idiot. Im working very hard to understand numismatics and colonials in particular now, and I find one that is most interesting and presenting a unique look and a serious opportunity to study and analyze early pre mint coinage...and possibly, no, not possibly, PROBABLY see the closest thing to a fully untouched mint state Vermont...and ugh, well I get CRO telling me not to wast my time....
Stone, Ive seen a lot of EF coins. they dont come crisp like this, with luster. this is whats grabbing at my testies...just zeRo support from people who can look at these 100X macros in detail showing this crispness....it gets poo poohed and turned into EF. Not Understanding at all. Not understanding.
you darn it... sometimes i wonder. I really wonder.
the coin in hand, not just images. After you have listened to what they have to say, you should be able to
relax about it a bit.
My opinion of your coin is that it probably has very little actual wear, but the surface problems over-ride this.
Sorry.
- 1 I like it! Like a beautiful aged lady, it has personality and conveys the magesty of its age, glimmers of its youthful appearance and presents forcefully the vicissitudes of its origins and long life.
- 2 Technical Grade, though meaningless, could be MS. Market Grade, also meaningless with a coin like this, is maybe XF.
- 3 You are perseverating about unknowables, spinning your wheels, trying almost desparately to extract from your photos and observations a specific grade for this coin when there is no applicable grading scale.
- 4 CRO and STONE are on the money. Forget about what other people think about your Vermont Colonial! 10 different experienced observers will have 10 different perspectives and not one will conincide closely enough with yours to offer you much staisfaction.
- 5 I have learned from Ikes that the grade/valuation of a coin is the summation of a coins strengths and weaknesses, but that purtains only for a "normal Ike". I could cry to the Heavens that a grease struck-through Ike that would be MS67 were it not for all the planchet chatter that the grease protected from being struck-out should be graded MS67. I see an MS67 coin because I understand the coin. I would not expect many others, perhaps no other Ike collectors to agree with me.
Put it this way: coin grading as presesntly practiced provides a rough basis for sight-unseen buying and selling. How would you feel if you had bought this coin sight-unseen for six figures because it was housed in an MS66 RB PCGS holder?
Just trying to be hellpful. . . Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
Just a few points not said via pm.
In my PM to you I mentioned that yeah it has the flaws and yeah it has verdigris but it is a MONSTER for the variety. Now, in reading your post, I will agree with Dave Bowers that this is not the finest known of the die variety, but it is certainly one of the strongest examples from a standpoint of strike, right up there with one or two others.
The verdigris and the flaws do keep the net grade down on this (or any coin) even in the Vermont series. As you know, sometimes flaws are unavoidable in this series, and "taking what you can get" is part of collecting by die variety. A lot of Vermont specialists will like this coin a lot as the detail showing is striking for the variety and the full wheat sheaf on the reverse is not present on most, either from strike or wear.
I do not this our host will holder this coin, but if they did I assume it would be netted down somewhat, which IMHO is only fair because of the mentioned planchet and environmental issues.
As CRO pointed out, many collectors of Vermonts would sacrifice some detail for a smooth and problem free planchet. This goes to the old argument of is the strongest example known the finest known of a variety. As an example, I am sure there are cases where a MS66(top grade) has sold for and is listed as below an MS65 example of a rare coin somewhere/sometime. Finest known in the colonial coin realm is thrown around a lot. It is all in the eye of the person doing the Condition Census, thus why almost every list made for the same coins is totally different.
Lastly, one of the joys of collecting colonials is that each coin is uniquely different from the next and every single coin is historical and interesting in its own way. Some are worth more money than others, but the passion and uniqueness is the same between collectors/coins that are $100 vs. $100k. The most important aspect of collecting colonials (and coins in general) is making sure that YOU love the coins that you purchase and enjoy them as much as you can. We are only custodians of these historical treasures, not really the owners as they have already survived for 225 and will be around much longer than you or I.
You have a fantastic Vermont that would wow a lot of specialists and that is something to be proud of. That is certainly something special!
<< <i>Put it this way: coin grading as presesntly practiced provides a rough basis for sight-unseen buying and selling. How would you feel if you had bought this coin sight-unseen for six figures because it was housed in an MS66 RB PCGS holder?
Just trying to be hellpful. . . Rob >>
This is an excellent question, I would love to hear the answer to.
PS: I think your coin is wonderful.
plenty in common, even with the huge discrepancies in quality from the coiner.
While the reverse does show luster flow lines in the protected areas of the coin, they aren't visible in the more wear prone areas. Even with striking flatness I'd expect to
see more luster for a MS66. The reverse rim from 7-9:00 doesn't show any luster. The obverse in total doesn't seem to show obvious/bold luster anywhere. The left and upper obv
fields show signs of some faintish luster but that's expected on an XF-MS62 coin. I can't call the luster bold when it essentially doesn't seem to be there in quantity. While the OP's
orig statement says that this coin has luster on all fields and high points, that doesn't appear to be the case to me based on the photos provided.
The obv highpoints of the nose-mouth-jaw, hair at top of head, left obverse rim, all show a much lighter coloration than the rest of the obverse. These areas look flat and devoid of
luster. I can only assume it's from wear and not just striking issues. If these 3 major high point areas were a darker color consistent with the rest of the obverse I would feel differently.
This is one common trait that profile coins all share. A large unprotected area in the center of coin that will be first to lose luster, and then later on, patina as well. There appears to be
a faint aura of luster close to the facial profile and also along the words "Vermon." But the area between them is darker and doesn't appear to have any luster....that's consistent in my
mind with rubbing on the face, head, and left obv rim. It is interesting that the reverse gives off some very obvious field luster flow lines but the obverse doesn't. From my mind, if
that luster doesn't visibly radiate at least a little in each and every major field, then it's not of 66 quality, regardless of what year is what made.
Regardless of the luster and wear arguments, the verdigris, planchet issues in any event limit the coin to the sub-MS63 category. All I can say is that it looks like a coin with AU-MS62
details. And I would lean more toward the AU side not being very familar with striking issues on this colonial. Rather than focusing on the bold luster flow lines that appear on the
reverse in more protected areas, I focus on the obv where I don't see any such flow lines. From that standpoint alone one would think they were not the same coin. I can recall many
times in the past where I spent hours looking at seated coins that otherwise appeared to be untouched gem mint state but in the end had environmental or mint caused damage that
lowered their net grade or value to AU-MS62. None of this changes the fact that this is one of the finest of this variety available.
roadrunner
I love Vermonts but still mostly agree with the criticisms...the negs really bash this thing.
I feel your pain...I own a Newcomb variety large cent that is the only one known in UNC but has a major planchet flaw...which just destroys the value, according to every specialist I've shown it to. Apparently I'm the only one who cares that it's the only known UNC.
Any issue with the planchet *aside* from the verdigris should not be taken as damage to the coin. I will add many thanks one and all for your comments. I have two macro videos of the coin in hand in all positions and in rotation which I will post a link to later. Happiness is owning a gorgeous Vermont!!!
vermont ryder 10
second video
Some may feel my analysis of this piece is 'over the top' but I assure you its the only way I can enjoy the coin fully. Of course, value is a factor here. No price guide covers pieces like this, one can only use auction sale records...but again, they dont exist for a coin at this level.
QDB in the new Colonial Coin book published by Whitman, prices the coin in XF at $9500. and no, I do NOT plan to sell or offer this coin for sale to anyone. itz mine.
PS, mention has been made of finer specimens of the ryder 10 (or even add in the 11 and 15)...if anyone has any images or a finer piece, or a piece that is close to this one, either from the net or a scan from an auction catalog...please post, Id love to see.
The low point of my coin collecting life was last thursday. My coin club, or rather five members who are the executives were having their monthly business meeting. I had been in phone contact with our club prez, who I feel is very in tune to numismatics..but busy, always busy, and nearly impossible to speak to and hold his attention...suggested taking the coin there for these guys to look at.
Well, let me tell you, I was never so embarrassed or belittled in my entire life. The coin was called "a piece of junk" by one member (executive) of the club. Others would not even look at it, even a glance...for effect. "I dont collect those"...I know you dont. Thats exactly why I wanted them to examine it. grade by surface. all coins have surfaces. all coins can get graded that way and I expected some decent intelligent analysis....but NO. One guy honestly looked away...turned his head away...like I was showing him something evil he could not see..or he would turn so stone.
To give credit, perhaps the most astute collector there, an older gent, said "You got a great coin there".
..........as I walked out the door, I turned briefly to see one of them laughing as I went out.
Im still debating ever going back there again.
<< <i>I feel your pain...I own a Newcomb variety large cent that is the only one known in UNC but has a major planchet flaw...which just destroys the value, according to every specialist I've shown it to. Apparently I'm the only one who cares that it's the only known UNC. >>
The value of a coin like this will not be evident until the hammer comes down at auction... the experts will have spoken and the contrarian chatter will fade like an old memory.
"treat" on coins they had probably never seen come through their door. Imagine my surprise for example when they felt my MS65 RE half and MS63 1839 no drapery half were
AU's. Suffice to say it was the last time I ever do show and tell there. Better to wait for some similar "AU's" to show up someday so I could buy them as AU's.
My comments on this coin were pretty much only directed at the high point coloration differences, areas of flatness and appearance of luster. Based on those alone and with those
new videos I don't see anything that tells me that the coin is truly mint state. Planchet quality, verdigris, etc. don't play a role in assessing original luster or wear.
roadrunner
Since you are inviting comments, let me chime in with a few. First of all, the dramatic variation in even the same variety of a particular Colonial coin is what makes collecting collecting Colonials so interesting and something that allows you to keep collecting and learning for decades. I have been collecting Colonials for over 25 years and frequently I feel I know less today than when I first started. Secondly, I have found people's taste in what they like and what and how they collect changes over time. Lastly, the more coins of a variety and type you look at, the more your tastes evolve.
I have been collecting Vermonts by variety for sometime and have about 30 of the possible 39 varieties. It has taken me years to assemble these and I have never settled for a coin that does not speak to me. With out a doubt (and not be coincidence as they were made by many of the same people) Vermonts and Machin's Mills coinage universally come on the roughest most problematic planchet stock of almost any Colonial. So if you are going to collect them, you need to go in expecting to compromise no mater how discriminating your tastes are.
Compromises tend come down to strike, color, surface, balance of the coin (centering on obverse and reverse and whether all elements of the legend and date fit on the planchet), and finally the number and type of distractions.
So with all that said, it seems like you have thoroughly analyzed these different criteria and concluded you love your coin. Congratulations, that is after all what we should all own and aspire to in our our collections, coins we love.
But, from my perspective which is just one collector's opinion, here is how I evaluate your rare and very tough to get nice Ryder 10. First, the best thing about your piece is it's color. Ryder 10s are usually dark and a light brown one is few and far between. Next, the strike is above average, maybe in the upper quartile, but there are better struck Ryder 10s out there. Next, the balance is a little off. The obverse has the legends off the planchet from 1:00 to 5:00 and on the reverse, the head is of Britania and her staff are a little off the planchet.
Turning to grade, that is a little more complex. Maybe EF sharpness at maximum, but definitely netted significantly down for verdigris, brick red (oxidation in red rather than green color), material planchet voids (more than normal for a better specimen) all in distracting places like the devices and legends.
As to uncirculated, I am highly skeptical. The "luster" you see may really be what they call isostacy which happens as a coin is heated and struck and the pressure of the die creates stretch lines sometimes giving off the appearance of luster as you see between and around the legends on the reverse. Also, there are clear signs of circulation on the obverse in the form of various nicks and marks. A real uncirculated Vermont which is very rare and very few and far between actually still show die polish marks on the surface, mint red or traces of it in the legend between the letters and has a little cartwheel flash. If you want to see this in the coin, look at the Ford Sale Ryder 18 and 29, two of the very few uncirculated Vermonts I can ever remember seeing. Perhaps compare your coin to those two and see what you think.
Persoanlly, I am not much into slab grading. I have no coins in slabs. But I think if you were to slab it, it would come back as original but not graded due to environmental damage. I would personally grade it maybe a net fine. But when problem free VF is about as good as it gets, that is not bad.
Anyway JMO.
Best,
novacaesarea
Ambro and I have discussed the coin a bit via PM, so he is well aware of what I think about it.
They are also a very big part of our beginnings as a nation.
As with any coin, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. While the pictured coin is not asthetically beautiful, it sure does show some great details. It is a shame that it entered its days on a bad planchet, as was the case with so many Vermont coppers. The environmental issues certainly detract from it as well. I'm usually not one to suggest conservation, but in this case I would go for it.
Thanks again for an enjoyable read.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."