1909 VDB MS66RB DDO-002 (FS-01-1909-1102)??

JoeV

I was reading my Cherrypicker's guide and looking at my 1909 VDB (NGC cert # 2547695-001) and noticed it might be DDO-002. Hopefully the picture I attached comes up but if not here are some of the diagnostics: there is doubling on the "B" and "R" of Liberty, there appears to be a die clash (line) below the chin but I can't tell if the date is thicker than usual or not.

Any opinions or help would be apprciated.

JoeV

Okay here are a couple pictures. They are not as clear as I would like but I hope they help.

roadrunner

Not enough resolution or size in that photo for me to tell anything. A die clash from the chin ought to be pretty easy to indentify in hand with a 10X glass.

roadrunner

TheRegulator

Looks like both loops of B and the loop of R in LIBERTY are filled which would be consistent with a later die state of DDO-002. Check the tail of the first 9 in the date for Class II separation.

Looks to be a very pretty coin.

bolivarshagnasty

JoeV, First, very nice coin. I don't believe the die chip is consistent with the die chip on the 1102's. The first 9 doesn't exhibit the doubling that I've seen, and the letters in LIBERTY don't seem to be heavy. I have some close-ups of my example in the link below to my set. Check it out for yourself. Regards, Mel

illini420

I also think that this is not the FS-1102 doubled die. Sure it has the die chips and clashing on the obverse, but you must also have the thickness in the first 9 of 1909. When I first started looking for this DDO, I bought probably half a dozen 1909 VDBs that I thought were the FS-1102 because I saw the obverse clash and the die chips in LIBERTY... however, none of them were the DDO as they didn't have the doubling in that first 9 of 1909. Another diagnostic that should be present in an FS-1102 is clashing on the reverse near the C of CENT. Still a pretty nice looking VDB!

By the way, I learned the hard way that NGC doesn't attribute the FS-1102 doubled die obverse... I found one unattributed in an NGC MS64RD holder and I thought I'd get it attributed by NGC so I took it to the NGC table at the last Long Beach show, told them what I wanted to do and they were very helpful in helping me fill out the submission forms and getting my order together. A few weeks (and around $35 later), I get my coin back with a sticker on it saying that the variety isn't recognized by NGC... wish the girls at the NGC table in Long Beach had told me that and saved me the time and money!!!!

drwstr123

The die characteristics can be present, but without the thickness of the date it will not certify.
Just ask Watersport.

JoeV

Thank you for all your input, much appreciated!

WaterSport

Sorry, But not by the picks. The 0 in date also needs to be elongated and there should also be a clash line under Lincoln's chin to his chest. The R die chip need to be in the crotch of the R or a tab bit more south in the R shall we say.

WS

drwstr123

As WS said...here's the clash:

illini420

<< <i>As WS said...here's the clash:
>>



Again, please note that there are several 1909 VDB cents out there with that same clash that are not DDO #2 coins. There are even VDBs that exist with that clash AND with the die chips in the B and R of LIBERTY that are NOT the DDO... here's one that I think is an example of having many of the diagnostics but just isn't the DDO:

LINK





As you can see, that one clearly has the clash under the chin and the die chips in LIBERTY. However, the coin doesn't have the thickness in the date... particularly in the first 9 of 1909... also, the reverse die clash near the C of CENT isn't present. Accordingly, I don't think this one would make it into the FS-1102 holder, even though I have seen the grading companies make mistakes on this variety in the past.

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For a nice example of the DDO #2 look at the photos below. The first photo shows the obverse diagnositcs of filled in letters on LIBERTY and the clash under the chin, but take particular note of the thick numbers in the date, especially that first 9. That is what you need to see for the DDO #2. Also, in looking at the reverse photo, check out the reverse die clash that is an important and often overlooked diagnostic for the variety. The clash is seen going through the bottom of the C of CENT down to the N of UNITED.

WaterSport

illini420 you da man!! I did not know the clash existed on other non DDO examples. Thanks for educating me (us)

WS

illini420

<< <i>illini420 you da man!! I did not know the clash existed on other non DDO examples. Thanks for educating me (us)

WS >>




Unfortunately, I didn't learn that until I had bought 6-8 examples where I thought I had cherrypicked the DDO #2, based only off the filled in LIBERTY and the clash under Lincoln's chin. Luckily, I came across someone who told me about the reverse clash diagnostic and showed me a good image of the thicker date that is necessary before I submitted my non-DDOs for variety attributions... that would have been costly!

That said, I have seen a couple examples in attributed holders that weren't really the DDO #2 so it appears a few of these have sneaked through in the past.

joefro

Thanks for the informative post everyone!

drwstr123

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, the point being the neck clash,
although appearing on other non-ddos, is necessary for the ddo in question.

coinman2009

Glad to catch this post! This is the main variety I Hunt for!! First off I'd suggest checking Conecas Site, They list a Stage B that only has the Top Of The B In Liberty Filled In, No Die Clashes Present On Stage B!! The Bottom Of The B Gets Filled In In Stage C As Well As The Die Clashes, The Top Of Letter R Gets Partially Filled In Stage D. The Coin That Started The Post Isn't The DDO#2, As Mentioned Earlier, There Are Coins That Resemble The Marker's, But Not Exactly The DDO, I've Got Tricked By A Few! The Die Clash On The Reverse Is A Dead GiveAway, I've CherryPicked One Out Of A Roll By Seeing The Rev. Clash!! New Here, Been on The Lincoln Cent Resource Forum For Awhile, Check Out My Profile Album There If You Can, It's All #2 DDO's!! Stages B,C,And D. I've Sent Three Of Mine Out To Be Included In A Book. My Best Is A 64Rd Unattributated P.C.G.S. I Got This Coin From WaterSport That Has Already Commented. I'll See If I Can Figure Out How To Post Pics! Enjoy!

WaterSport

Saw this and it seemed appropriate to post.

WS

Teletrade MS 66 1909 VDB, with Chips, but NOT a DDO.