World collectors action needed

JCMhouston · October 20, 2011 6:15AM

Receoved this today and checked the .gov site. Bulgaria has made a secret reques to have improts of certain pieces of "cultural heritage" banned form import and trading. They kept the request secret so we can't know exactly what is included in the request (coins etc.).

Dear VCoins/VAuctions Customer:

This message is being transmitted on behalf of the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild (ACCG) concerning an urgent matter that affects all collectors of ancient coins.

What is being asked of you is to take 5 minutes to write a comment to the State Department’s Cultural Property Advisory Committee via a website. Please submit your comment once by the deadline of November 2, 2011, 5pm EST.

Please consider sending this to any coin collector you know:

The US State Department is seeking public comment on a new request for import restrictions made on behalf of Bulgaria. To submit comments electronically to the State Department’s Cultural Property Advisory Committee (CPAC), go here:
Form to fill out

theboz11 · October 20, 2011 6:29AM

I just saw that La. was passing a law BANNING PAYING CASH for second hand items,,, That does include old coins.

bronzemat · October 20, 2011 7:40AM

I got it too. Darn straight I will be sending my piece.

IloiloKano · October 20, 2011 10:14AM

<< I just saw that La. was passing a law BANNING PAYING CASH for second hand items,,, That does include old coins. >>

How can you ban payment in cash for any debt, public or private, when that is the definition of Legal Tender?

MrEureka · October 20, 2011 1:16PM

How can you ban payment in cash for any debt, public or private, when that is the definition of Legal Tender?

I don't know the details of the current proposal, but I'll answer your question anyway. You don't actually ban cash payments, but you require six forms of ID from the buyer. End result is the same.

Sapyx · October 21, 2011 11:27AM

I think it's laughable that Bulgaria, of all places, is trying to do this, given the chaotic state of Bulgaria's cultural heritage laws. They should get their own house in order before going around telling other countries what to do.

mrpotatoheadd · October 21, 2011 12:05PM

<< How can you ban payment in cash for any debt, public or private, when that is the definition of Legal Tender? >>

Because cash is legal tender for debts owed, which a retail purchase isn't.

SYRACUSIAN · October 21, 2011 6:13PM

This recent tendency of repatriation, or at least stop the illegal smuggling (for this is what it is mostly about) of further National Heritage from each issuing country was started by Greece and collectors shouldn't fear it at all. It's mostly addressed to smugglers, and the unscrupulous Western dealers who are their market. There's already an abundance of 99% of all these coins in the market, and with MrEureka's exception, I doubt if there ever was one of the members who posted, who ever bought a coin from Bulgaria so far.

And even if there is somebody, we still have Philip, a member who lives in Bulgaria, of which I'm sure that he wouldn't hesitate to make any purchases on your behalf if asked nicely.

Gazza · October 21, 2011 7:33PM

<< I think it's laughable that Bulgaria, of all places, is trying to do this, given the chaotic state of Bulgaria's cultural heritage laws. They should get their own house in order before going around telling other countries what to do. >>

I think you will find that Bulgaria can do as they please regarding their own country. Why should they listen to what a bunch of foriegners think.

Hussulo · October 21, 2011 10:08PM

I guess the worry here by collectors and the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild is that these cases will set an example and other countries might ask to "have imports of certain pieces of "cultural heritage" banned form import and trading."

What I don't understand is will this ban include the sale/ resale of any Bulgarian or Greek coins or artefacts within the US or only a ban in importing coins or artefacts from Bulgaria?

If the first option then this will have a HUGE implication for collectors and dealers.

If its the second, then what's to stop someone/ dealers buying items in Bulgaria taking it to another country ie Turkey and shipping them from there?

What is the current procedure for citizens in Bulgaria or Greece that find or unearth artefacts or coins? If they are asked to simply hand them over to the state, then I can see why that might not work. I think the UK sets a good example by compensating finders/ landlords with the current market value for any treasure trove found.

The carrot and the stick method has been proven too work well in the past. The stick only method, not so well.

JCMhouston · October 21, 2011 11:33PM

<< I think you will find that Bulgaria can do as they please regarding their own country. Why should they listen to what a bunch of foriegners think. >>

I am perfectly fine with Bulgaria doing what they want within their own country, what I am not fine with is having a secret treaty that affects me. They can ban trafficing in grapefruit within Bulgaria for all I care, but that should mean nothing to me as a grapefruit buyer in the US. If the items they want the US to ban sale and import of are so contentious that they need to keep it secret then I believe that it is probably set up for less than stellar reasons. My guess is this has more to do with raising revenue than anything else. Remember they have requested it to be secret so we don't know what those things are, they extort money from museums if they want to be able to keep things on display or in their collections. And they reduce the value of any items in private collections to essentially zero since they can no longer be legally sold.

Items "of cultural heritage" have moved in and out of Bulgaria for thousands of years and now reside in collections of European and US museums, as well as private collections, throughout the world. Why should a piece of art, or a coin, removed from Bulgaria by a Roman visitor, 2,000 years ago be subject to a new law?
And no, I don't believe that Egypt, Greece, Italy or anyone else has any claim on something that left their country hundreds or even thousands of years ago.

I agree with Huss, the UK laws are excellent models for everyone to follow, but most governments are too greedy to even think about it.

GRANDAM · October 22, 2011 4:25AM

<< 

<< I think it's laughable that Bulgaria, of all places, is trying to do this, given the chaotic state of Bulgaria's cultural heritage laws. They should get their own house in order before going around telling other countries what to do. >>

I think you will find that Bulgaria can do as they please regarding their own country. Why should they listen to what a bunch of foriegners think. >>

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I agree,,,,, Bulgaria won't give a crap what anyone in the US has to say

Sapyx · October 22, 2011 7:20PM

<< ...collectors shouldn't fear it at all. It's mostly addressed to smugglers, and the unscrupulous Western dealers who are their market... >>

It may not be aimed at collectors, but these cultural MOAs are being pushed by archaeological protectionists who believe that antiquities collectors (a term which includes coin collectors) are The Enemy - so if a few of them get caught in the crossfire, they're not going to shed a tear.

<< What I don't understand is will this ban include the sale/ resale of any Bulgarian or Greek coins or artefacts within the US or only a ban in importing coins or artefacts from Bulgaria? >>

Only importing is affected. It's not a new law, it's a new Customs regulation. Customs has nothing to do with domestic trade or travel.

<< If its the second, then what's to stop someone/ dealers buying items in Bulgaria taking it to another country ie Turkey and shipping them from there? >>

Because the regulations don't have anything to do with where the coin is bought or sold, only where the coin originally came from. If this gets passed, anyone bringing or sending ancient coins "of Bulgarian type" into the US is liable to have their coins seized and repatriated, whether you bought the coins in Bulgaria, London or Melbourne, or whether you bought them 5 days ago or 5 decades ago. It does depend on US Customs agents being able to tell the difference between ancient Bulgarian coins and, say, ancient Romanian ones, or even between ancient Bulgarian coins and fake ancient Bulgarian coins. Unless Customs plan on hiring a bunch of experts in Bulgarian coins, it will kind of depend on the importer being stupid enough to write "ancient Bulgarian coins" on the Customs declaration form, or maybe on the 2x2s the coins are in.

Hussulo · October 23, 2011 4:52AM

"Because the regulations don't have anything to do with where the coin is bought or sold, only where the coin originally came from."

That seems a tad unfair. With that analogy Britain should be able to ask for all their Sovereigns back in a few hundred to a thousand years as they are a product of Britain and part of its history? I don't believe a a country or producer of an item should be allowed to automatically claim possession of said item.

Coins by definition were produced to be used in trade and quite a high number have been used out with the countries that produced them, or legally taken out at the time of issue. If a coin or item can be proven to be recently unearthed or smuggled / stolen recently then they should be handed back to their country of origin but you cannot just throw a blanket over all items and ask for all items to be returned to the country in which they were produced. What happened to "innocent until proven guilty".

It would be kind of like France asking for all Monet paintings back just because they were produced in France. A lot of antiquities were made to be traded or sold to other countries and sometimes used as storage vessels, as an example an amphora which were meant to carry wine and weren't meant to return. How can said countries prove that some of the coins and antiquities don't fall into this bracket?

I am totally against illegal sales of artefacts and countries antiquities being pillaged but countries should be doing more to tackle these problems domestically, there's an old saying "a dead fish starts to small from its head first" in other words you need to go to the root of the problem (the head, or leader), in this case the countries that are worried about this problem and ask how can we tackle this problem directly.

World collectors action needed

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