Help ID'ing an old Phil Niekro card

Justus · August 24, 2011 8:28PM

Can anyone help ID this card? The seller told me it came in a group of old Cuban ball cards he bought but that doesn't mean it's Cuban.

Thanks!

Ironmanfan · August 24, 2011 10:41PM

I personally have no idea, but it's very cool.....I'm sure someone here can ID it

IMF

Dialj · August 24, 2011 11:52PM

I searched every page in the 2009 Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards and didn't see it. Hopefully I missed it and someone can identify it.

Justus · August 25, 2011 11:30AM

Thanks for taking the time to look Dialj.

pato1516 · August 26, 2011 12:26AM

Can you tell what jersey he's wearing? It doesn't look like a major league jersey to me. If it's a minor league or winter league jersey, that might help narrow down the year of issue.

Dialj · August 26, 2011 12:53AM

Niekro pitched winter ball in the Puerto Rican League with Mayaguez and Arecibo; and he pitched in the Minor Leagues with Wellsville and McCook in 1959, Jacksonville and Louisville in 1960, Austin in 1961, Louisville in 1962, Denver 1964, and Richmond in 1966.

Justus · August 26, 2011 9:40AM

Thanks again, Dialj. I'm away from the card right now or would look more closely at the jersey but I also remember thinking it wasn't a major league one.

mcadams · August 26, 2011 12:06PM

Interesting looking card. If it wasn't of Neikro, I would have guessed it was a much older early 20th century issue. If no one here can figure it out, try posting it at Net54....I'll be Leon or someone there would have an idea.

fkw · August 26, 2011 5:17PM

It looks just like your average Latin card.... Cuban, Puerto Rico, Dominican, etc.

For many years from the 40's through the 60's they made crude basic design "album cards".... yours looks exactly like one of them ca1960s

I have a few different types none are cataloged except the 1950 Dominican issue which has a listing in the SCD but the info is minimal.

These cards are all fairly scarce with some like the 1950s Dominican issue known in examples of less than 5 with many unique and as you see with the checklist many yet to be discovered

...

Many collectors call ALL these cards "Album cards" because many are printed on cheap paper and were glued into albums.... but then you have the thicker stock cutout type cards that look to have been cut from a food box too. Very little info is known on all these "sets". Some sets show Major Leaguers mixed with local players, some just locals.

some of the many examples of Latin "album cards".......

ca1950 Dominican (listed in the SCD for last 10 years or so)

ca1950 unknown cutout (uncataloged, unchecklisted, 3 dif players seen by me)

ca1957 Dominican (uncataloged, unchecklisted, 2 dif seen by me) I call "type1"

ca1957 Dominican (uncataloged, unchecklisted, 2 dif seen by me) I call "type 2"

ca1960? ??? (uncataloged, unchecklisted)

fkw · August 26, 2011 5:41PM

PS. you need to research the uniform he is wearing. It may be a Dominican Winter League uniform or something like that. It will clue you in to the exact year and it may also show that the card is older than his rookie which would make it very desirable to the Big Time Rookie card collectors who specialize in the earliest known cards of HOFers etc.

EDITED: to say your card is most likely the most important card known for Phil Niekro.

The uniform matches the same type used ca1957 by the Estrellas de Oriente team of the Dominican Winter Leagues.

Here is a card I have from the ca.1957 ("type 2" set) that shows the same type uniform

Justus · August 26, 2011 7:53PM

Wow!! A wealth of information! Thanks so much. I'm currently overseas but I've asked my card master to see if he can find it and send me a large scan; I'll post it when he sends it.

fkw, I was home in May and held the card, it is the thicker stock cutout type, not thin paper.

Thanks again!

Southsider · August 26, 2011 8:43PM

I just wanted to say that this thread is awesome. Love the information.

fkw · August 26, 2011 9:26PM

Maybe someone can find out what year(s) Phil played for the Estrellas de Oriente team???

he would have been 20 years old April 1959

right now id ID it as a ca.1960 Dominican Album card, but it very easily could be late 1950s too.

Its exactly the type of card the OLD CARDBOARD Rookie Card Checklist would show if they knew of it

maybe after you can get a more accurate year you might want to let them know
OLD CARDBOARD Hall of Fame Rookie Cards list

For a Dominican or any Latin card it actually has nice eye appeal overall for a card that would grade very low (tear, multiple creases)
very cool card, there is a very good chance it may be unique.

Justus · August 27, 2011 10:12AM

I can't find anything on Estrellas de Oriente (Stars of Orient) and Niekro on a quick search but will dig in deeper later on. Thanks for all the info and probably ID, fkw! I should have a better quality scan in about 24 hours that I'll post.

The Old Cardboard site is cool! I've never stumbled upon it before, so thanks for pointing it out.

I've also never seen or heard of the cards you posted. VERY interesting stuff, to say the least. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.

mcadams · August 27, 2011 10:44AM

Great thread....

GDM67 · August 27, 2011 10:59AM

Get it graded and request it for the Master set. It would be a great addition.

yankeeno7 · August 27, 2011 11:46AM

Mr Niekro does though the mail autographs...maybe he would just answer a question if you wrote him a nice letter with a picture of the card. He may know information of when that was in his career...or at least about when but those guys usually remember that stuff quite well. Maybe he has even seen the card before during that time period and can tell you where it may have come from.

NickM · August 27, 2011 11:58AM

Great work, Frank.
BTW, what are the chances your Chilote Llenas and Pedro Gonzalez cards may be from the same set?

Nick

AkbarClone · August 27, 2011 12:17PM

Phil Niekro played in the Dominican winter league during the winter of 1963-64.

Justus · August 28, 2011 10:30AM

Here is the larger scan. I don't remember the dots being so prevalent when I held the card, might be a function of the scanner. One thing I now notice is along the bottom right edge are dots of another card's left edge, so obviously sheet-cut, right?

Frank, I'd say you've nailed it on the uniform even though I can find no reference to him playing for the Estrellas. I'm guessing it wasn't unusual for teams to re-use uniforms, especially with a non-city team name.

yankeeno7, I was thinking the same, to get in touch with Mr. Niekro and see if he remembers anything about when this picture was taken.

AkbarClone · August 28, 2011 11:48AM

Do you want a reference for my information since you seem to dismiss it?

Justus · August 28, 2011 12:41PM

Sorry AkbarClone, I didn't dismiss it, just overlooked it in my reply. Yes please, I'd love the reference. Thanks!

Justus · August 28, 2011 10:07PM

Ok, I had some time today to do some deeper research. I’ve found the following:

•Winter 1961-62 – played for Arecibo, Puerto Rico (reference)

•Winter 1963-64 – played for Mayaguez, Puerto Rico (reference)

•Winter 1966-67 – played for Estrellas de Oriente, San Pedro de Macoris, Dominican Republic (reference) AkbarClone also has a reference for the 1963-64 season being played in the Dominican Winter League, so I'm hoping it was also for the Estrellas as it might mean this is an earlier card than from the 1966-67 season.

Frank, does any of this fit any other information you have?

pato1516 · August 28, 2011 11:47PM

<< <i>One thing I now notice is along the bottom right edge are dots of another card's left edge, so obviously sheet-cut, right? >>

My guess is that it might be the top left of a 4-in-1 type card. Unless it happened to be the top left of the sheet(and possibly even if it were), I wouldn't expect the top and left borders to be so much larger than the right border. I suppose it could also be a strip card which happened to be on the left end of the strip, but the bottom border doesn't look quite parallel to the top. That leads me to believe 4-in-1.

Justus · August 28, 2011 11:53PM

Good point pato, I hadn't thought of that.

AkbarClone · August 29, 2011 2:38AM

I see you have found the same reference in your searches above:

Estrellas de Oriente was a Dominican League Team. Cal Ermer was a manager who was involved with the Puerto Rican and Dominican Winter Leagues.

In the book: Puerto Rico's Winter League: A History of Major League Baseball's Launching Pad
by Thomas E. Van Hyning and Eduardo Valero

Page 181, in the chapter entitled "Skippers", it talks about Ermer, and some of the players he worked with. On the last paragraph of that page, it begins:

"Phil Niekro was another Ermer project. Niekro began the 1963-64 winter in the Dominican Republic, but was without a job when Mayaguez claimed him."

Thus, Niekro's team at the start of that winter (1963-64)"could" have been Estrellas de Oriente, before he moved over to the Puerto Rican league (Mayaguez).

Help ID'ing an old Phil Niekro card

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