BOXING: A new W580 "variation?" Anyone have any thoughts?
nonpareil
Posts: 198
Hey guys,
For those of you who know me, you know that I am obsessed with collecting (and properly checklisting) the 1923 W580 strip card set.
Until today, there were two known front variations (the US version and the Siam version).
Today, I added another Stanley Ketchel (US version) to my collection that is a little different than the other US version I own.
The first image is the new one. The second one is the US version I previously had in my collection. The third one is the Siam version. Notice the different numbers in the margin between the first and second images. (As the Siam versions were machine-cut at the factory, and issued individually, the cards contain no numbers in the margins.)
Previously, it was thought that the numbers in the margin indicated a card's placement on a 10-card strip (as this is how the US version was issued). It was thought that each 10-card strip contained the same 10 cards, in the same order. A different number might indicate that strips were perhaps issued with different cards, and maybe in a different order. Therefore, it might be entirely possible that the W580 checklist did not contain 60 cards. In fact, at this point, there is no definitive checklist for the W580 set.
Theory: due to different cards being shuffled around to fill up the various strips, there may be LESS than 60 cards in the set. (This is important to me because I have been chasing the last 5 W580 for years and have never even seen one of the 5 I thought I needed (Abe Goldstein, Owen Moran, Jack Renault, Tommy Ryan and Jimmy Wilde). (A couple of year's back there was an auction for a Tommy Ryan W580, but this card had a Strollers Cigarette back variation. (Yes, for those of you scoring at home, that makes four known variations.)
Maybe we need to re-think the W580 checklist...again? The real trouble with properly checklisting the W580 set started with the publication of Seconds Out by Evan Jones (in 1993, I believe). In the book Jones has trouble distinguishing between the W580 set, and the similar looking W590 set.
The Dempsey is a W590. Because Jones made no distinction between the 2 sets, my fear is that some W590 cards got mixed into the W580 checklist. If you have a copy of the book, check out the entry. In fact, he DEFINITELY mixes a few W590's into the W580 checklist. (He incorrectly refers to them as variations. They are NOT variations, as the W590 is a separate multi-sport set issued in the late 1920's-early 1930's.) So, I have my work cut out for me if I want to properly checklist the set!
Text Here's a link if anyone wants to see the 55 different W580's all in one place.
For those of you who know me, you know that I am obsessed with collecting (and properly checklisting) the 1923 W580 strip card set.
Until today, there were two known front variations (the US version and the Siam version).
Today, I added another Stanley Ketchel (US version) to my collection that is a little different than the other US version I own.
The first image is the new one. The second one is the US version I previously had in my collection. The third one is the Siam version. Notice the different numbers in the margin between the first and second images. (As the Siam versions were machine-cut at the factory, and issued individually, the cards contain no numbers in the margins.)
Previously, it was thought that the numbers in the margin indicated a card's placement on a 10-card strip (as this is how the US version was issued). It was thought that each 10-card strip contained the same 10 cards, in the same order. A different number might indicate that strips were perhaps issued with different cards, and maybe in a different order. Therefore, it might be entirely possible that the W580 checklist did not contain 60 cards. In fact, at this point, there is no definitive checklist for the W580 set.
Theory: due to different cards being shuffled around to fill up the various strips, there may be LESS than 60 cards in the set. (This is important to me because I have been chasing the last 5 W580 for years and have never even seen one of the 5 I thought I needed (Abe Goldstein, Owen Moran, Jack Renault, Tommy Ryan and Jimmy Wilde). (A couple of year's back there was an auction for a Tommy Ryan W580, but this card had a Strollers Cigarette back variation. (Yes, for those of you scoring at home, that makes four known variations.)
Maybe we need to re-think the W580 checklist...again? The real trouble with properly checklisting the W580 set started with the publication of Seconds Out by Evan Jones (in 1993, I believe). In the book Jones has trouble distinguishing between the W580 set, and the similar looking W590 set.
The Dempsey is a W590. Because Jones made no distinction between the 2 sets, my fear is that some W590 cards got mixed into the W580 checklist. If you have a copy of the book, check out the entry. In fact, he DEFINITELY mixes a few W590's into the W580 checklist. (He incorrectly refers to them as variations. They are NOT variations, as the W590 is a separate multi-sport set issued in the late 1920's-early 1930's.) So, I have my work cut out for me if I want to properly checklist the set! Text Here's a link if anyone wants to see the 55 different W580's all in one place.
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
0
Comments
Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
Jeff
<< <i>Nice detective work, Alan. This is quite a quest you've got going. I know very little about this set, other than what I've read through some of your posts, but it'll be fun watching you track down those last five cards. You should post the checklist in this thread, making special note of the cards you're looking for - and maybe someone from the boards might be able to help you. Just an idea. Good luck in the search! >>
Good idea! Thanks.
Here's the checklist. I need the ones in bold (Abe Goldstein, Owen Moran, Jack Renault, Tommy Ryan and Jimmy Wilde). Later, I will indicate which of the 30 cards below can be found in Siam variation, as not all W580 were issued in Siam variation. Here is a link to 21/30 Siam variations that I have collected: W580 Siam Variations
1923 W580 Boxing (55/60)
Abe Attell
Joe Bernstein
Bill Brennan
Jack Britton
Johnny Buff
Sailor Burke
Georges Carpentier
Joe Choynski
Mel Coogan
Jim Corbett
Young Corbett
Leach Cross
Jack Dempsey
George Dixon
Johnny Dundee
Frank Erne
Luis Angel Firpo
Bob Fitzsimmons
Young Bob Fitzsimmons
Sailor Freedman
Joe Gans
Frankie Genaro
Mike Gibbons
Tommy Gibbons
Abe Goldstein
Young Griffo
Jim Jeffries
Floyd Johnson
Jack Johnson
Stanley Ketchel
Frank Klaus
Kid Lavigne
Benny Leonard
Ted Lewis
Joe Lynch
Peter Maher
Kid McCoy
Packey McFarland
Terry McGovern
Mike McTigue
Billy Miske
Frank Moran
Owen Moran
Pal Moran
Battling Nelson
Philadelphia Jack O’Brien
Mike O’Dowd
Billy Papke
Jack Renault
Willie Ritchie
Tommy Ryan
John L. Sullivan
Lew Tendler
Gene Tunney
Charlie White
Jimmy Wilde
Jess Willard
Kid Williams
Harry Wills
Ad Wolgast
<< <i>I think I read a thread about this on the net54 boards....really interesting. Do you run across the wrestlers at all? I need to improve some of the cards I have. >>
The wrestlers are a part of the multi-sport W590 set. I have seen your collection on the registry, and they are top notch. I seldom, if ever, see them. Occasionally I have found them mixed in with some W580 boxers or W590 cards from other sports. I will certainly keep them on the side if I ever come across them again. If you upgrade yours and want to sell/trade your dupes, drop me a line. BTW, I am sending out your Londos card tomorrow, along with a couple of other surprises for you. Enjoy!
Alan
Jeff
- ABE GOLDSTEIN
- JACK RENAULT
- JIMMY WILDE
They must be pretty tough if you're both lacking them. On a side note - he has the Jack Dempsey in a PSA 9. WOW!!!
Jeff
<< <i>BTW - I just noticed the the RAS collection is missing three of the same cards you are. #1 Set on the Registry
- ABE GOLDSTEIN
- JACK RENAULT
- JIMMY WILDE
They must be pretty tough if you're both lacking them. On a side note - he has the Jack Dempsey in a PSA 9. WOW!!! >>
You're right. I wonder if they actually exist.
Re: Dempsey
This is mine.
Consider me jealous of his PSA 9.
I am thinking about grading some of them, at least the ones that PSA doesn't recognize yet, in order to "officially" expand the checklist to the full 55 I've found.
<< <i>That's a great list of boxers. You've got three of my favorite four (Dempsey, Jack Johnson & Tunney) in there. Are you planning to grade any of these and start a registry set? >>
I would definitely like to grade these so PSA could add them to the registry. (Of course, they'll all be PSA AUTHENTIC..."slightly" trimmed. LOL)
Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
nonpareil
I can't hardly wait to have the Londos in hand. To think I have another surprise or two is fabulous. I know I need a Henri DeGlane French card and hopefully you can assist in me finding one in the future. I like him especially considering his exploits in the Olympics and through pro wrestling. Anyways, your knowledge and assistance is always appreciated.
Rob
Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
Ive always called the nonboxers W590 (actresses, baseball, golf, history, etc.), and the boxers W580
good work trying to sort of the W580/W590 mystery
Your beat up Dempsey above ("World's Heavy Weight Champion" portrait pose) has a serif font, while all the other boxing cards shown above have a sans-serif font.
All known W590's have a serif font like the Dempsey (portrait)
ie.
Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
WKK, you're welcome. Enjoy! And I will be on the look out for the French card you're looking for.
Alan