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Small or Large * Half Dime?

bronzematbronzemat Posts: 2,642 ✭✭✭✭✭
I purchased a 1838 ND Half Dime and I am not sure which star variety it is, I paid Large Star. These are the seller photos and the debris is from the cardboard flip.

Thanks for any help.

image

Comments

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Large
  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yep, large.
    The small ones look like little sticks crisscrossed.
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  • bronzematbronzemat Posts: 2,642 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks. Coin looks so much nicer in-hand, bought it as XF40 but looks more XF45, photos make the coin look worse.
  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,794 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Agree. Large stars. But I thought that the small stars variety came either with a mushy strike/stars or with something going on in the right obverse fields. I am sorry but I am going from memory. I don't recall the small stars being all that well defined, but it may be just my small stars that is that way.

    Tom

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  • bronzematbronzemat Posts: 2,642 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was gonna ask if it is normal for 1838 SL HD having them or if its some various variety I dont know about.

    In hand it does have what you see. It isnt rim dents.
  • MrHalfDimeMrHalfDime Posts: 3,440 ✭✭✭✭
    Your 1838 Liberty Seated half dime is decidedly not an example of the so-called "Small Stars" variety, as others have correctly pointed out. The moniker "Small Stars" is actually a misnomer, which tends to mislead many collectors when trying to attribute their coins. As Walkerguy21D very succinctly states, the stars on a properly attributed "Small Stars" variety look very much like 'little sticks crisscrossed', or perhaps more like asterisks (*) than stars. This well known variety would have been better served had it been described as "heavily lapped stars", as that more properly describes what happened to the obverse die.

    The obverse die used on both the Valentine V1 and V2 marriages for 1838, together known as the so-called "Small Stars" variety, began its life with significant die rust, or spawling, in the area of Miss Liberty's left arm holding the pole, both inside and outside of the pole. Early die state examples of the V1 show significant raised rough areas in the field resulting from the rust pitting of the die. This obverse die (and later the reverse die, as well) also became significantly clashed in the area of Miss Liberty's arm and above the date. Attempts to remove the die rust and clashing, by heavily lapping the die, resulted in some success, but also removed much of the relief of the stars, particularly on stars 1-7 on the left. To make matters even worse for those attempting to attribute this variety, the reverse die was later changed, retaining the same obverse die, resulting in a new die marriege: Valentine's V2. Later die states of the V1 exhibit a die crack at the top of A2 (first A of AMERICA) to the rim, and another die crack from S1 to the wreath to H(ALF) of the denomination. A die chip appears in wreath, below ER, looking very much like a berry. A significant die crack later developed on the obverse die, from the rim to star 13, and into the field. Your coin exhibits none of these diagnostics. The new reverse die, used on the V2, remained essentially without deterioration for the remainder of its useful life.

    While we have agreed that your coin is not an example of the "Small Stars" variety (neither V1 or V2), we have not yet identified just which variety it is. I see two significant attributes on the obverse which might help us to identify the die marriage, the rim cud from K3 to K7 pointed out by Realone, and the strongly repunched star 9. None of the fourteen die marriages described by Valentine would seem to agree with these diagnostics, but that does not necessarily eliminate them from consideration. Also, there are a few additional 'varieties' not listed by Valentine which could better describe your coin. My first guess would be V8, which does develop an obverse rim cud much like this, although not described by Valentine, but I will need additional time to make a positive attribution.
    They that can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
  • bronzematbronzemat Posts: 2,642 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks for the info, would be great to know the variety. I really know nothing about varieties of seated coinage. I also have a 1854 O & a 1860 H10.
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  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,794 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thank you

    Tom

  • bronzematbronzemat Posts: 2,642 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Where did you photo go, just red x now? >>



    ?? works for me.
  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Images to go with MrHalfDime's answer are at:
    http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/CoinDetail.aspx?s=4318
  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks MrHalfDime - I'm going to take a closer look at my small and large stars varieties tonight!
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  • MrHalfDimeMrHalfDime Posts: 3,440 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm still not positive about the attribution of your half dime; it is very difficult to attribute a coin using only computer images. It appears to have the obverse die of Valentine's V8, in late die state, although Valentine never mentions the rim cud at K3 - K7. I have a couple of examples of the 1838 V8 in late die state, which exhibit a similar rim cud, one at K5 - K6, and a later die state with the rim cud extending from K3 - K7. However, I cannot be sure about the reverse die, and therefore I cannot be sure about the marriage. The V8 develops a die crack from the rim to the left upright of M1 (M of AMERICA),and another from the rim to the right side of the top of I2 (I of AMERICA). I cannot see these die cracks on your coin, but it might be because of the cardboard dust in the holder, or just the dark color of the coin. Perhaps when you receive the coin you can see if these die cracks are present. So for now, my best guess is V8.
    They that can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
  • Small stars look like starfish, large stars look like sheriff's badges.

    Steve
    Collecting XF+ toned Barber dimes
  • bronzematbronzemat Posts: 2,642 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I'm still not positive about the attribution of your half dime; it is very difficult to attribute a coin using only computer images. It appears to have the obverse die of Valentine's V8, in late die state, although Valentine never mentions the rim cud at K3 - K7. I have a couple of examples of the 1838 V8 in late die state, which exhibit a similar rim cud, one at K5 - K6, and a later die state with the rim cud extending from K3 - K7. However, I cannot be sure about the reverse die, and therefore I cannot be sure about the marriage. The V8 develops a die crack from the rim to the left upright of M1 (M of AMERICA),and another from the rim to the right side of the top of I2 (I of AMERICA). I cannot see these die cracks on your coin, but it might be because of the cardboard dust in the holder, or just the dark color of the coin. Perhaps when you receive the coin you can see if these die cracks are present. So for now, my best guess is V8. >>



    Sent you a PM but ill reply publicly too, both of those die cracks are present.

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