Please Define "Grade By Surface"....

ambro51

Lets say you are looking at a coin. A specific variety, one of which Walter Breen says "Grade by Surface"

what criterion would be used to detect wear, circulation, ....or, to paraphrase, what criterion would be used to detect Mint State?

ambro51

Anyone? How would ANA grading standards apply to judge mint state?

illini420

don't we grade all coins by their surfaces?? hard to grade the interior of a coin, right???

PerryHall

This phrase is used for and applies to coins struck with extremely weak details such as the 1922 Plain Lincoln cents or certain branch mint buffalo nickels. The coin may have no or very little wear but have the design details of a much lower grade. In other words, grade based on the amount of remaining luster and wear rather than the coin's design details.

jesbroken

Without seeing how the phrase was used and in what specific range he was speaking of, I would ASSume that it perhaps did not intend the statement in relevance to MS coins but coins with wear. I could be wrong and he was just lying.
Jim

MidLifeCrisis

If you are talking about a colonial era coin, such as a Vermont copper, then I think the phrase means that you need to develop an understanding and appreciation of the general planchet quality of most coins of that specific variety so you can judge where on the grading spectrum a particular coin belongs based on the amount of planchet flaws and other surface issues compared to all coins of that variety.

Or, a variation, the typical grading attributes may not apply to a particular variety - if they are all poorly struck, with problems, are not available in high grade, with cuds, significant die cracks, etc. So you judge the overall surface of the coin and it's lack of problems against other known examples of the variety.

Then again, it's Breen...so who knows?

MidLifeCrisis

<< <i>Anyone? How would ANA grading standards apply to judge mint state? >>


A "mint state" colonial coin can be far from perfect. It's certainly not the same as a later federal issue that is judged to be "mint state".

ColonialCoinUnion

To me, grade by surface means to grade by luster, for example, as opposed to details, and is is (or was, according to Breen) applicable to weakly struck issues like some Vermonts or Connecticuts.

Frankcoins

<< <i>This phrase is used for and applies to coins struck with extremely weak details such as the 1922 Plain Lincoln cents or certain branch mint buffalo nickels. The coin may have no or very little wear but have the design details of a much lower grade. In other words, grade based on the amount of remaining luster and wear rather than the coin's design details. >>



correct

ziggy29

<< <i>This phrase is used for and applies to coins struck with extremely weak details such as the 1922 Plain Lincoln cents or certain branch mint buffalo nickels. The coin may have no or very little wear but have the design details of a much lower grade. In other words, grade based on the amount of remaining luster and wear rather than the coin's design details. >>

That's my understanding. But I would think this is a "technical grade" (the quality of the grade relative to "as struck" when it left the Mint), and the "market grade" is probably somewhere in between the "grade by surface" and the remaining details. For example, a coin with XF surfaces but Fine details might "market grade" VFish, give or take.

ambro51

All struck coins as I understand are in Mint State supposed to show a difference between the devices/bust surface and a clean break into a different surface on the actual field of the coin.

and I understand also that the actual surface of the coin, the area struck by the die, will have a different finish/look than the rim, and I correct in this? Does the actual angular sharpness of the coin as it breaks into the rim considered in grading by surface, since this is not actually a detail?
\\

(just trying to fully understand grading by surface)

crypto79

Parryhall is right on but I would add that the flow lines can take on many different characteristics depending on the strike limiting root cause. Depending on die erosion, limited striking pressure, off weight/size planchet, improperly seated planchet, improperly annealed or alloyed planceht or just old fashion chaos like grease or breakage the coin can have many different looks and personalities and it is important to be able to correlate the strike dynamics to the cause as to know what you are looking at too then comprehend the progression or wear that handling will impart. For example the CC Seated dollars often look VF when they are in XF because the high points (Liberty) are shallow to begin with. This is also an import skill for Southern Branch mint Gold.

To get to your main question that the grade by surfaces really only applies to the grade range of VF25-MS64 IMHO. Anything before or after it's kind of a moot point as a worn coin is a worn and strike can preclude a GEM grade IMO.