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Chipper v Ryan Howard
markj111
Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
I was surprised to learn that Chipper has a higher OPS than Ryan Howard, albeit in considerably fewer plate appearances.
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markj111
Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭
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Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
And of course he can still play well when the injuries don't slow him down.
<< <i>Of course they're at different stages in their careers...Chipper towards the end of an excellent career, and Howard still a long way to go. >>
lol what the heck does that have to do with this seasons OPS?
<< <i>
<< <i>Of course they're at different stages in their careers...Chipper towards the end of an excellent career, and Howard still a long way to go. >>
lol what the heck does that have to do with this seasons OPS? >>
It wasn't mentioned if it was for the season...sounded like he meant career...perhaps I was mistaken.
I'm surprised Jeter wasn't somehow in the mix.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Of course they're at different stages in their careers...Chipper towards the end of an excellent career, and Howard still a long way to go. >>
lol what the heck does that have to do with this seasons OPS? >>
It wasn't mentioned if it was for the season...sounded like he meant career...perhaps I was mistaken. >>
you're right...i wasn't paying attention because he did say fewer plate appearances which couldn't mean for the career.
<< <i>I was an English major, perhaps I too am mistaken.
I'm surprised Jeter wasn't somehow in the mix.
Dam Steve - for an old guy you sure respond post with lightening speed.
Also this season Jones has less PA than Howard too.
Ron
Edited to add: For the benifit of stevek - The Phils also won.
Edited to capitalize the "P" in Phils, I didn't want stevek to red pencil my post.
<< <i>I was an English major, perhaps I too am mistaken.
I'm surprised Jeter wasn't somehow in the mix.
BTW: the correct grammar is "to" not "too" - you just flunked your English grad school entrance exam.
Too is used instead of 'also'
As in 'I also may be mistaken'
Steve
<< <i>I think you need a refresher Steve
Too is used instead of 'also'
As in 'I also may be mistaken'
Steve >>
I'll take your word for it Steve. I always thought "too" was an adverb such as too full or too kind, something like that.
I was never a great student.
<< <i>. I always thought "too" was an adverb such as too full or too kind, something like that. >>
That is also correct.
You can use it to say, I'm too full, your guitar is too loud and the like.
Basically it has two uses. :-) (one being used instead of 'also')
All other times use (to)
I'm used to Ryan Howard driving in too many runs and having two posters belittle him.
Any other questions?
lol
<< <i>
<< <i>. I always thought "too" was an adverb such as too full or too kind, something like that. >>
That is also correct.
You can use it to say, I'm too full, your guitar is too loud and the like.
Basically it has two uses. :-) (one being used instead of 'also')
All other times use (to)
I'm used to Ryan Howard driving in too many runs and having two posters belittle him.
Any other questions?
lol >>
Steve, if you were my English teacher, I'd place on your desk a nice big, shiny, red apple for that English lesson about Ryan Howard.
C'mon bell, please ring.
In the course of every human endeavor since the dawn of time the risk of human error has always been a factor. Including but not limited to field goals, 4th down attempts, or multiple paragraph ramblings on a sports forum authored by someone who shall remain anonymous.
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>A good word for Chipper, he did hit an impressive home run in today's 1st game of the make-up double header with the Mets. An upper deck hit in I think the 2nd or 3rd inning. The Braves won both ends of the double header.
Ron
Edited to add: For the benifit of stevek - The Phils also won.
Edited to capitalize the "P" in Phils, I didn't want stevek to red pencil my post.
Reminds me of a close friend of mine, we were fraternity roommates at Penn State, and I was in his wedding, and he's a Bears fan. Especially during football season, we email each other with smack talk all the time about the Eagles and the Bears, and whenever he types the word Eagles, he uses all lower case letters and the smallest 8 point type, the little SOB. LOL
Ryan Howard gets too much credit because ignorant fans don't understand the impact of his teammates, nor do they understand how to properly evaluate a baseball player.
Proper uses of "too" and "to".
Ryan Howard is the fifth best baseball player on his team this year. It will be interesting to see how often he is deemed better than a superior player because his team will have more wins(and probably win the World Series) than the superior player's team(a team without the luxury of as many elite players).
It will also be interesting to see how many of these superior teammates will get less MVP votes than Howard. THe writers are not immune to ignorance either
<< <i>Or,
Ryan Howard gets too much credit because ignorant fans don't understand the impact of his teammates, nor do they understand how to properly evaluate a baseball player.
Proper uses of "too" and "to".
Ryan Howard is the fifth best baseball player on his team this year. It will be interesting to see how often he is deemed better than a superior player because his team will have more wins(and probably win the World Series) than the superior player's team(a team without the luxury of as many elite players).
It will also be interesting to see how many of these superior teammates will get less MVP votes than Howard. THe writers are not immune to ignorance either
Nah...all Philly fans do get it...Ryan Howard is leading the NL in RBI's and is right up there in homers...exactly what he is being paid to do, and the Phillies have the best record in MLB. All the rest of your Sabermetrics "paralysis from analysis" you can have...I'd rather enjoy a cold beer, watch my Phillies win the World Series, and have a great time at the parade.
Bottom line...are the Phillies a better or worse team with Ryan Howard in the lineup...and just in case you aren't sure...the correct answer is "better"
<< <i>
<< <i>Or,
Ryan Howard gets too much credit because ignorant fans don't understand the impact of his teammates, nor do they understand how to properly evaluate a baseball player.
Proper uses of "too" and "to".
Ryan Howard is the fifth best baseball player on his team this year. It will be interesting to see how often he is deemed better than a superior player because his team will have more wins(and probably win the World Series) than the superior player's team(a team without the luxury of as many elite players).
It will also be interesting to see how many of these superior teammates will get less MVP votes than Howard. THe writers are not immune to ignorance either
Nah...all Philly fans do get it...Ryan Howard is leading the NL in RBI's and is right up there in homers...exactly what he is being paid to do, and the Phillies have the best record in MLB. All the rest of your Sabermetrics "paralysis from analysis" you can have...I'd rather enjoy a cold beer, watch my Phillies win the World Series, and have a great time at the parade.
Bottom line...are the Phillies a better or worse team with Ryan Howard in the lineup...and just in case you aren't sure...the correct answer is "better" >>
Of course they are better with him, than without him. He is their fifth best player. Problem is, he is given credit as if he is their best player, or even worse, the best player in the league(or better than cleary suprior players).
The bottom line is to give him appropriate credit...and most Philly fans do not...nor do many ignorant writers. He is getting his credit, plus that of the ability of his teammates credit. That just isn't right.
You can still drink cold beer, while at the same time being accurate in your appraisal.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Or,
Ryan Howard gets too much credit because ignorant fans don't understand the impact of his teammates, nor do they understand how to properly evaluate a baseball player.
Proper uses of "too" and "to".
Ryan Howard is the fifth best baseball player on his team this year. It will be interesting to see how often he is deemed better than a superior player because his team will have more wins(and probably win the World Series) than the superior player's team(a team without the luxury of as many elite players).
It will also be interesting to see how many of these superior teammates will get less MVP votes than Howard. THe writers are not immune to ignorance either
Nah...all Philly fans do get it...Ryan Howard is leading the NL in RBI's and is right up there in homers...exactly what he is being paid to do, and the Phillies have the best record in MLB. All the rest of your Sabermetrics "paralysis from analysis" you can have...I'd rather enjoy a cold beer, watch my Phillies win the World Series, and have a great time at the parade.
Bottom line...are the Phillies a better or worse team with Ryan Howard in the lineup...and just in case you aren't sure...the correct answer is "better" >>
Of course they are better with him, than without him. He is their fifth best player. Problem is, he is given credit as if he is their best player, or even worse, the best player in the league(or better than cleary suprior players).
The bottom line is to give him appropriate credit...and most Philly fans do not...nor do many ignorant writers. He is getting his credit, plus that of the ability of his teammates credit. That just isn't right.
You can still drink cold beer, while at the same time being accurate in your appraisal. >>
I fully understand your viewpoint, but we're not talking about Sabermetrics here, we're talking about winning ballgames and winning NL East titles and hopefully winning WS championships. Yes, Howard has his faults with the strikeouts, but Mickey Mantle struck out a lot as well...power hitters do that...and I've seen some crticize Mantle for his RBI production considering the great lineup his teams had. Note that it was never me with the criticism.
Mantle: Runs Batted In
1952 AL 87 (8th)
1953 AL 92 (10th)
1954 AL 102 (5th)
1955 AL 99 (6th)
1956 AL 130 (1st)
1957 AL 94 (6th)
1958 AL 97 (5th)
1960 AL 94 (6th)
1961 AL 128 (5th)
1964 AL 111 (3rd)
Career 1,509 (51st)
Howard: Runs Batted In
2006 NL 149 (1st)
2007 NL 136 (2nd)
2008 NL 146 (1st)
2009 NL 141 (1st)
2010 NL 108 (4th)
2011 NL 111 (1st)
Active 859 (40th)
Mantle only had 4 seasons of over 100 RBI's and yes around half were 154 game seasons, and he did have his share of injuries, and I am not saying Ryan Howard is a Mickey Mantle. But what I am saying is power hitting, consistently solid RBI production players are not easy to find.
I'm not saying your premise is incorrect that this type of player gets the attention, perhaps sometimes more than deserved, but that's the way it is...
...and as a big Phillies fan, the way things are going...I'm not going to complain about it.
Kingman: Runs Batted In
1976 NL 86 (10th)
1979 NL 115 (2nd)
1981 NL 59 (10th)
1982 NL 99 (8th)
1984 AL 118 (3rd)
Career 1,210 (137th)
I doubt if you will admit it, but can't you see now that your premise about that was inaccurate? Of course eventually all players go downhill and finally retire.
Perhaps this might be a good analogy...Ryan Howard is to Mickey Mantle, what Dave Kingman is to Ryan Howard...there can be some comparisons but they are players on a different level.
<< <i>Reminds me of a close friend of mine, we were fraternity roommates at Penn State, and I was in his wedding, and he's a Bears fan. Especially during football season, we email each other with smack talk all the time about the Eagles and the Bears, and whenever he types the word Eagles, he uses all lower case letters and the smallest 8 point type, the little SOB. LOL >>
That sounds exactly like something I would do, LOL.
Tabe
You presented several different points in your last few posts.
Your quote here, "I'm not saying your premise is incorrect that this type of player gets the attention, perhaps sometimes more than deserved, but that's the way it is..." This does give yourself a more clear stance, and perhaps makes me understand you a bit more.
I simply come from the stance of giving the proper attention, and a more precise accuracy in evaluating the individual...and I think you alluded that you understand that as well.
I will say this about Howard's RBI totals this year...they are not simply a product of being in a great lineup. His hitting ability with men on base, specificially with Runners in Scoring Position, is a big reason why his total is at the top. Even though RBI totals are a 'crude' way of looking at a player's offensive ability, in this case, they are demonstrating that Howard is performing better than what his OPS+ is saying.
Howard/Kingman. LOL, one of the best running posts on this board. No, he is not Kingman. I never said he was. That is more a projection for how quickly he will become him. He still hasn't become him, though he has shown signs this year of getting closer(his SLG%). His excellent hitting with Men on Base has prevented his RBI total shrinking in relation to his Batting Average and SLG%. That drop off could come quickly though. Another drop in SLG% and Batting AVG next year, coupled with an average season of hitting with MEN ON BASE, would make it more transparent.
Mantle.......................................................Howard...................Kingman.
As we stand as of today, the spread is more like that due to Mantle being a Centerfielder. Also, it depends on how you view Mantle. He actually had a shorter career and quick drop off(partly due to injuries). However, if looking just at prime years, Mantle rates higher in the pantheon of MLB history. His RBI total makes no change in where he rates.
FInally, I will always take offense to giving individual players credit over superior players because of team championships, especially when peopel use that to vault them over clearly suprior players. THe reasons are many...and all one has to do as look at the Phillies rotation and that should make anyone understand why you can't give the individual all that credit, because most of it is out of his control....like having a rotation that is the driving force of the team.
<< <i>SteveK,
You presented several different points in your last few posts.
Your quote here, "I'm not saying your premise is incorrect that this type of player gets the attention, perhaps sometimes more than deserved, but that's the way it is..." This does give yourself a more clear stance, and perhaps makes me understand you a bit more.
I simply come from the stance of giving the proper attention, and a more precise accuracy in evaluating the individual...and I think you alluded that you understand that as well.
I will say this about Howard's RBI totals this year...they are not simply a product of being in a great lineup. His hitting ability with men on base, specificially with Runners in Scoring Position, is a big reason why his total is at the top. Even though RBI totals are a 'crude' way of looking at a player's offensive ability, in this case, they are demonstrating that Howard is performing better than what his OPS+ is saying.
Howard/Kingman. LOL, one of the best running posts on this board. No, he is not Kingman. I never said he was. That is more a projection for how quickly he will become him. He still hasn't become him, though he has shown signs this year of getting closer(his SLG%). His excellent hitting with Men on Base has prevented his RBI total shrinking in relation to his Batting Average and SLG%. That drop off could come quickly though. Another drop in SLG% and Batting AVG next year, coupled with an average season of hitting with MEN ON BASE, would make it more transparent.
Mantle.......................................................Howard...................Kingman.
As we stand as of today, the spread is more like that due to Mantle being a Centerfielder. Also, it depends on how you view Mantle. He actually had a shorter career and quick drop off(partly due to injuries). However, if looking just at prime years, Mantle rates higher in the pantheon of MLB history. His RBI total makes no change in where he rates.
FInally, I will always take offense to giving individual players credit over superior players because of team championships, especially when peopel use that to vault them over clearly suprior players. THe reasons are many...and all one has to do as look at the Phillies rotation and that should make anyone understand why you can't give the individual all that credit, because most of it is out of his control....like having a rotation that is the driving force of the team. >>
One basic problem with your last paragraph in my viewpoint is...and I know you certainly know stats better than me, likely better than most, but stats is not what always correlates into winning ballgames, and I believe myself and the sportswriters may have a better understanding of this concept than you...of how power hitters can carry a team at times and help win championships. Here's how it works...when the Phillies win say 15 - 2 and everyone on the team gets their stats pumped up, i've seen days where Ryan Howard actually did chit in that game. But I've seen Ryan Howard go on two week tears, when the rest of the team ain't doing much, where he "carries" the team and wins ballgames for them just from his performance...that's the way it is with power hitters. I'm guessing because they're usually big strong guys and that's the way their metabolism works.
Let's tell it like it is here...Charlie Manuel isn't stupid, and the Phillies front office isn't stupid for paying him all that money. Ryan Howard bats cleanup in that talented lineup because they fully understand the basic concept which I just mentioned. Ya have to take the bad with the good when it comes to power hitters, and with Ryan Howard the good as I'm sure you'd agree, far outweighs the bad...and remember, the MVP award isn't for the "best" player, perhaps Sabermetrics could determine that, it's for the "most valuable" player, and for the reasons I just stated, a most valuable player is the one who helps transform his team overall into winning the most games and winning the most titles. Ryan Howard has been the most valuable player on the Phillies for some years now, and gets high NL MVP votes overall as well for those reasons.
Determinig if one is 'carrying' a team is based on one's perceptions. Two people can see the same event and have wildly varied viewpoints on what occured, and so forth. They cannot both be correct.
There is no question a guy like Howard is a valuable asset, and due to the fact that the Phillies overall lineup isn't as good as it was a few years ago, he is even more important to them now. I agree with you fully.
If that is your criteria to determining 'most valuable' it isn't that far off basse. However, if that is the criteria to determine "most valuable", then it renders that distinction fairly trivial, because then you are simply measuring the team and the situation, as opposed to the player himself.
In your rationale, if Ryan Howard were on the 1975 Reds, and he went .276, 48HR, 135 RBI,
he wouldn't be as valuable as if he were on this year's Philly team and produced the same .276, 48HR, 135 RBI...because this Philly team desperately needs that kind of production, while that Reds team didn't need it as much.
My viewpoint is that he didn't didn't do anything different 'for' the '75 Reds, then he did for this year's Philly team, and his 'baseball value' or ability is the same...so I see no reason to give him extra credit for doing that production on this year's phillies team simply because they need it more....because you are then measuring the situation, not the player, and he really has nothing to do with the situation, so why give him the credit or discredit for producing in it?
<< <i>SteveK,
Determinig if one is 'carrying' a team is based on one's perceptions. Two people can see the same event and have wildly varied viewpoints on what occured, and so forth. They cannot both be correct.
There is no question a guy like Howard is a valuable asset, and due to the fact that the Phillies overall lineup isn't as good as it was a few years ago, he is even more important to them now. I agree with you fully.
If that is your criteria to determining 'most valuable' it isn't that far off basse. However, if that is the criteria to determine "most valuable", then it renders that distinction fairly trivial, because then you are simply measuring the team and the situation, as opposed to the player himself.
In your rationale, if Ryan Howard were on the 1975 Reds, and he went .276, 48HR, 135 RBI,
he wouldn't be as valuable as if he were on this year's Philly team and produced the same .276, 48HR, 135 RBI...because this Philly team desperately needs that kind of production, while that Reds team didn't need it as much.
My viewpoint is that he didn't didn't do anything different 'for' the '75 Reds, then he did for this year's Philly team, and his 'baseball value' or ability is the same...so I see no reason to give him extra credit for doing that production on this year's phillies team simply because they need it more....because you are then measuring the situation, not the player, and he really has nothing to do with the situation, so why give him the credit or discredit for producing in it? >>
Those are valid points you make and I never said they weren't. No matter how good a player is, ya still need a supporting cast to succeed. I think a good example of this is the 1979 season. I mean Keith Hernandez on the field and on paper should have been the hands down MVP, you could hardly get him out that year...but he woundup tied with Willie Stargell for the award because of Stargell's presence and contributions on his team. Frankly, I thought Dave Parker was a better player than Stargell on that Pirates team that season, but that's the way it is with the MVP award...rightly or wrongly depending on your viewpoints...
...and of course those intangibles of being a fan have something to do with a viewpoint as well.
Bottom line...who between Stargell and Parker made the Pirates a better winning team that season? Who was more valuable to the team? I would have to go with Stargell.
If you are introducing attitude or leadership into the mix, those are different points than what I am talking about.
However, giving a lot of weight to those items is very dangerous, and most likely futile or inaccurate. Those elements may be more important in other sports where statistics are not nearly as reliable. Baseball is very conducive, especially hitting, in getting a precise measurement on the impact of a player.
If you want a precise measurement of Parker and Stargell in 1979, look at the high validity measurements:
According to the play by play evaluation, where it takes each plate appearance into context...meaning proper weight is given to hits with men on and such.
Parker was 45 runs above average
Stargell was 17 runs above average
Keith Hernandez was 59 runs above average that year.
If you want to look further at their Win Probability Added, which takes into account the score, inning, men on base...and how much they give their team a chance to win, you get the following:
Wins Added via Win Probability:
Parker 5.3
Stargell 4.2
Hernandez 5.5
This is interesting in that Stargell had many big moments, and when summed up, he added nearly as many wins as Parker and Hernandez, and he did it in about 200 fewer at bats. I think this particular year, people recognized that when watching Stargell...and it made an impression on them...and they were probably right.
How you want to look at the 200 less at bats is up for interpretation. It is pretty impressive to be as close as he is to those guys, despite being in many less games. However, it also isn't very valuable to be in many less games.
<< <i>FInally, I will always take offense to giving individual players credit over superior players because of team championships, especially when peopel use that to vault them over clearly suprior players. THe reasons are many...and all one has to do as look at the Phillies rotation and that should make anyone understand why you can't give the individual all that credit, because most of it is out of his control....like having a rotation that is the driving force of the team. >>
Tell that to the guy over on net54 who is arguing that wins are the only stat that matters for pitchers. That Roger Pavlik 1996 (15-8, 5.19 ERA) was better than Nolan Ryan 1987 (8-16, 2.76 ERA). He even stated he'd rather have Ray Oyler starting at SS over Miguel Tejada - because Oyler's team won a title.
I don't even know how to argue with someone like that.
Tabe
Those guys will only truly understand when they experience those situations first hand, and it cost them money.
Winpitcher will get a kick out of this...but offer him a bet to play him a baseball game and you two can be the opposing pitchers...only YOU get to pick the teams. Whoever earns the Win as the starting pitcher, wins the $5,000 bet.
He will cry right away about having lesser teammates, or lesser run support, LOL. Then he will comprehend when his wallet is much lighter!
Also, if he is one of those guys that believe a pitcher should pitch to the score, and get the win 'because that is his job'....then ask him what he thinks what would happen if management put together an offense that only averages one run per game. Based on his theory, a pitcher that has an ability to pitch to the score and maintain a winning record because of that ability, should finish that season with an ERA under 1.00 and have a winning record.
Common sense and logic usually go out the window with guys like that.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
Why is your avatar picture in jail?
Shane
<< <i>Both Chipper and Howard HAVE to be on PED's. There is no way possible that stats could be this good without artificial help. >>
Looks like someone wants be the new antagonist on this thread and is attempting to pour gasonline on the fire by making wholly unsubstantiated ridiculous comments.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
<< <i>
<< <i>Both Chipper and Howard HAVE to be on PED's. There is no way possible that stats could be this good without artificial help. >>
Looks like someone wants be the new antagonist on this thread and is attempting to pour gasonline on the fire by making wholly unsubstantiated ridiculous comments. >>
I forgot to put the "wink" emoticon. Hey, can you blame me. I've put up with it for years on this board about Pujols and I am normally quite about it. I am actually just illustrating what happens on this board every certain players names are even mentioned.
For example:
Thread Title - Cardinals Win Game 7 of World Series on Walk Off Home Run
First post - Did you guys see Game 7 last night? The Cardinals won it all on a walk off HR by Pujols. He has had an ok year by his standards, but he came through in the clutch this time!!! Go Cards!!
Second post - PED's.
Third post - Steroid's.
Fourth post - HGH.
Five post - Highly suspicious
So and and so forth.
I am just illustrating what goes on here sometimes by being a little bit ridiculous myself. Of course, I don't really expect Chipper on Ryan Howard to be on PED's. They are both tremendous players. I am not this way at all. I really like getting along with every body. I was just trying to prove a point.
Shane
Your hero was in a position to do something about it...but he lied and hid. So blame him, not the board members!
<< <i>That is more a projection for how quickly he will become him. >>
A broken clock is right 2x a day too.
You made that statement 4 years ago and 3 seasons have now passed, exactly when Skip
is this prophecy going to happen? When the guy is 40?
Just kidding, glad to see you back.
Steve
It will come well before age 40.
He has his lowest SLG% of his career right now at .491. Look at his SLG%
.659
.584
.543
.571
.505
.491
He is trending down.
His OPS+ the last two years is 126 and 124. Kingman's career OPS+ is 115. So he is getting closer than you think.
It is quite likely that the back half of his contract will be littered with a string of very Kingman-like years.