Theo Epstein reportedly gone to the Cubs
MCMLVTopps
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in Sports Talk
Red Sox Nation rejoice...Cubs Nation not so much. The 37 year old whiz kid who has brought some DUDS to the Red Sox could well do the same to your team.
I say good riddance. Maybe the Red Sox owners will bring in a real baseball person to take over the helm and right the ship. Official announcement expected in the next couple of days. Could be Tito follows to the Cubs as well...only time will tell.
I say good riddance. Maybe the Red Sox owners will bring in a real baseball person to take over the helm and right the ship. Official announcement expected in the next couple of days. Could be Tito follows to the Cubs as well...only time will tell.
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Ralph
Theo made a few good moves during his tenure, but his recent record is dismal, and has saddled the Red Sox with what appear to be long term losers. For those that think Theo "gave us" the 04 and 07 WS, that is pure hogwash. Theo didn't swing at one ball, catch one ball, nor cross the white lines to in any way effect the outcome of any game during his time as Red Sox GM.
The facts are these...had it not been for Dave Roberts stealing 2nd base in game 4 of the ALCs in 04, and Bill Mueller singling him home to tie the game in the 9th inning...followed by Ortiz's homer off Mariano in extra innings, there would not have been the WS win. Theo didn't cause that to happen.
I'm glad he's gone, if in fact it's true. I do wish however that Francona had been able to stay.
Im glad the Sox are redoing this teams makeup, they needed it big time.
Oooooh yeah!
His dismal track record with free agents (particularly high dollar free agents) is well documented. Lackey and Crawford were indefensible signings. Those weren't second-guess signings, they were first-guess signings. Anyone with half a brain knew that they paid 40-50% more than either of those 2 guys were worth. You'd think Theo and computer geeks would have realized that.
With about $85M annually tied to Beckett, Lackey, Lester, Gonzalez, and Crawford - three guys that quit on their team this year, and two that clearly aren't ready for the pressure in Boston, this team suddenly is looking at a period of mediocrity. There's no way Ellsbury signs here long term, he's just itching to get to free agency. I don't know why Papelbon would stick around to be part of this mess next year (unless the Sox just completely overpay for him).
<< <i>For those of you who are Theo Epstein fans...so be it, I am not one.
Theo made a few good moves during his tenure, but his recent record is dismal, and has saddled the Red Sox with what appear to be long term losers. For those that think Theo "gave us" the 04 and 07 WS, that is pure hogwash. Theo didn't swing at one ball, catch one ball, nor cross the white lines to in any way effect the outcome of any game during his time as Red Sox GM.
The facts are these...had it not been for Dave Roberts stealing 2nd base in game 4 of the ALCs in 04, and Bill Mueller singling him home to tie the game in the 9th inning...followed by Ortiz's homer off Mariano in extra innings, there would not have been the WS win. Theo didn't cause that to happen.
I'm glad he's gone, if in fact it's true. I do wish however that Francona had been able to stay. >>
So Theo gets no credit for what he did right, but gets blamed for whatever went wrong. Doesn't the "never swung a bat, never threw/caught a ball" argument work the same way regarding what went wrong?
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
But, previous to this year, I bet most Red Sox fans on here were happy they signed him.
Lackey was a terrible signing. No excuse for that one.
But, like the guys mentioned above, he had some good ones. Got Schilling too(even though I hate that fat liar).
I am surprised though. With him at the GM helm, they won two World Series. Usually in sports, that is enough to earn a lifetime of admiration. Heck, Red Sox fans have b l o w n Jim Rice all these years...and he didn't win any World Series and he was their third best outfielder.
Go figure.
Jim Hendry was the absolute worst GM in history...well, tied with Ed Lynch. Good lord, those guys were bozos.
Red Sox fans, you all didn't have it so bad.
These Red Sox fans are the same people that have blown Jim Rice all these years, treating him as if he were Jimmy Foxx, even though Rice never won anything, and he was their third best outfielder from that era. Red Sox fans aren't as astute as they think they are...Rice an example of that...and now Epstein.
You same guys were touting the Red Sox pitching staff in the beginning of the year as being something special, and now you are saying it is the GM's fault that these pitchers 'quit', even though there really isn't proof that they did indeed quit, as opposed to just pitching poorly for a small stretch.
So now getting Josh Beckett was dumb because he supposedly quit his last few starts? Give me a freakin break! Back in 2007 you guys were all over him with your pants around your ankles because they just won their second WS, and he the Ace.
Ortiz, Beckett, Schilling...those three acquistions alone so outweigh any of the so called 'poor' ones you guys are giving. It isn't even close.
Not to mention the smaller key parts that he acquired to complement the studs. Guys like Lowell, and the like.
The recognition of Youkilis's talents(that other GM's aren't capable of doing, because they don't understand the importance of OB%), that is what a GM needs to do.
No question, they will hit a lemon or two along the way. Lackey is clearly a lemon. Crawford was being blown all over these boards the last several years, and he too was a guy that made many of you have your pants around the ankles when they got him. Now he had a bad year...and you forget the previous blowing. But I don't.
JD Drew was an average signing. He had a 114 OPS+ in his five years with the Red Sox. THe biggest knocks on him are 1)baseball fans don't understand the importance of OB%, which is Drew's biggest asset, 2)He was often injured and a risk in signing. THat can be classified as a calculated gamble, 3)He got a lot of dough.
Daisuke was a Japanese gamble...somethig the rich teams could afford to do.
Adrian Gonzalez was fine...and will continue to be.
The Ledger reads as follows:
On the Plus side, Ortiz, Beckett, Schilling, Youkilis, Gonzalez...and the young talent like Papelbon, Pedroia and Ellsbury. Plus other many medium parts like Lowell. All helped achieve two World Series titles...and a perenial 90+ win team.
The negative side of the ledger is John Lackey, Crawford(whom Boston fans blew last winter). The others you guys give aren't as negative as you believe.
Also added to the negative ledger by fans in boston is the blame to Epstein for the so called quitting of Lester and Beckett. Lester, their best pitcher the last three years and given the royal treatment by sox fans, and Beckett...the guy whom Red Sox fans blew when they got him and he was their Ace.
Dont forget that last year they won 89 games with Pedrioa out half the year, and Youk out a good chunk himself! 90 this year! If that is bad, and in those circumstances...retarded thinking.
<< <i>Welcome to the city of Champions, where winning during the regular season does not cut it. Red Sox fans are not all retarded, most are very astute. We understand the game very well. I think Epstein wanted out and the same goes for Tito. I could be wrong, but it seems like they burnt out here. That happens in a baseball hotbed. >>
Fair enough...I painted a wide brush.
Though, 89 wins last year with the injuries was pretty darn good. Not too bad this year.
The reasons most gave on here, were indeed retarded...and I stick by that.
Epstein is a very smart man. The Cub fans should be very happy right now. Though, that is a real mess over there.
<< <i>ON second thought, I think this is just another example to show that Red Sox fans are retarded.
These Red Sox fans are the same people that have blown Jim Rice all these years, treating him as if he were Jimmy Foxx, even though Rice never won anything, and he was their third best outfielder from that era. Red Sox fans aren't as astute as they think they are...Rice an example of that...and now Epstein.
You same guys were touting the Red Sox pitching staff in the beginning of the year as being something special, and now you are saying it is the GM's fault that these pitchers 'quit', even though there really isn't proof that they did indeed quit, as opposed to just pitching poorly for a small stretch.
So now getting Josh Beckett was dumb because he supposedly quit his last few starts? Give me a freakin break! Back in 2007 you guys were all over him with your pants around your ankles because they just won their second WS, and he the Ace.
Ortiz, Beckett, Schilling...those three acquistions alone so outweigh any of the so called 'poor' ones you guys are giving. It isn't even close.
Not to mention the smaller key parts that he acquired to complement the studs. Guys like Lowell, and the like.
The recognition of Youkilis's talents(that other GM's aren't capable of doing, because they don't understand the importance of OB%), that is what a GM needs to do.
No question, they will hit a lemon or two along the way. Lackey is clearly a lemon. Crawford was being blown all over these boards the last several years, and he too was a guy that made many of you have your pants around the ankles when they got him. Now he had a bad year...and you forget the previous blowing. But I don't.
JD Drew was an average signing. He had a 114 OPS+ in his five years with the Red Sox. THe biggest knocks on him are 1)baseball fans don't understand the importance of OB%, which is Drew's biggest asset, 2)He was often injured and a risk in signing. THat can be classified as a calculated gamble, 3)He got a lot of dough.
Daisuke was a Japanese gamble...somethig the rich teams could afford to do.
Adrian Gonzalez was fine...and will continue to be.
The Ledger reads as follows:
On the Plus side, Ortiz, Beckett, Schilling, Youkilis, Gonzalez...and the young talent like Papelbon, Pedroia and Ellsbury. Plus other many medium parts like Lowell. All helped achieve two World Series titles...and a perenial 90+ win team.
The negative side of the ledger is John Lackey, Crawford(whom Boston fans blew last winter). The others you guys give aren't as negative as you believe.
Also added to the negative ledger by fans in boston is the blame to Epstein for the so called quitting of Lester and Beckett. Lester, their best pitcher the last three years and given the royal treatment by sox fans, and Beckett...the guy whom Red Sox fans blew when they got him and he was their Ace.
Dont forget that last year they won 89 games with Pedrioa out half the year, and Youk out a good chunk himself! 90 this year! If that is bad, and in those circumstances...retarded thinking. >>
yeah but Drew DIDNT HAV HART!!! or PLAY WIF EMOTIN!!!
Tabe
<< <i>oh I get it, that means we're gay right? Clever. >>
No, JD just plain sucked. He was very good defensively, but he was always hurt and was not a good hitter for that contract.
<< <i>oh I get it, that means we're gay right? Clever. >>
Ok I was being childish and I apoligize for that, but I get a little annoyed listening to people like yourself defend a guy like Drew, and almost more annoyed listening to a guy like Saberman get on his soap box and talk out of his azz about a team he doesnt follow thinking his BS is the way it is when in fact its not.
The Red Sox spent money to win and they were in a position to do just that and any normal baseball fan would realize Sox fans frustration about that ridiculas collapse in September, sorry but in the real world winning matters and having a 'Good Season" in the standings doesnt give you a free pass in regards to players not getting it done. Blame is being spread around and thats the way it is, if anyone cant understand that then I dont know what else to say.
You guys blew, and still blow, Jim Rice. He was part of the worst collapse in history, and he had a very lackluster playoff game vs the yanks. I guess he quit too.
He never won anything, but you never let that stop you from defending him. Which is it? Does winning matter, or not???
Basically, you give the wrong guys too much credit. Now you are giving the wrong guy too much blame. Go figure.
<< <i>Blame is being spread around, and stupid reasoning is being used. What else do you expect from Red Sox fans?
You guys blew, and still blow, Jim Rice. He was part of the worst collapse in history, and he had a very lackluster playoff game vs the yanks. I guess he quit too.
He never won anything, but you never let that stop you from defending him. Which is it? Does winning matter, or not???
Basically, you give the wrong guys too much credit. Now you are giving the wrong guy too much blame. Go figure. >>
Enough of the Jim Rice crap, Sox fans liked him mainly because he was our most consistent player for years and we had not much else to be happy about! And just so you know there is no statue of him around Fenway so stop acting like we worship him.
Epstein certainly is not the entire reason for the Sox collapse, personally I have said its just as much Franconas fault as well as some players that Epstein signed being the reason.
Please since you know the Sox through and through where should the blame go? I blame the players who let themselves go and drank beer and played video games in the clubhouse during crucial games, I blame wasted money on guys who sucked, I blame Francona for not being more stern on these soft players.
<< <i>
<< <i>Blame is being spread around, and stupid reasoning is being used. What else do you expect from Red Sox fans?
You guys blew, and still blow, Jim Rice. He was part of the worst collapse in history, and he had a very lackluster playoff game vs the yanks. I guess he quit too.
He never won anything, but you never let that stop you from defending him. Which is it? Does winning matter, or not???
Basically, you give the wrong guys too much credit. Now you are giving the wrong guy too much blame. Go figure. >>
Enough of the Jim Rice crap, Sox fans liked him mainly because he was our most consistent player for years and we had not much else to be happy about! And just so you know there is no statue of him around Fenway so stop acting like we worship him.
Epstein certainly is not the entire reason for the Sox collapse, personally I have said its just as much Franconas fault as well as some players that Epstein signed being the reason.
Please since you know the Sox through and through where should the blame go? I blame the players who let themselves go and drank beer and played video games in the clubhouse during crucial games, I blame wasted money on guys who sucked, I blame Francona for not being more stern on these soft players. >>
see what I wrote in the Ortiz thread. I don't see how Rice is part of this. Anyway, I do agree that this is not solely a Francona or Theo problem...as I discuss in the Ortiz thread.
Theo did a fine job as GM but I will add these to the "cons" ledger: Bobby Jenks, Julio Lugo, Edgar Renteria, Matt Clement (although I'll admit that may have to do with the head beaning he took), and Mike Cameron.
Also, let's not give Theo too much credit for Beckett and Lowell. Heck, he shouldn't get any credit for them since he was not a Red Sox employee when that trade was made. That was post-Gorilla suit and pre-make up.
<< <i>
<< <i>oh I get it, that means we're gay right? Clever. >>
Ok I was being childish and I apoligize for that, but I get a little annoyed listening to people like yourself defend a guy like Drew, and almost more annoyed listening to a guy like Saberman get on his soap box and talk out of his azz about a team he doesnt follow thinking his BS is the way it is when in fact its not.
The Red Sox spent money to win and they were in a position to do just that and any normal baseball fan would realize Sox fans frustration about that ridiculas collapse in September, sorry but in the real world winning matters and having a 'Good Season" in the standings doesnt give you a free pass in regards to players not getting it done. Blame is being spread around and thats the way it is, if anyone cant understand that then I dont know what else to say. >>
I'm not defending anyone. You asked for someone to show you "the two good years" and I showed you the two good years. That isn't up for debate. He did, in fact, have two very good years with the Red Sox. Sorry you don't agree, and I really don't care that you don't, but facts are facts. He was well above average in defense, base running, and just about every offensive stat...including elite level OBP and contact rates. 2008- 13th in MLB in OPS ahead of D.Wright and just behind Hanley Ramirez...two NL MVP candidates. 2009- virtually the same OPS as Jason Bay, who I don't see any complaints from Red Sox fans from. But I guess if you hit a few more HRs, play lesser defense, but show more outward emotion, you're heroic in Boston. Take the emotion out of it and you'll get a better understanding of his worth for at least two of those years....and unlike a couple of his higher profile teammates during this era, he wasn't, or at least hasn't been either pinched or linked to PEDs.
Really, I don't see the need to blame anybody during Theo's tenure. They won two WS, and were a perennial favorite every year...while playing in the Yankees division.
That would be "job well done."
The fact that you guys are already spoiled about not winning it every year...says that Theo and CO. must have done a darn good job
Von, what unsavory thing am I doing to Rice?
<< <i>Perk,
Really, I don't see the need to blame anybody during Theo's tenure. They won two WS, and were a perennial favorite every year...while playing in the Yankees division.
That would be "job well done."
The fact that you guys are already spoiled about not winning it every year...says that Theo and CO. must have done a darn good job
Von, what unsavory thing am I doing to Rice?
Saber, yes I am a spoiled Boston fan and had HUGE expectations for this year and had my dreams smooshed
Fact is that I am thankful for our success under Theo's regime and wish him well, but the time has come for a shakeup and with that comes the blame game for this years pitiful finish, had we won the World Series then Theo would be getting the thumbs up, yea Im a fairweather fan of GM's, managers and key players I admit it.
<< <i>
<< <i>Perk,
Really, I don't see the need to blame anybody during Theo's tenure. They won two WS, and were a perennial favorite every year...while playing in the Yankees division.
That would be "job well done."
The fact that you guys are already spoiled about not winning it every year...says that Theo and CO. must have done a darn good job
Von, what unsavory thing am I doing to Rice?
Saber, yes I am a spoiled Boston fan and had HUGE expectations for this year and had my dreams smooshed
Fact is that I am thankful for our success under Theo's regime and wish him well, but the time has come for a shakeup and with that comes the blame game for this years pitiful finish, had we won the World Series then Theo would be getting the thumbs up, yea Im a fairweather fan of GM's, managers and key players I admit it. >>
Fair enough
You have to give that management regime a big nod of the cap though for winning two titles with the biggest 'ME' player ever on that team.
Can you imagine if Theo wins one with the Cubs...then he will be the recipient of the all-time biggest blowings ever. But then, he would be getting too much credit
<< <i>Bucky and Boone.
Ummmm Nick...Thought we were boys????????
Here's the one angle I have been thinking about. How much more money will this bring Albert Pujols? Before, the Red Sox were pretty set at 1b and 3b. Now, we hear that Youk might get moved. That opens up a slot for Pujols in Boston. And don't think a new GM wouldn't want to bring in a guy like Albert. And if Ortiz was kept, they could field a lineup with Ellsbury, Pedroia, Pujols, Gonzalez, and Ortiz in the batting order. That makes up for many pitching deficiencies. And since Theo is now with the Cubs, wouldn't that be a great first signing for Theo to sign Albert Pujols from the hated Cardinals? I think that even if the Cardinals manage to resign Albert, this shakeup is going to net him a lot more money as there is more chaos and more of a chance for him to sign with teams that will spend money.
<< <i>Ummmm Nick...Thought we were boys???????? >>
We definitely are Perk, and I have no idea why I injected those into this thread except for my own amusement. Sorry brah.
<< <i>Here's the one angle I have been thinking about. How much more money will this bring Albert Pujols? Before, the Red Sox were pretty set at 1b and 3b. Now, we hear that Youk might get moved. That opens up a slot for Pujols in Boston. >>
Where exactly? Can Pujols play 3B? I doubt Adrian Gonzalez is moving from 1B. But the Sox don't need Pujols and any team that signs him is going to overpay for him in an ARod kind of way (where you have to keep paying him a crazy salary even into the declining years of his career).
Nice letter from Theo there. I guess I'm one of the few Sox fans that appreciates the job he did.