Two 1600s'ish coins I need help IDing

Pokermandude

Both came from a much larger unattributed collection/lot I bought recently. Most of the other coins were 1600's-1800's German States, a few other European coins.

Managed to attribute most of the others without too much trouble These two have me stumped though! Any help would be much appreciated.

I'm thinking the second one is some sort of token/medal. Couldn't find any significance to what appears to be the date on it (20 June, 1639?).

syl

The first one is before 1600, I think. I would have to guess Hungary, Italian States, Austrian Sates or German States. I don't think that it's "religious" enough to be Vatican cities.

The 2nd one I'm pretty sure is German States and one of the "Saxe" cities. From Saxe'Altenburg on through Saxe-Weimar .. .they all produced coins like this, usually upon the death of someone in the royal family. Some of those City-States have coins/fonts very similar to yours and both Wilhelm IV and V were involved.. I think that the Obverse(?) is demonstrative of someone ascending to heaven upon death. I looked through all my 17th Century books and a German Sates book that goes back to 1500 with no luck with positive ID. Sorry

lordmarcovan

I agree- the first indeed looks earlier than 1600.

The bishop on it (St. Rupert?) makes me think of Salzburg. I see the word CIVITA... on the reverse, so you're probably going to have the name of the mint city right there.

I came to the computer without my specs on and am having trouble lookin' at the screen right now, so I'll have to return for another look later.

lordmarcovan

Ah, yes. I can see now.

CIVITATIS CONST on the first one told me it might be from Constance (Konstanz). Sure enough, when I Wikipedia-ed it, the shield in their coat of arms sort of looks like a match. My Krause volumes probably won't be much help here, though, since from the style of lettering, I'd judge that piece to be from the 1500s or even late 1400s, perhaps.

The second one appears to be from Saxony. (Edit-) No, I think syl is right- it's gonna be Saxe-something, but there were a lot of those. And a lot of Johann Wilhelms. Yours appears to name a Johann Wilhelm the Fifth (IOH WILH V). Saxe-Altenburg had a Johann Wilhelm IV from 1602-1632. This coin seems to have been struck around 1639? (Or that would be when the guy died, anyway.) And like syl said, it looks like one of those "death" thalers, commemorating the duke or monarch's death. I'll have to scratch my head a bit longer before I can give much more of an answer. Is it dollar (thaler) size?

(Oh, and question number two would be if you wanna sell it or swap it, but first we gotta ID it, huh.)

BTW, this must have been one heck of a cool lot!

syl

My guess for one of the "saxe's" was right:
http://www.ngccoin.com/poplookup/WorldCoinPrices.aspx?category=184723&worldcoinid=410030

ajaan

Linky

syl

Thanks, Don. I don't read German, but I think that the coin commemorates the death of one of Johann Wilhelm's (IV) children .. the next in line for the throne. It appears that he was 8 years, 9 months old when he died. Googling, they had a child born in 1630 (Johann Wilhelm) who died in 1639, but not on June 20. Oh well, how accurate were calenders then? Maybe he died the month before and they struck the coin on June 20.

Brett510

I believe the first coin is a 1/2 batzen from Konstanz (Constanz), Germany. Early 17th century. 22mm in diameter, St. Conrad. Coin reads: S Conrad Et S Const, Moneta Civitatis Const.

I found two links which may be useful: here (3rd coin down) and here.

Pokermandude

Thanks a ton guys, you rock.

The first coin is 22mm in diameter. The second one is 23mm, so quite a bit smaller than a thaler. About the diameter of 1/12th thalers, but it is significantly thinner.



<< <i>Thanks, Don. I don't read German, but I think that the coin commemorates the death of one of Johann Wilhelm's (IV) children .. the next in line for the throne. It appears that he was 8 years, 9 months old when he died. Googling, they had a child born in 1630 (Johann Wilhelm) who died in 1639, but not on June 20. Oh well, how accurate were calenders then? Maybe he died the month before and they struck the coin on June 20. >>



The 8 years and 9 months old part makes sense. I could be wrong about the June 20th part which made sense to me at the time when reading "1639 . TERR . ORE . 20 . IUN . AN :".




<< <i>BTW, this must have been one heck of a cool lot! >>



It sure is! Once I have everything ID'd and discovered (almost done!) I'll be making a new thread all about it. By far the best lot I've stumbled into, and the owner was local (about an hour's drive, but close enough). As a teaser- I've never seen so many ACTUAL old coins come out of one coffee can in my life!

Pokermandude

<< <i>My guess for one of the "saxe's" was right:
http://www.ngccoin.com/poplookup/WorldCoinPrices.aspx?category=184723&worldcoinid=410030 >>



Nice! And aw dammnit I got the obverse upsides down. When I went to photograph it I probably turned it half a dozen times, neither orientation really looked quite right. Made more sense for the arms to be "coming down from the heavens", but the lettering all looked upside down to me.

Pokermandude

<< <i>I believe the first coin is a 1/2 batzen from Konstanz (Constanz), Germany. Early 17th century. 22mm in diameter, St. Conrad. Coin reads: S Conrad Et S Const, Moneta Civitatis Const.

I found two links which may be useful: here (3rd coin down) and here. >>



This looks bang on as well, thank you very much!

Pokermandude

Oh and since you guys are so helpful, here's one more (same hoard) I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything on. 1616 Mecklenburg-Gustrow doppelschilling.

It's actually in quite good condition, lustre left in the devices. A number of weakly struck areas, especially 12 o'clock through 3 o'clock on both the obverse and reverse. The coin's dies were lined up at 90 degrees from each other, which is how the corresponding weak areas line up that way.






It looks like this: http://www.ngccoin.com/poplookup/WorldCoinPrices.aspx?category=94761&worldcoinid=251998

But has a mintmark similar, but not identical, to this: http://www.muenzauktion.com/brom/item.php5?id=110404007&lang=nl

Pokermandude

Bump, anyone have any info on what looks like a mintmark on my piece?

lordmarcovan

Where are you seeing this supposed mintmark?

I will say this- I like the look of your piece better than the ones you linked to.

Pokermandude

<< <i>Where are you seeing this supposed mintmark?

I will say this- I like the look of your piece better than the ones you linked to. >>



Thanks

I am looking at Cross/flower(?) looking thing to the right of the large S in the second picture.

On the NGC link there's just empty space there. On the muenzauktion page there is a different type of marking, a much smaller, plain cross.

syl

Yes ... the mintmark is crossed swords, Jaochim Konecke, 1615-1618 and, in Krause, would be the (b) note in the listing. It is upper right to the right of the large DS monogram

Pokermandude

<< <i>Yes ... the mintmark is crossed swords, Jaochim Konecke, 1615-1618 and, in Krause, would be the (b) note in the listing. It is upper right to the right of the large DS monogram >>



Excellent, thank you. I saw the (b) notation on the NGC site but wasn't sure what it meant if anything. I've seen some other issues of these types of coins with other mint marks (one was either a star or sun?). Does the (b) refer to the crossed swords mintmark, or just any type of mintmark at all?

syl

Only the crossed (what look to be) swords, but may be some other type of instrument, implemnent or weapon. The (b) mintmark is only for the (swords?). There are other mintmarks (or actually mintmasters) for other time periods, places or masters. Pick up a Krause .. they are all in there.

Andres

the medal of the Duke of Saxony, Wilhelm IV reads in the edge in German: So nimt nühr hin mein gott zu dir / was du zuvor hast geben mir
which translates something like: My god takes it away from me, and gives it to you, which you prior gave too me .