Vintage unopened and how to tell if its legit

arex

As I get more and more into collecting and buyin older unopened stuff I need to know what are the signs of a pack/rack/cello being legit unopened.
What do I need to look for and what do I need to know so I can be educated on this part of the market.
Thanks

EchoCanyon

Never buy Xmas racks --

scmavl

Just buy from BBCE.

Anything else (ungraded) I've bought has been from highly questionable to obviously resealed.

arex

Yes I understand I can buy from BBCEX and there be nonproblems.
However that isn't what I asked.

Dboneesq

Reading this article may help you a bit.

ThoseBackPages

on eBay, factory sealed cases are fine.

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

From my experience alot of 1989 Fleer cases are resealed. Pop the seal, open a box, see what version, backfill and reseal.

Cello- Fleer used clear tape. Should be yellowed and not have new tape over it.

Rack- Fleer used the Fleer logo tape. Again, look for clear tape over the busted seal. Look for the Fleer word and logo to line up. Once I rec'd a case where the tape was old and poped off and they (sloppily) glued the tape back on.

Some other quick tips-

Wax Trays- Tricky. Research. I almost got burned but luckily ebay sided with me. Some will make trays. Make sure the Lot/UPC? sumber on the back of the tray is consistent with others. Make sure the tray is the right one for that year/product. Wax trays are brittle. Cellophane look new? If ripped on the end, does it look glued back on the folds?

Racks- As stated, avoid X-Mas racks. Some older racks are made. Not my area of expertise, but I've heard the wrong cellopane was used (too thick) and the header was wrong. Does all the crimps? on the crimped end match up? Most racks (all?) have a collation pattern so cherry picking is a concern.

Cello/Wax- Look for heat marks on the flaps. Use a loupe to see it roller marks line up. Corners tight? Crease in the middle of the wax paper? Although I think I've opened junk wax that was creased in odd places. Gum the right size? Research sellers buy/sell history. If I was too buy a vintage pack, I'd watch all the wrapper sales for awhile before purchasing one and keep a pic file to help ensure the one you buy was not made. I know 1989 Fleer has collation patterns. Noticed 2-3 different ones. Knowing who is on top or bottom can let you know who is possibly insde.

There's tons more but that's all I can remember off the top of my head. Tons of past threads on this board with valuable info about this.

Good Luck, Donovan

Mickey71

Pray. I believe no positive way to tell.

jswieton

From my experience, most older factory cases have been opened at some point to verify what is actually in the case. Just because a case has been opened doesn't necessarily mean it is bad or has been searched.

70ToppsFanatic

Here are some of the observations I have made during my years with regard to Topps Baseball products:

1) NEVER ASSUME that just because it is graded by GAI, it therefore must be legit. For example, take a look at some of
the 1970-1972 Topps baseball "grocery cellos" they have graded and encased. TOPPS NEVER PRODUCED GROCERY
CELLOS IN THESE YEARS! They may be legitimate 3rd-party packs made from the card sets from those years, but they
are not official Topps product. There is some guy on Ebay who keeps listing these things, and despite notifying Ebay
that they are not legitimate and providing Steve Hart as the expert reference they stiff refuse to remove these items.

2) Anything pre-1981 wax always needs to be carefully checked to make sure that the roller marks line up properly.
Lots of people have been known to buy wrappers and then "re-seal" them. But it isn't as easy as it looks, and often
you will find the original seal lines. The gum can also be a giveaway, as older gum often cracks. If the pieces of the
gum stick don't match up to form the Topps "rectangle" of the typical size you know you have an issue.

3) Older wax boxes are not always "original" in the sense that they may not contain the original packs that were
enclosed in the box. Some people have refilled the empty display boxes and with individual packs to create a
"full" box. There's a significantly higer risk that some of the packs may be "re-seals" when the box is re-filled
by someone buying up individual packs. For older vintage material that was issued in series, mixed series in a box
is usually a dead-giveaway except for certain known cases (e.g. 1970 Topps Baseball Series 5/6/7 packs)

4) Racks and cellos are equally prone to being doctored or faked. Technology available today to wrap things in
plastic is a lot more available to the public for relatively cheap prices. Depending on what year you are buying
you should know about things like packaging dimensions, typical "tightness" of the packs, seam orientation
and even card sequencing (based on the cuts from the master sheets many card sequences tend to occur
regular, e.g. Yount/Fisk/Cash in 1976 Topps BB rack packs). Also if you find cards in them with wax stains
you know somebody was up to no good.

5) Individual vending boxes are especially difficult because they are not physically "sealed" in a way that would
unambiguously prove that they were original. Many times they get searched with the best cards being pulled
and the remainder being left behind so that the box seems good. Vending boxes usually exhibit something of
a "stripe" pattern in terms of how the cards appear in the box when you lift the top. If the stripes do not appear
to be "uniform"/consistent then you need be concerned. Also since the boxes are usually stored in such a way
that the cards are on their sides, the cards tend to develop a very slight curvature if they have been undisturbed
in the box for a long time. If you see inconsistency in that curvature that should probably also give you cause to
be concerned. Curvature tends to be unique to each box, so if someone is moving cards from one box to another
you will see slight differences in the curvature and/or the striping.

6) Usually is is good to ask what the history of the item is. Where it came from? How long the seller has owned
it? How they know it to be authentic? And lastly, I usually ask if the seller would be willing to provide a full refund
if an independent expert deemed that there was any issue (not that Steve has the time to do this for everyone
out here as a public service, but just to hear the seller's response is usually a good way to get a read on the situation).

At the moment the most trustworthy expert of the subject of unopned material is Steve Hart at BBCE. My second choice
would be a few of the reasonably seasoned collectors (i.e. non-retail people) who have handled a lot of this material.

Overall, I've always found that assuming things to be suspect until reasonably demonstrated to be legitimate is the best
approach on this. Caveat Emptor.

Hope this is useful.

DISCLAIMER: The above opinions are based on personal observations and experiences over the past 4 decades which have
usually worked out well. That being said, I do not claim to be an expert nor can I make any guarantees or warranties regarding
use of these methodologies.

arex

Thanks for the information folks.
What is meant by roller marks? I understand what it means but I dont know what to look for. I also dont have any unopened wax/rack here to take a look at and see.
Anyone able to give me a visual?

PaulMaul

<< <i>Thanks for the information folks.
What is meant by roller marks? I understand what it means but I dont know what to look for. I also dont have any unopened wax/rack here to take a look at and see.
Anyone able to give me a visual? >>



I've tried to explain to friends how to check packs for the last two years. It's very easy to explain in person, but very difficult to explain in words. It's also very hard to illustrate with pictures because the wax roller marks can only be seen clearly by holding the pack seal under a bright light at the correct angle.

Re-sealing can be easy or hard to detect depending on how good a job the pack faker does. A legit seal will look like a rectangle lying across the seal of the pack. When people use an external heat source to re-melt the wax and re-seal the pack, it is usually very obvious. Sometimes glue is used, and that can be harder to detect unless a flap is lifted slightly.

It is mostly a matter of experience. For seven years I was totally clueless and bought tons of fakes. Around 2.5 years ago I finally bought a clue and have examined tons of packs since. I now feel pretty confident, but there are still some packs I examine where I am less than certain. I now just avoid those and keep only packs that are obviously legit.

PaulMaul

By the way, hi Arex, remember me?

grote15

In my experience, and according to Steve Hart, the vast majority of raw vintage unopened on ebay is resealed, probably over 80%. Legit unopened has a look and feel different from resealed packs. If you see enough of both, it becomes fairly easy to tell the difference. Topps also used sequencing to package racks so certain cards should always appear in the same section. And 12-card grocery cellos, as pointed out, are fake no matter what elaborate story the seller claims about growing up next to the factory.

arex

<< <i>By the way, hi Arex, remember me? >>


Why yes, yes I do!
Thor 126 and Thor 148/9
Very nice books that I regretted selling, especially the 126.

I had been wondering if that was you but never thought to send a PM.

How have you been?

arex

Guys,
thanks for the great great information! Now to see some examples when I get some unopened junk to start putting 2 and 2 together.

bking

<< <i>In my experience, and according to Steve Hart, the vast majority of raw vintage unopened on ebay is resealed, probably over 80%. Legit unopened has a look and feel different from resealed packs. If you see enough of both, it becomes fairly easy to tell the difference. Topps also used sequencing to package racks so certain cards should always appear in the same section. And 12-card grocery cellos, as pointed out, are fake no matter what elaborate story the seller claims about growing up next to the factory. >>



Yeah, those "grocery cellos" that run on Ebay are infuriating to me. I just want to reach out and scream at the bidders. Too bad Ebay took away the ability to email buyers after an auction closed.