Is this a Die clash or PMD (caution large pictures)

Rogerd

I have looked at this and I can not tell if the letters are raised or recessed and have you ever seen a die clash like this if it is that. I pulled this out of a obw roll. Thanks

fcloud

if incuse it is probably PMD.

19Lyds

<< <i>if incuse it is probably PMD. >>

Agree.

howards

PMD. Clashes will only show in the fields, not in the design.

Aegis3

I'm gonna be brave and probably disagree. I think there's a good chance that it's a strike through some struck thin layer of metal, maybe from a lamination or something. Do you have a picture of the reverse?

Bigrig52

Put in a vise and squezed together

coinman420

<< <i>PMD. Clashes will only show in the fields, not in the design. >>



i respectfully disagree.

coinman420

the OP`s first and fourth pic look incuse. the second and third pic look raised to me. photos can play tricks on the eyes.

rogerd, which is it???

Rogerd

I have added a picture of the reverse and I have looked closer using a fine point on a wooden toothpick and it appears that the letters are recessed, so I am guessing that it is not a die clash. I am curious as to how it could have happened since this coin came out of an obw roll so not much opportunity to have contact with the public.

stealer

You can see in the second picture by following the direction of lighting that the letters are incuse.

frnklnlvr

I found a LMC that has a very similar anomaly just the other day. I can't tell if mine's an error or PMD either. Will get some pics and post them in a new thread later today.

johnny9434

pmd. i dont like it

Aegis3

With the reverse pic, I'm more confident in my answer. I do think it is a strike through by some sort of thin, struck metal.

The only other possibility I see is some glue, but I really don't see any discoloration or transition from coin to glue. I'm thus discounting this.

It doesn't look like a hammer or vise job; there is no damage at all to the reverse.

errormaven

Because the incuse, mirror-image letters are located on the highest relief area on Lincoln's head, they are almost certainly contact marks from another cent. The fact that they fade out as the relief gets lower reinforces this diagnosis. -- Mike Diamond

CaptHenway

Looks like there might be a small, partial indent on Lincoln's collar, which would eliminate the possibility of it being struck thru a struck fragment.

lava

Whether it is PMD depends in large part on one simple question -- what the heck is PMD?

I think I'm having a senior moment.

I'm sure the answer will make me feel like a simpleton, a phrase I've heard a thousand times, and probably my speciality.

Wolf359

Post Mint Damage

errormaven

PMD is post-mint damage. Damage that occurred outside the Mint. Since this sort of damage could just as well have occurred inside the Mint, a better term is "PSD" (post-strike damage).

howards

<< <i>

<< <i>PMD. Clashes will only show in the fields, not in the design. >>



i respectfully disagree.

>>



Will you please explain how a clash can be seen within design elements? The highest point on a die (assuming we are not talking about something with an incuse design like Pratt's gold) are the fields. The design elements are incuse on the die resulting in raised elements on the coin.

When dies clash, the fields, being the highest point, will be the first to make contact. In order to make contact with the design elements incused into a die, the clashing die would have to have raised elements on it to poke into those design elements. While I agree that it is possible for that to occur, there are very few US coin designs with incuse elements (perhaps some of the recent designs are like that, I haven't kept track of all the moderns).

astrorat

<< <i>

<< <i>PMD. Clashes will only show in the fields, not in the design. >>



i respectfully disagree. >>

However, when dies clash it is the surface of the dies that clash, not the recessed design elements. Thus the only evidence of a die clash will be found on the metal surfaces that clash; the fields. Thus clash marks will never appear on the raised design elements of a coin. Now, if there is something onto which the dies strike that damages (leaves its impression) on the recessed areas of the die, then evidence of that damage can be seen on the raised design elements of the coin. But, that's not a clashed die, it's a damaged die.

errormaven

Low-lying areas of the design are quite vulnerable to die clashes, for the same reason that the field is. This part of the design is only slightly recessed on the die face. It takes only slight penetration of one die into the other to generate these clash marks. That's why you often find clash marks on Roosevelt's nose and the crease of his neck.

CaptHenway

The fields of the dies are not flat. They are slightly convex, which makes them closer together near the center of the design than out at the rim.

When two such dies come together, and one incused design is smaller than the opposing incused design, the edges of the smaller design can contact the recessed design of the opposing die. I have seen many Washington quarters with head outline clash marks in the eagle's wings. Look at all the Morgan dollars with "E" clash marks below the eagle.

TD

oldsubguru

While the majority of die clashes will be seen in the field, clash marks are not restricted to just that area. The dies are convex and the clash marks left are dependent on the height of the area between two curved shaped structures and where they meet. With addition of the design elements to the die, the curvature's face is not uniform and the variations in the height will dictate what parts of those curved structures will meet.

However, it is normally the field or areas close to the field's height that create the clash mark. Example, the TY from LIBERTY (obverse die) seen clashes into bays 1, 2, 3 or sometimes 4 on the reverse die. The clash mark is not the letters TY, but the indented area surrounding the letters which was caused by the obverse field surrounding those letters. A negative area, unless it is near field height, will not cause a clash mark.

BJ Neff