Requesting input regarding ANA Early Bird badges
GregL
Posts: 470 ✭
The ANA board will once again be looking into the possibility of issuing early bird badges at future conventions.
The ANA previously issued "early bird" badges for a nominal fee ($150-200 at the 2009 LA convention) which allowed holders to access the bourse floor prior to public hours. They were eliminated by Larry Shepherd in early 2010. Opinions regarding early bird badges are quite strong both pro and con. Some points on each side include:
Pro
- Offered members the opportunity to access the bourse during less crowded times.
- Modest source of additional revenue for the ANA
Con
- Intrusion into dealer setup time
- Potential loss of revenue for the ANA, as smaller dealers might not purchase a table.
Questions I'd like input on:
1) Should the ANA once again offer early bird badges?
2) What is a reasonable charge if they are offered?
3) What, if any, restrictions on access should be placed on early bird badges? (For example, if dealer setup runs from 8-10am, would it be reasonable to allow early bird access at 9am to still allow some dealer setup time?)
Other comments and thoughts are welcome.
One caution -- please realize that my getting feedback on the forum is only one source of input the ANA Board must consider. So even if there is a strong consensus here, that does not necessarily mean it will be implemented.
Thanks,
Greg
The ANA previously issued "early bird" badges for a nominal fee ($150-200 at the 2009 LA convention) which allowed holders to access the bourse floor prior to public hours. They were eliminated by Larry Shepherd in early 2010. Opinions regarding early bird badges are quite strong both pro and con. Some points on each side include:
Pro
- Offered members the opportunity to access the bourse during less crowded times.
- Modest source of additional revenue for the ANA
Con
- Intrusion into dealer setup time
- Potential loss of revenue for the ANA, as smaller dealers might not purchase a table.
Questions I'd like input on:
1) Should the ANA once again offer early bird badges?
2) What is a reasonable charge if they are offered?
3) What, if any, restrictions on access should be placed on early bird badges? (For example, if dealer setup runs from 8-10am, would it be reasonable to allow early bird access at 9am to still allow some dealer setup time?)
Other comments and thoughts are welcome.
One caution -- please realize that my getting feedback on the forum is only one source of input the ANA Board must consider. So even if there is a strong consensus here, that does not necessarily mean it will be implemented.
Thanks,
Greg
Greg Lyon, ANA Board of Governors 2011-2017 -- The views represented here are my own personal opinions and do not represent those of the American Numismatic Association.
0
Comments
I have no problem with the early birds being allowed.
<< <i>- Potential loss of revenue for the ANA, as smaller dealers might not purchase a table.
>>
I don't buy this, if they want in they find a way in. If they normally do early birds they won't spring for a full table.
I could see limiting the early bird to a couple hours after the dealers are in but setup would have to be extended.
The ANA must take care of the dealers.
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Just saying!
<< <i>Early Bird badges my input NO. Why, let the dealers who buy the tables deal with each other. After all they did buy the table. If someone wants to get in early tell them to buy a table.
The ANA must take care of the dealers. >>
Thats right! The ANA should be all about the dealers (LOL).
If they weren't offered it wouldn't rock by boat in the least. I'm like Switzerland on this point. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
People currently get around the no earlybird rule today by signing up as "working" somebody else's table as one of their 4 included badges. So, I'd also cut down the number of badges included per table to 2. More than 2 is $200 each additional. These ANA show tables cost a lot and it irks me to be paying this price and seeing others getting early access for less money by "selling" their extra badge slots.
I personally think Larry Shepherd was correct on where this decision should be made. It is the executive director's decision, as it's an operational issue associated with a show. The board should not be meddling at this level.
I also like the Kove's idea that only two dealer badges should be given per standard sized dealer table per show and additional badges can be purchased by the dealer equal to the price of the early bird badge ticket. I also believe that lifetime members should be the only class of non-dealer ANA members to be permitted to purchase non-transferrable early bird badges but at a significant discount.
While I am at it, I believe that lifetime members of the ANA has been among the most abused and ignored class of ANA members.
<< <i>While I am at it, I believe that lifetime members of the ANA has been among the most abused and ignored class of ANA members. >>
While I hate to go off-topic, please tell me what could / should be changed regarding life members.
I did have one LM point out to me that when the ANA outsourced the Money Market, LMs lost their discount and had to pay for shipping. I do think that if the ANA is to outsource certain operations, we need to keep in place the pre-outsourcing arrangements in terms of discounts, etc.
Greg
Just three examples for now:
LM's at one time had a hospitality suite where they could go and meet each other. As part of a cost cutting move over 10 years ago, that was eliminated.
LM's had preferential shipping terms (fees) on library items which was eliminated
LM's had discounts in the annual Colorado Springs summer school programs which was also eliminated
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
The Penny Lady®
<< <i>I don't mind having an early bird policy, but I feel the dealers need a couple hours to set up BEFORE any early birds are allowed in - this would also give specific time for dealers to conduct business amongst themselves. So I think they should allow 2 hours for dealer set up, then 2 hours after that for early birds, then the general public is let in. That should satisfy everyone. >>
Makes sense.
Better yet:
8 to 10am = set up (2 hours)
10am to 1pm = early bird (3 hours)
1pm to 5 pm = public entry
5pm to 6pm = first a public lynching of the ANA board followed by serving them as appetizers (this would really be a big revenue booster)
<< <i>I don't mind having an early bird policy, but I feel the dealers need a couple hours to set up BEFORE any early birds are allowed in - this would also give specific time for dealers to conduct business amongst themselves. So I think they should allow 2 hours for dealer set up, then 2 hours after that for early birds, then the general public is let in. That should satisfy everyone. >>
I could agree with that. I'm not a dealer, but you'll find me working for 2 dealers at this show (found out today I was outsourced for 1 1/2 days). I've seen enough in the last 12 years to know set-up can be a frustrating time for many dealers, trying to set up and work with people stopping to make deals before they're ready, then not having time to get away for things they need. I think it would only be fair to give dealers who've paid for tables some time to do some dealing before early birds.
Sure there should be early birds. At antique shows they have them -and really make everyone pay up. There is not a single valid reason not to have them.
<< <i>The ANA board will once again be looking into the possibility of issuing early bird badges at future conventions.
The ANA previously issued "early bird" badges for a nominal fee ($150-200 at the 2009 LA convention) which allowed holders to access the bourse floor prior to public hours. They were eliminated by Larry Shepherd in early 2010. Opinions regarding early bird badges are quite strong both pro and con. Some points on each side include:
Pro
- Offered members the opportunity to access the bourse during less crowded times.
- Modest source of additional revenue for the ANA
Con
- Intrusion into dealer setup time
- Potential loss of revenue for the ANA, as smaller dealers might not purchase a table.
Questions I'd like input on:
1) Should the ANA once again offer early bird badges?
2) What is a reasonable charge if they are offered?
3) What, if any, restrictions on access should be placed on early bird badges? (For example, if dealer setup runs from 8-10am, would it be reasonable to allow early bird access at 9am to still allow some dealer setup time?)
Other comments and thoughts are welcome.
One caution -- please realize that my getting feedback on the forum is only one source of input the ANA Board must consider. So even if there is a strong consensus here, that does not necessarily mean it will be implemented.
Thanks,
Greg >>
With everything going on, Early Bird badges are what you really consider Board member leadership?
To quote Seth Meyers and Amy Poehler....."really?"
<< <i>
<< <i>The ANA board will once again be looking into the possibility of issuing early bird badges at future conventions.
The ANA previously issued "early bird" badges for a nominal fee ($150-200 at the 2009 LA convention) which allowed holders to access the bourse floor prior to public hours. They were eliminated by Larry Shepherd in early 2010. Opinions regarding early bird badges are quite strong both pro and con. Some points on each side include:
Pro
- Offered members the opportunity to access the bourse during less crowded times.
- Modest source of additional revenue for the ANA
Con
- Intrusion into dealer setup time
- Potential loss of revenue for the ANA, as smaller dealers might not purchase a table.
Questions I'd like input on:
1) Should the ANA once again offer early bird badges?
2) What is a reasonable charge if they are offered?
3) What, if any, restrictions on access should be placed on early bird badges? (For example, if dealer setup runs from 8-10am, would it be reasonable to allow early bird access at 9am to still allow some dealer setup time?)
Other comments and thoughts are welcome.
One caution -- please realize that my getting feedback on the forum is only one source of input the ANA Board must consider. So even if there is a strong consensus here, that does not necessarily mean it will be implemented.
Thanks,
Greg >>
With everything going on, Early Bird badges are what you really consider Board member leadership?
To quote Seth Meyers and Amy Poehler....."really?" >>
There are enough board members, and enough problems, that I see no reason that Greg shouldn't have some focus on this.
If you bother to pay attention to what is going on, this was a big split issue for many folks and it SHOULD be taken care of, one way or another.
Yes....I have seen your recent posts and know you are very much against the current board so I have a feeling that you would attack no matter what they did/do
As for the OP - I am not a LM, just a normal member. I have never used an early bird (thought about it, but I am cheap) but I do like the idea of equality.
So, before I can answer the question honestly, I have to know: Who is the show for? Dealers or collectors? My answer will vary depending on what that answer is.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>As for the OP - I am not a LM, just a normal member. I have never used an early bird (thought about it, but I am cheap) but I do like the idea of equality.
So, before I can answer the question honestly, I have to know: Who is the show for? Dealers or collectors? My answer will vary depending on what that answer is. >>
Bochiman, obviously, you can't have a successful coin show without both, so why can't we focus on looking for solutions that make both dealers and collectors happy? Yes, of course it's very difficult to please everyone, so there will have to be a little give and take on both sides. But if we focus on compromises like (as I mentioned above) having table dealers set up hours first, then early bird admissions after that, I think we can achieve more unanimity between collectors and dealers.
Also, perhaps reviewing and instituting some of the successful/popular policies of other shows like Baltimore and FUN, including cost of early bird admissions, hours, cost of table fees, cost of dealer table share fees, etc. would also help increase the success of the ANA shows.
The Penny Lady®
<< <i>I'm a dealer (we met in Sacramento) and I strongly oppose early bird badges. Pre-show hours should be for paid table holders (table holders that seem to pay an arm and a leg at these events). Once the show opens, all non-tableholders should be treated equally.
People currently get around the no earlybird rule today by signing up as "working" somebody else's table as one of their 4 included badges. So, I'd also cut down the number of badges included per table to 2. More than 2 is $200 each additional. These ANA show tables cost a lot and it irks me to be paying this price and seeing others getting early access for less money by "selling" their extra badge slots.
I personally think Larry Shepherd was correct on where this decision should be made. It is the executive director's decision, as it's an operational issue associated with a show. The board should not be meddling at this level. >>
I agree with you that Larry made the right decision to eliminate early birds allowing the dealers time to actually get set up without the public. However I cannot disagree with you more regarding the number of badges. CSNS does that and it has caused us significant strife. If they want to do anything, they should require companies to prove a person is an employee to get beyond a certain number of badges. At the ANA we had 10-12 people behind our table, ALL of whom are employees of our company and are on payroll etc. To handle our giant island, we needed a lot of people. If a company has 1 table and only 3 employees... they should only get 3 badges.
I think that two hours of set-up time should suffice. After that, let everyone in.
And while we're on the subject of shows, I have a pet peeve that I'll address. Currently, table location is assigned based on "stars", which are essentially a measure of how much the firm has done for the ANA. I have no problem with the concept, but there's a major flaw in the implementation. Currently, it doesn't matter how many tables the dealer is taking, which means that if there are two firms with an equal star count, and if one of them takes 8 tables and the other takes only one, the larger firm gets 8 times as much benefit as the other. Clearly, that's unfair to the smaller dealer. (It's also wasteful to the ANA, because they could be selling premium tables for more than they're currently getting.) In my opinion, when ranking dealers by star count, the number of stars should be divided by the number of tables taken by the firm.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>As for the OP - I am not a LM, just a normal member. I have never used an early bird (thought about it, but I am cheap) but I do like the idea of equality.
So, before I can answer the question honestly, I have to know: Who is the show for? Dealers or collectors? My answer will vary depending on what that answer is. >>
Bochiman, obviously, you can't have a successful coin show without both, so why can't we focus on looking for solutions that make both dealers and collectors happy? Yes, of course it's very difficult to please everyone, so there will have to be a little give and take on both sides. But if we focus on compromises like (as I mentioned above) having table dealers set up hours first, then early bird admissions after that, I think we can achieve more unanimity between collectors and dealers.
Also, perhaps reviewing and instituting some of the successful/popular policies of other shows like Baltimore and FUN, including cost of early bird admissions, hours, cost of table fees, cost of dealer table share fees, etc. would also help increase the success of the ANA shows. >>
Charmy, I don't think that any 1 solution will please 100% of both sides. You mention as much. That's why I asked who is it for. The responses we get on the board seem somewhat (not always) polarized based on whether someone views themselves as a collector or dealer.
From a dealer side, which I am not, nor have I been, I could see a desire to have as low a cost to a table, as possible, and to have the opportunity to set up, in peace, and also to shop other dealers before collectors. I can also see where a small vendor (say 1-2 people) may feel a bit slighted at paying the same price and getting 2 badges as those that get 4 badges. Or those that pay and get 4 badges for actual people working their booth but smaller dealers use 2 and sell 2 badges and those extra 2 badges have people going around during setup and buying things while the actual dealers are still setting up....etc etc etc.
On the other side, the collector side, sometimes folks may be able to go early but have to leave early (work/other things that pop up). Would be nice to be able to see. Also, from a collector's side, I don't know any of us that WANT to pay additional markups just because Dealer A brought something but Dealer B (and maybe Dealers C, D, E, etc) were in there before us, saw it, bought it, and started making it up each time. Sure, dealer's deserve to make a living (I know some board members disagree, but I don't), but for those of us that actually collect and like nice coins, we don't want to pay too many additional markups...particularly if there were a chance that WE could have found it at the original dealer's table if we had been able to go in same time as dealers were walking around....
Now, if your proposal was just for setting up, and settling accounts without new purchases, then I would 100% agree. If the shows were more about dealers, then I would still 100% agree with you as well. If they are about collectors at all, then I am sorry, but I feel that collectors should have equal footing for purchasing in that case as well....and not be at the end of a long line of markups JUST at that show....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>... It is the executive director's decision, as it's an operational issue associated with a show. The board should not be meddling at this level. >>
This.
<< <i>I don't mind having an early bird policy, but I feel the dealers need a couple hours to set up BEFORE any early birds are allowed in >>
I strongly agree that those who pay for tables should have some time to set up BEFORE any early birds (or anyone else) are allowed in.
I am not looking for dedicated time to conduct dealer to dealer business, I just want to be able to put my inventory out and set up lamps and stuff so that I am ready to conduct business when the show begins.
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't mind having an early bird policy, but I feel the dealers need a couple hours to set up BEFORE any early birds are allowed in >>
I strongly agree that those who pay for tables should have some time to set up BEFORE any early birds (or anyone else) are allowed in.
I am not looking for dedicated time to conduct dealer to dealer business, I just want to be able to put my inventory out and set up lamps and stuff so that I am ready to conduct business when the show begins. >>
I agree with CCU and for the same reasons.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
I am not looking for dedicated time to conduct dealer to dealer business, I just want to be able to put my inventory out and set up lamps and stuff so that I am ready to conduct business when the show begins.
Whatever you want to do, many other dealers with tables are still going to start working the floor as soon as set up begins. And some dealers without tables will still find a way in, usually by getting badges on other dealers' tables. Bottom line is that if you don't want to do any business during set up, tell people to come back later. Happens all the time.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Bottom line is that if you don't want to do any business during set up, tell people to come back later. Happens all the time. >>
I want time to set up so I am ready for the show to start, and then can compete for coins on an equal footing with early bird guys (which includes a lot of vest pocket dealers and some collectors) who do not have a table to set up.
You may have a point. I suppose it depends on how effective the ANA can be in keeping tag-along dealers off the contracts of legitimately tabled dealers.
Anyway, this is all nearly moot if the ANA continues to run pre-shows, which I believe is a given for the next couple of years.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm a dealer (we met in Sacramento) and I strongly oppose early bird badges. Pre-show hours should be for paid table holders (table holders that seem to pay an arm and a leg at these events). Once the show opens, all non-tableholders should be treated equally.
People currently get around the no earlybird rule today by signing up as "working" somebody else's table as one of their 4 included badges. So, I'd also cut down the number of badges included per table to 2. More than 2 is $200 each additional. These ANA show tables cost a lot and it irks me to be paying this price and seeing others getting early access for less money by "selling" their extra badge slots.
I personally think Larry Shepherd was correct on where this decision should be made. It is the executive director's decision, as it's an operational issue associated with a show. The board should not be meddling at this level. >>
I agree with you that Larry made the right decision to eliminate early birds allowing the dealers time to actually get set up without the public. However I cannot disagree with you more regarding the number of badges. CSNS does that and it has caused us significant strife. If they want to do anything, they should require companies to prove a person is an employee to get beyond a certain number of badges. At the ANA we had 10-12 people behind our table, ALL of whom are employees of our company and are on payroll etc. To handle our giant island, we needed a lot of people. If a company has 1 table and only 3 employees... they should only get 3 badges. >>
I never bought an early bird badge that was actually worth it. Most dealers weren't open and/or ready during most of the early bird time and many of the remainder were too busy dealing with other dealers to pay early birds any attention. At least I felt I made a worthwhile donation to charity as the Baltimore early bird money used to go to Children's Hospital.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The ANA board will once again be looking into the possibility of issuing early bird badges at future conventions.
The ANA previously issued "early bird" badges for a nominal fee ($150-200 at the 2009 LA convention) which allowed holders to access the bourse floor prior to public hours. They were eliminated by Larry Shepherd in early 2010. Opinions regarding early bird badges are quite strong both pro and con. Some points on each side include:
Pro
- Offered members the opportunity to access the bourse during less crowded times.
- Modest source of additional revenue for the ANA
Con
- Intrusion into dealer setup time
- Potential loss of revenue for the ANA, as smaller dealers might not purchase a table.
Questions I'd like input on:
1) Should the ANA once again offer early bird badges?
2) What is a reasonable charge if they are offered?
3) What, if any, restrictions on access should be placed on early bird badges? (For example, if dealer setup runs from 8-10am, would it be reasonable to allow early bird access at 9am to still allow some dealer setup time?)
Other comments and thoughts are welcome.
One caution -- please realize that my getting feedback on the forum is only one source of input the ANA Board must consider. So even if there is a strong consensus here, that does not necessarily mean it will be implemented.
Thanks,
Greg >>
With everything going on, Early Bird badges are what you really consider Board member leadership?
To quote Seth Meyers and Amy Poehler....."really?" >>
There are enough board members, and enough problems, that I see no reason that Greg shouldn't have some focus on this.
If you bother to pay attention to what is going on, this was a big split issue for many folks and it SHOULD be taken care of, one way or another.
Yes....I have seen your recent posts and know you are very much against the current board so I have a feeling that you would attack no matter what they did/do
As for the OP - I am not a LM, just a normal member. I have never used an early bird (thought about it, but I am cheap) but I do like the idea of equality.
So, before I can answer the question honestly, I have to know: Who is the show for? Dealers or collectors? My answer will vary depending on what that answer is. >>
There are enough board members, and enough problems, that I see no reason that Greg shouldn't have some focus on this.
If you bother to pay attention to what is going on, this was a big split issue for many folks and it SHOULD be taken care of, one way or another.
Yes....I have seen your recent posts and know you are very much against the current board so I have a feeling that you would attack no matter what they did/do
Nope, I just think that Mr. Lyon appears, IMHO, to purposely be avoiding two simple questions I have placed to him, both of which he answered would quiet me.
In an organization bereft with problems, that a Director thinks "Early birds" are a key issue....well, that to me is proof that Greg Lyon was likely very fortunate to have run in an uncontested election. If it happens again but with Laura to the mix, I think he'll be in the audience for Board meetings after that.
Just answer the two questions, please Director Lyon?
1. Will you propose and support a bylaw change which would allow former ANA employees to run in the next election if they leave their position, a year and a day before the next election?
2. What is so difficult about being ANA President or VP that it is necessary to have previously held Board membership? There is no such qualification for President or V.P. of the United States that either have held elective office prior, so what makes the ANA positions more important that they require holding prior office.
Director Lyon, if you answer these questions, you will hear little more from me.
I don't give a damn! If this is the greatest issue facing the hobby, and to wit, the ANA, we have nothing to worry about. Unfortunately, we have plenty of real problems like counterfeit coins, coin doctors, coin show thefts and hold-ups, etc.
<< <i>Here's the input from the casual collector, like myself:
I don't give a damn! If this is the greatest issue facing the hobby, and to wit, the ANA, we have nothing to worry about. Unfortunately, we have plenty of real problems like counterfeit coins, coin doctors, coin show thefts and hold-ups, etc. >>
you forgot bad food
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>As for the OP - I am not a LM, just a normal member. I have never used an early bird (thought about it, but I am cheap) but I do like the idea of equality.
So, before I can answer the question honestly, I have to know: Who is the show for? Dealers or collectors? My answer will vary depending on what that answer is. >>
“Who is the show for”, is a reasonable question. Dealers don't like the "Early Bird" and collectors do. Dealers think the "Early Bird" interferes with them doing “dealer to dealer” transaction.
Recommendation, set up time should be for set up only! No transactions of any form should be allowed. If dealers don’t want the “Early Bird” passes then no “dealer to dealer” transaction should be allowed during set up time either. Anyone caught violating should be removed from the show with forfeiting all fees paid.
The ANA should be concerned with having an equal playing field for all, this idea of allowing the dealers to have first pick before the show is even open has always been unfair and shows the bias that Larry Shepherd had towards the collectors anyway you want to look at.
If the show is for the dealers, then ask your question to that group only.
I think you should charge $125 ( hey its the ANA
I think you should allow them to enter the show at 9 am ( to allow time for dealers to set up at 8 am).
I think you should allow the public in at 11:30 am.
Earlybird collectors mean more competition for nice coins, on both the buy and sell side, which means better ( higher) prices.
If I am a dealer with nice coins I would welcome more people looking at my coins early on.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
It is an excellent revenue generator for show and it gives people an option of paying a premium for the privilege of being in a show first and getting "first shot" at material they would otherwise miss out on if they attended during public hours.
Dealers will find a way to get into a show early regardless of the rules and at the least charging a fee for that privilege is better for the show promotion than getting nothing in return. The truth is coin shows do not have a foolproof method of keeping aspiring early entrants out. If earlybird badges are not available people simply bum an extra badge/ ribbon off of a colleague with a table. Doing that gets them in at the same time as the table dealers and the show gets no additional revenue.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>Recommendation, set up time should be for set up only! No transactions of any form should be allowed. If dealers don’t want the “Early Bird” passes then no “dealer to dealer” transaction should be allowed during set up time either. Anyone caught violating should be removed from the show with forfeiting all fees paid. >>
Good luck trying to enforce that. Coin dealers who set up are not plentiful and draconian rules only discourage dealers from taking tables. Attempt to throw enough dealers out and your show will no longer exist. It's not like there are not enough coin shows out there.
Your show won't let me deal during setup? I'll meet up with my contacts before setup in my hotel room or in the building lobby. What are you going to do, send your coin show police break into my hotel room and break up our transaction?
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"