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Greece: is that the U.S. future?

The U.K. Guardian has a grim article about Greece
link

I like to look at events in other countries to possibly glimpse what may happen here.

It is not a pretty picture.

>> selected quotes, with some added comments in square brackets:

Greeks have been taking their life savings out of [bank] accounts and sticking them in metal slits in basement vaults. ...

... The clerk leans over: "I've been working in a bank for 31 years, and I've never seen a panic like this." ...

... an acquaintance who took out €30,000, wrapped it in a bag and stashed it in his garage. "The bag had previously had some food inside," he says. "So it attracted rats, who ate the notes." ...
[another argument for gold, rats don't eat gold, well at least the bigger bars and the smaller rats, maybe big silver bars will last longer against rats...]

... salaries of civil servants are slashed by up to 30% within a few months ... over 20% of public-sector workers face unemployment within the next four years – plus whole swathes of national assets are to be privatised before Christmas, with more job losses doubtless to follow ...

[the private sector is no picnic either]
... In one factory, where a staff of 200 is now down to 30, the manager points to empty floors and idle machines. ...

[the clergy is not immune]
... Pater Daniel laughs, then holds up five fingers: there are five priests in Piraeus, and soon there will only be one [with a paying job]...

... So what will Greek society look like after the government's austerity measures take effect? He pauses, then says: "It will probably look like a developing country."

>>

Comments

  • BigEBigE Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭
    Greece cznt print money, we can. We will be able to lie, cheat and cover up a little longer than them. I figure we got a few years leftimage-------------------BogE
    I'm glad I am a Tree
  • The government spends beyond it's means to benefit bankers and multi-national corporations and then asks the peasants to live below their means to pay for it, at the same time the the productive capacity of the country has been exported abroad through trade deals and outsourcing of jobs to line the pockets of greedy CEO's. So much for a representative form of government, more like a return to feudal economies. Way to go America!


  • << <i>Greece cznt print money, we can. >>


    At least until our foreign creditors keep thinking we will be able to pay back our treasuries without defaulting outright or through inflation, otherwise whose going to buy them?
  • BigEBigE Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Greece cznt print money, we can. >>


    At least until our foreign creditors keep thinking we will be able to pay back our treasuries without defaulting outright or through inflation, otherwise whose going to buy them? >>



    We will buy them, of course, just like we have been---------BigE
    I'm glad I am a Tree
  • OverdateOverdate Posts: 7,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    << At least until our foreign creditors keep thinking we will be able to pay back our treasuries without defaulting outright or through inflation, otherwise whose going to buy them? >>

    The Fed.

    My Adolph A. Weinman signature :)



  • << <i><< At least until our foreign creditors keep thinking we will be able to pay back our treasuries without defaulting outright or through inflation, otherwise whose going to buy them? >>

    The Fed. >>


    Yea, especially since 'QE' did a real good job of bailing out the bankers at the expense of close to 3 trillion added to the debt and resulted in zero growth. George knew what was going on R.I.P.
  • pf70collectorpf70collector Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭
    Yes, we will buy our own debt. Either through the Fed or by the taking over of private pension funds worth trillions. I never thought the Patriot Act would never be struck down. I believe our government is quite capable of taking over pensions funds in a national emergency like they did with Gold in the 30s.
  • stevekstevek Posts: 28,966 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The government spends beyond it's means to benefit bankers and multi-national corporations and then asks the peasants to live below their means to pay for it, at the same time the the productive capacity of the country has been exported abroad through trade deals and outsourcing of jobs to line the pockets of greedy CEO's. So much for a representative form of government, more like a return to feudal economies. Way to go America! >>



    "government spends beyond its means" is correct - however the problem is definitively not bankers and multi-national corporations...they are businesses that add jobs and benefits to society. The major problem is lawyer politicians making laws or not making laws to benefit their lawyer friends and those associated with them. For example, the costs involved in the business and medical profession to try to prevent lawsuits is horrendous and of course the costs to fight frivolous and unjustified lawsuits is horrendous as well...as well as wasting money and time having to hire accountants to figure out the financial tax burdens which these lawyer politicians created to mainly benefit themselves and their cottage industry friends which benefit from all this. In the meantime in the overall scheme of things...this extreme excess amount of lawyers and accountants in society create nothing of benefit for the society, and they windup acting as parasites. Just look in the Yellow Pages and see the page after page of big ads for lawyers, and daytime TV basically many of the ads are for lawyers pitching you to file lawsuiits, and that is all that is needed to show that lawyers and lawsuits are out of control in our country, and they need to be reined in now. The bottom line is tort reform and a complete redo of the tax laws to simplify tax paying and processing for businesses and consumers would be a great start to getting our country back on the right track.

    Wall Street was not the problem in 2008...government officials allowing and forcing banks to provide mortgage loans to those who couldn't afford them, and then the government guaranteeing those loans was the problem in the "panic" which helped result in the current administration getting elected...and there is no doubt, in my opinion, that the current administration will try to create another "panic" of some sort around October of 2012 or before to try to ensure their reelection. The banks and insurance companies that truly profited from this mess, should have all been allowed to go under...there are plenty of solid banks and insurance companies out there which would have taken the place of them. And those financial companies out there...they are a dime a dozen.

    Long story short...elect the right leaders who will enact badly needed tort reform so that lawyers can no longer extort money from the legal system...and simplify the tax laws...and keep government out of the business and consumer world as much as possible.

    And if we don't do most or all of the above, then "Yes" sooner or later there will be a collapse, and the riots and turmoil seen in Greece will be the same here, if not perhaps worse...possibly much, much worse.
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,822 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If congress was so hellbent on giving money to bankers, they should have let the big banks fail and then bolstered some of the local and regional institutions with a couple hundred billion if necessary.

    Rewarding ponzi schemes, corrupt banking and government agencies who can't account for their own P&L is truly crazy. Nice job, congress.

    Added: What stevek said, see above.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    [i}Wall Street was not the problem in 2008...government officials allowing and forcing banks to provide mortgage loans to those who couldn't afford them, and then the government guaranteeing those loans was the problem in the "panic" which helped result in the current administration getting elected....

    Wall Street was 90% of the problem in 2008....or at least their leveraged bets were. We had the ability to deal with the mortgage issue by itself. "Only" about $5-$10 TRILL in otc
    derivatives were written on that market. A bigger problem was the $62 TRILLION in credit default swaps of which $10-$20 TRILL failed and had to be bailed out. Still lurking on
    the sidelines and affecting confidence level in the entire financial sector are the $220 TRILL in otc interest rate swaps/bets held by US banks. No doubt mortgages and real estate got
    the ball rolling in 2007-2008, but it is the smallest of the 3 major risk piles (MBS, CDS, IRS). Wall Street didn't get to the point of applying 50 to 1 leverage to those 3 markets by
    themselves. They had lots of help from govt(s) and corporations to get there. But they were the ones applying insane leverage to the various markets. I would fully agree that
    reigning in banksters, politicians, lawyers, accountants/rating agencies, financial regulators, etc. is all part of the solution.

    roadrunner

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • stevekstevek Posts: 28,966 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>[i}Wall Street was not the problem in 2008...government officials allowing and forcing banks to provide mortgage loans to those who couldn't afford them, and then the government guaranteeing those loans was the problem in the "panic" which helped result in the current administration getting elected....

    Wall Street was 90% of the problem in 2008....or at least their leveraged bets were. We had the ability to deal with the mortgage issue by itself. "Only" about $5-$10 TRILL in otc
    derivatives were written on that market. A bigger problem was the $62 TRILLION in credit default swaps of which $10-$20 TRILL failed and had to be bailed out. Still lurking on
    the sidelines and affecting confidence level in the entire financial sector are the $220 TRILL in otc interest rate swaps/bets held by US banks. No doubt mortgages and real estate got
    the ball rolling in 2007-2008, but it is the smallest of the 3 major risk piles (MBS, CDS, IRS). Wall Street didn't get to the point of applying 50 to 1 leverage to those 3 markets by
    themselves. They had lots of help from govt(s) and corporations to get there. But they were the ones applying insane leverage to the various markets. I would fully agree that
    reigning in banksters, politicians, lawyers, accountants/rating agencies, financial regulators, etc. is all part of the solution.

    roadrunner >>



    <<< Wall Street was 90% of the problem in 2008 >>>

    Points understood, I graduated from Penn State with a Finance degree, Penn State has an excellent school of business, so I understand the market quite well. Don't let the politicians fool you...Wall Street was basically 0% of the problem in 2008...they were just doing what Wall Street does, and some of their "investment" packages they put together are high risk, high reward...the problem was 100% the government not allowing some of these Wall Street firms to fail or pay the full price for poor judgment instead of rewarding some of them with bailouts.

    Here is a simple illustration - I live in a small suburban town...but there are dozens and dozens of different banks...and who knows how many financial companies just in my little town, offering who knows what kind of services and investment packages. If say half of them failed in 2008, the other half of their competitors who didn't get involved in these risky endeavors would have quickly or eventually picked up the slack in the marketplace. Also, new banks and financial companies would have sprung up.The market would have cleansed itself naturally, but the government had to stick their "big brother" nose in it. There is no doubt that by now, halfway thru 2011, if the government would have just allowed everything to play itself out and settle, that we would be on a strong road to recovery and more, with considerably less government debt, less unemployment, and a much brighter future.

    Socialism just simply cannot work in a country such as the United States, and it shouldn't even be debatable for anyone who has an understanding of our Constitution and the basic economic principles involved. I would guess that those on the far left, in private, yearn for a different constitution and perhaps even a different name for our country...and therein lies the fundamental difference with the current administration versus the Tea Party and conservative and mainstream ideas.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Amassing $1.14 QUAD in unregulated and unbacked otc derivatives is not just doing what Wall Street does. That's a first for the USA and the world. If the govt had just allowed
    the financial system to fall apart from 2007-2009 that would not have been a very pretty outcome. But, the system would have started to repair itself much quicker but a
    lot of people and and possibly a majority of small businesses would have died as well. Our govt decided to go with the slow death approach over many years instead of one clean
    sweep over 1-2 yrs. I don't know if our debt based money system is taught in business schools. Certainly, the bankers derivative's-based private monetary system is not discussed
    anywhere else except amongst themselves. When Sinclair first wrote about the derivative's mess back in 2002 it was only a couple of years old, but already into the hundreds of
    TRILLIONs. That in a nutshell is the underpinning of the financial system contagion. There are only 2 options from here. Keep kicking the can down the road until the system
    implodes, or conduct a fast reset soon and self-implode the system via massive cancellation of debt and derivative's contracts. The banksters won't allow such a reset and neither
    would politicians since most of them would not get re-elected.

    I would agree that ever since LTCM (1998), the Asian currency crisis, and then Enron, etc. that the bankers knew the FED and Treasury would back stop any major losses on their bets.
    Putting the otc derivative's game into play in 2000-2001 allowed their betting to proceed into hyper-drive. The system was essentially lost by 2004-2006 regardless of what govt
    actions might have been taken since that time. In repealing Glass-Steagal over a decade ago and choosing not to regulate otc derivatives, the govt was 100% at fault. Socialism
    may not ultimately work in the US but it's basically the system we've been on for the past 75-80 yrs. It's where all big govt leads to. The republic we were born with is long gone.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold


  • << <i>

    << <i>The government spends beyond it's means to benefit bankers and multi-national corporations and then asks the peasants to live below their means to pay for it, at the same time the the productive capacity of the country has been exported abroad through trade deals and outsourcing of jobs to line the pockets of greedy CEO's. So much for a representative form of government, more like a return to feudal economies. Way to go America! >>



    "government spends beyond its means" is correct - however the problem is definitively not bankers and multi-national corporations...they are businesses that add jobs and benefits to society. >>


    Yea they create jobs and add to the economy, just not the American economy, with tax laws created to allow them to keep their profits overseas and not pay taxes despite record profits while at the same time undermining the productive capacity of the country.

    Link
  • stevekstevek Posts: 28,966 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Amassing $1.14 QUAD in unregulated and unbacked otc derivatives is not just doing what Wall Street does. That's a first for the USA and the world. If the govt had just allowed
    the financial system to fall apart from 2007-2009 that would not have been a very pretty outcome. But, the system would have started to repair itself much quicker but a
    lot of people and and possibly a majority of small businesses would have died as well. Our govt decided to go with the slow death approach over many years instead of one clean
    sweep over 1-2 yrs. I don't know if our debt based money system is taught in business schools. Certainly, the bankers derivative's-based private monetary system is not discussed
    anywhere else except amongst themselves. When Sinclair first wrote about the derivative's mess back in 2002 it was only a couple of years old, but already into the hundreds of
    TRILLIONs. That in a nutshell is the underpinning of the financial system contagion. There are only 2 options from here. Keep kicking the can down the road until the system
    implodes, or conduct a fast reset soon and self-implode the system via massive cancellation of debt and derivative's contracts. The banksters won't allow such a reset and neither
    would politicians since most of them would not get re-elected.

    I would agree that ever since LTCM (1998), the Asian currency crisis, and then Enron, etc. that the bankers knew the FED and Treasury would back stop any major losses on their bets.
    Putting the otc derivative's game into play in 2000-2001 allowed their betting to proceed into hyper-drive. The system was essentially lost by 2004-2006 regardless of what govt
    actions might have been taken since that time. In repealing Glass-Steagal over a decade ago and choosing not to regulate otc derivatives, the govt was 100% at fault. Socialism
    may not ultimately work in the US but it's basically the system we've been on for the past 75-80 yrs. It's where all big govt leads to. The republic we were born with is long gone.

    roadrunner >>



    Excellent points - We have a few different opinions and viewpoints, but I think we are on the same page. I still have hope for our country - I really don't believe it's too late...but in any event, continuing down the same path of excess government spending and rampant printing of money is unacceptable. Times have changed, and the US must change with it...either that or one day we may wakeup and America is renamed Sorosville.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,793 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, not the same. Greece can't print it's way out, the US can. Greece sold its soul (and control of its currency) to the Eurpean Union as did all other members.

    The US's future is runaway inflation. Of course, a devalued dollar is a hidden form of default and a hidden form of tax.

    "Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey

  • stevekstevek Posts: 28,966 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>The government spends beyond it's means to benefit bankers and multi-national corporations and then asks the peasants to live below their means to pay for it, at the same time the the productive capacity of the country has been exported abroad through trade deals and outsourcing of jobs to line the pockets of greedy CEO's. So much for a representative form of government, more like a return to feudal economies. Way to go America! >>



    "government spends beyond its means" is correct - however the problem is definitively not bankers and multi-national corporations...they are businesses that add jobs and benefits to society. >>


    Yea they create jobs and add to the economy, just not the American economy, with tax laws created to allow them to keep their profits overseas and not pay taxes despite record profits while at the same time undermining the productive capacity of the country.

    Link >>



    Point understood...but you should understand that Americans benefit from that in the form of cheaper imported goods, and the stockholders of these corporations benefit as well. Our corporations working and creating jobs overseas isn't the problem...corporations aren't the problem...the fundamental problem is government not giving Americans the ability to compete on world terms. We want to compete on our terms and to be perfectly blunt, that's not the way the world works. Perhaps in the 50's and 60's, and some of the 70's when America was a powerhouse and didn't have strong worldwide business competition, then we could dictate terms the way we wished...well those days are gone and unfortunately the politicians and some others don't wish to acknowledge that.

    China and other countries have workers working for low wages...we can either try to compete or we can sit and whine about it. Why shouldn't an American be allowed to work for whatever wage they want to? If I'm a kid in some urban area which won't hire workers at mimimum wage, why shouldn't I be allowed to work for whatever wage I want, build up my resume and work experience, enabling me to possibly move up in a company, up the corporate ladder so to speak. and become more valuable to prospective employers. Isn't paying a worker even say $1 an hour, better than having them sit home and do nothing?

    Not everyone can be a doctor or lawyer...we need assembly line and production workers to help bring back the greatness of America. Of course the liberal elite would have you believing that jobs such as that are degrading and humiliating, and only white collar jobs should be the goal. Well...there is honor in all work, and it's high time to tell the liberal elite to STFU and leave us alone, let every person in America work for whatever they want, and whoever they want, and allow everyone to rise to their potential...and if that potential is only good enough to be a janitor...again...there is honor in all work, and I for one don't look down on anyone who works hard for a living, and supports themselves and their families.

    This may surprise you as I am obviously a conservative...we could fix the illegal immigration problem overnight..allow them to stay in our country, give them working papers, eliminate the minimum wage, and many of those manufacturing jobs in China and elsewhere can come back here. and some will say "oh that stevek and conservatives are cruel and mean and they want to bring back sweatshops"...well, again...we can sit here and whine and moan that China is kicking our arse out there...or we can buckle down and compete, head to head, and beat them as I know that Americans under a free enterprise system versus their red communist system, absolutely we can beat them.

    The solutions are clear...the political implications are of course the problem, and again...it is time to elect political leaders who will put country first, and their political careers second...and if we don't, then they win.
  • stevekstevek Posts: 28,966 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>No, not the same. Greece can't print it's way out, the US can. Greece sold its soul (and control of its currency) to the Eurpean Union as did all other members.

    The US's future is runaway inflation. Of course, a devalued dollar is a hidden form of default and a hidden form of tax. >>



    <<< Of course, a devalued dollar is a hidden form of default and a hidden form of tax >>>

    Excellent point - I wish all Americans would understand this basic fact, and then we would know that those who say they don't want to raise taxes on anyone earning under 250K per year...are bald faced liars because they have already put in place a significant tax increase on everyone by devaluing the currency, which hits working middle class families the hardest.
  • storm888storm888 Posts: 11,701 ✭✭✭

    Americans deserve to undergo what is going to happen. They became
    lazy and eager to sidle up to the trough of stolen money provided by
    their corrupt govt. They have no one to blame but themselves, thus,
    they will blame anybody who planned for the inevitable.

    The murderous and parasitic peasants of Greece lack the "firepower"
    that even the lowest American serfs possess. The "troubles" in the
    streets of America will dwarf those in Greece; under fire, the good
    citizens of the failed USA will save themselves via an obviously long
    needed Balkanization.

    You can't be a good neighbor to a bad neighbor. Half of Americans
    have shown their good neighbors that a divorce is the only viable
    solution. The sooner it happens, the better for those good neighbors.

    Buy PMs, food, non-urban real property and the means to protect
    it; you'll be fine, while the troubles sort themselves out.






    Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,660 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Excellent analysis stevek, thank you for taking the time to write all that, I will reread it all again because I think I agree with everything you've written and want to maybe ask a question. There can be a tendency on this forum for some of the glib stone throwers to attack and belittle rational, big picture thinking that perhaps modifies and in some cases contradicts the reactionary dogma maybe inherent in a PM forum, it's driven away some pretty smart people in the past, hope you'll stick around a while and expand on some of these ideas.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • RedTigerRedTiger Posts: 5,608
    Thank you all for the comments. My main point in linking the article is that many here favor fiscal austerity, massive cut backs in spending. I wonder how many on this forum would vote thumbs up on this proposal for all U.S. Federal workers, heck for all State and Federal government workers?

    ... salaries of civil servants are slashed by up to 30% within a few months ... over 20% of public-sector workers face unemployment within the next four years – plus whole swathes of national assets are to be privatised before Christmas, with more job losses doubtless to follow ...

    That's an austerity budget, and I haven't heard much of that kind of discussion here in the U.S., certainly not during the recent debt ceiling talks. Understand that those cuts were passed into law by Greek Socialists! Those politicians would be far extreme left in U.S. politics. The most right wing politicians in Greece would likely be Democrats in the U.S. Again, I believe that Greece is a look into the crystal ball for this country, at least for a possible future. For the day when foreigners stop wanting U. S. Treasury bonds, or at least demand a reasonable rate of interest, and austerity budgets become a reality. The time table is debatable. Many on this forum, have called for crash after crash in the U.S. bond market and so far it has been a cry of wolf. Some day the wolf will come and he will be hungry.

    Those that would vote yes for austerity, must understand when such decisions are made, it often leads to massive layoffs elsewhere, in the cases cited 85% and 80%:

    In one factory, where a staff of 200 is now down to 30, the manager points to empty floors and idle machines ...

    ... Pater Daniel laughs, then holds up five fingers: there are five priests in Piraeus, and soon there will only be one [with a paying job]
  • stevekstevek Posts: 28,966 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Excellent analysis stevek, thank you for taking the time to write all that, I will reread it all again because I think I agree with everything you've written and want to maybe ask a question. There can be a tendency on this forum for some of the glib stone throwers to attack and belittle rational, big picture thinking that perhaps modifies and in some cases contradicts the reactionary dogma maybe inherent in a PM forum, it's driven away some pretty smart people in the past, hope you'll stick around a while and expand on some of these ideas. >>



    Thank you - I will stick around because I like coins and cards...as well as interesting discussions pertaining to precious metals.

    However, my feeling is if we don't wakeup soon, then we won't have much of a country in which to enjoy our great hobbies...and the political commentary is needed to evaluate what actions to take as far as precious metals investing. To ignore the political arena when evaluating precious metals investing, would be naive and foolhardy in my opinion.

    My overall viewpoint is that we are all Americans and need to stick together for our own good. I just hope we get our house in order as soon as possible, so we can focus on growing our great country and making it strong, rather than imploding it from within.
  • SpoolySpooly Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The US's future is runaway inflation. Of course, a devalued dollar is a hidden form of default and a hidden form of tax. >>

    derryb 8/3/11


    Another good signature line!
    Si vis pacem, para bellum

    In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,660 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm still trying to understand how one can predict "runaway inflation" or "hyperinflation" when there's a weak job market and a weak real estate market. Just how are aggregate prices of goods and services expected to get out of control when wages and house prices are stagnant?

    rather than being the source of uncontrolled inflation, aren't all those new dollars simply preventing massive deflation?

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,793 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I'm still trying to understand how one can predict "runaway inflation" or "hyperinflation" when there's a weak job market and a weak real estate market. Just how are aggregate prices of goods and services expected to get out of control when wages and house prices are stagnant?

    rather than being the source of uncontrolled inflation, aren't all those new dollars simply preventing massive deflation? >>


    Avoiding deflation is the Fed's goal, it scare's them to death. However, the massive dollar creation is inflation by definition - an increase in the money supply. Inflation leads to price inflation, history is full of examples. All of those new dollars will be the source of uncontrolled price inflation because the Fed will not be as successful in recalling them as they were in introducing them.

    Wages are stagnant because profits that would normally be used to expand businesses are being eaten by government regulation and taxes and a fear to invest in the business. There is little to no competition for labor, therefore the supply is high and the demand is low. House prices are correcting from a market that was overcrowded with unqualified buyers that became artificially qualifed thanks to governmental and banking programs that borderlined on fraud. Supply of houses is high and demand is low.

    Current deflation is simply the markets finding equilibrium with previously manipulated supply and demand. You can manipulate supply and demand only so far and then it revolts and returns to its true equilibrium, in this case, lower wages and prices. This will not however, affect price inflation down the road; all of those new dollars are still out there. Once those dollars get into the hands of consumers (either as cash or further personal debt) the price inflation will begin.

    What we have witnessed in the past five years is a massive transfer of wealth that was engineered and executed according to plan. The middle class, as planned, is left to deal with the ruin.

    "Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,822 ✭✭✭✭✭
    rather than being the source of uncontrolled inflation, aren't all those new dollars simply preventing massive deflation?

    Let me inject a bit of the "reactionary dogma maybe inherent in a PM forum" to suggest that those new dollars are being created *specifically* to prevent massive deflation.

    The only problem is that $1.14 Quadrillion of derivatives that nobody can seem to track or get a handle on, residing in who-knows-who's financials such that *nobody* can predict the results of the chain reaction that can occur at any time when someone wants to cash in their chips and go home.

    So how do you really know how much *new money* will be required to keep the system from imploding? You don't. Add to that the demographic and other problems that lie underneath this economic malaise, throw in a sprinkle of political class warfare, poor management skills and imaginary government economic number reporting - and it becomes impossible to know what the economy needs to survive.

    The cross currents are deflation, debt overhang, economic downturn, derivatives overhang, and poor management at the top. Inflation of the money supply ties into each of these problems as either the bandaid or the sad result of putting the bandaid on an arterial bleed.

    They throw money at the growing problems when they can't think of anything else - like actually rewarding work, savings and good management. Until they really get back to the basics of making a capitalistic system function as a capitalistic system, the dollar is toast and precious metals will continue to be a last resort chance at personal financial freedom. Not to be maudlin about it, but it's true.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Greece is the minor leagues when compared to a California or illinois.

    QE3, 4 and 5= supernova inflation. QE 3 and 4 are in the bag.

    I firmly believe that many confuse deleveraging with deflation. MJ
    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • stevekstevek Posts: 28,966 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The classic definition of inflation is too many dollars chasing too few goods...and that is correct. There are a few reasons why printing all this money has not lead yet to massive inflation. One is the Chinese and others are supplying us with low priced goods...the problem is we lose our jobs and productivity, and eventually our freedom and liberty because we become beholden to them.

    If we were producing these goods here, and the economy was strong with all these printed dollars, then inflation would be horrendous. So there lies the dilemma...continue as is, printing money and buying imported goods, and lose our freedom and liberty...or start producing these goods here and rampant inflation would begin. Unfortunately, printing money like this is a lose-lose scenario and those in government responsible for this should be ashamed of themselves because they probably know better.

    It is a bad situation we are in...we as a nation have become addicted to this process, but like all addictions, the best course is to stop the addictive behavior, endure the pain involved while ending the addiction, and then begin a true and successful recovery. It's not too late.
  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hyper inflation is a result of a major currency event. Cue 2011? Cue 2012? Sound at least plausible? Ummmmm....... Ignore at your own risk. Nice work Steve. MJ
    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • stevekstevek Posts: 28,966 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not as much a student of history as some here may be...but I think during the war for our independence, it was something like around 1/3 of the people wanted independence from the king, 1/3 still wanted the king, and 1/3 didn't care either way - those numbers may not be precise...but it's interesting that whatever were those numbers then, those numbers could be about the same now.

    I guess those who are beholden to government, wouldn't mind the Chinese or others taking over our government...as long as they get their food stamps and housing for free, or grossly profit from the government in various ways such as money or power, whoever is feeding them and taking care of them doesn't matter, they would support that. Of course the current Tea Party members would die first before allowing our freedom and liberty to be taken away, and I am with them. Then there are the others who don't fully comprehend the ramifications of all this or maybe don't care one way or the other.

    If in today's world there had to be only two categories of Americans, I believe it could be boiled down to this - Those who want a handout and those who want an opportunity. The Founding Fathers didn't promise us handouts, they promised us opportunity. I sure hope that Founding Father spirit rises up in the next election amongst the majority of Americans...and there is no doubt in my mind that the anticipated or expected results of the 2012 election, will do much to determine price fluctuations in precious metals.
  • stevekstevek Posts: 28,966 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'll make a quick prediction on record (yea like anyone has a clue - LOL)...if a Rick Perry - Marco Rubio ticket is a strong anticipated and expected winner of the 2012 election, along with the Republicans winning the Senate, then gold and silver will definitely go down...how much I have no idea, but it could go down a lot, I think.
  • storm888storm888 Posts: 11,701 ✭✭✭


    << <i>.......then gold and silver will definitely go down...how much I have no idea, but it could go down a lot, I think. >>




    ////////////////////////////////////

    I've been telling folks that for more than a year. Almost nobody
    gets it.

    The mere perception/belief that a shakeup in DC is "certain,"
    will tank metals HARD.

    That will present an opportunity to gamble and/or to take profits.








    Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,793 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,822 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm really not so sure about that, storm. I used to think that, but remember how Volker had to attack inflation? At this point, think what would happen if interest rates were brought up to 14% and spending was cut. The economy isn't in great shape already. I don't think they'll do it - even if it were a Perry/Rubio administration.

    The classic approach that almost all politicians use to fund overspending is inflating the money supply, and then to throw a hail Mary - hoping that the economy will play catch-up and bail them out while they eventually come to the realization that they have no money left to spend.

    Emotions do affect markets, but in this case the case for gold has gone viral worldwide and it will take more than one election cycle to kill it, I think. Perry and Rubio can't cure the debt and derivative mess any more than Obama and Geithner can, although they might actually make a stab at solving it - instead of exascerbating it like these charlatans are currently doing. My opinion.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • storm888storm888 Posts: 11,701 ✭✭✭
    "...Emotions do affect markets, but in this case the case for gold has gone viral worldwide and it will take more than one election cycle to kill it, I think...."

    /////////////////

    For clarity:

    IMV, no pol can solve the problems.

    As I said, the "mere perception" that a savior is coming will
    likely do the price damage. That damage will be shortlived,
    but it will look spooky.





    Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
  • calleochocalleocho Posts: 1,569 ✭✭
    Japan baby ...thats where we are headed.
    "Women should be obscene and not heard. "
    Groucho Marx
  • stevekstevek Posts: 28,966 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Points taken...and I think it all depends on again...whether or not the newly elected political leaders do what's right for our country or what is right for them. And we all know that polticians usually, if not virtually always do what's right for them, and too often that's not what is right for our country.

    But I dunno...this upcoming election has a different tone to it that I have never witnessed before. Let's look at the facts - The Tea Party and Republicans made tremendous gains in the 2010 elections. Of course the liberal media would like to have you forget about all that. But I see no discernable reason why the trend shouldn't continue, because the economy is still in the exact same predicament. I realize that the left will get more turnout for a presidential election, but hopefully the right can counter that with increased turnout and support from independents.

    I just think the Tea Party was perhaps a little burnt out after 2010 after putting all that time and energy into a tremendous success and victory, and waking up and realizing that although it was great that the current administration could at least now be stifled, that complete and total Tea Party ideas still couldn't get done with liberal control of the Senate and Presidency...and that was evident in the recent debt ceiling debate...the Tea Party has influence but couldn't do everything it wanted.

    I do believe this time around, and I hope I'm not being naive, that if Tea Party ideas can gain control of government, that a new era will begin for America. It will include a real trend towards energy independence creating millions of new jobs, eliminating stifling regulations and taxes on business creating millions of new jobs, and allowing personal freedoms and liberties to flourish as they should...all of which will bring extrordinary revenue into the government coffers. It will include common sense solutions to entitlement reform and other needed measures such as what Paul Ryan introduced. And yes, the deadbeats and the government unions and the trial lawyers will beatch and moan about it to no end on their soapboxes...but if they were smart, they would just get out of the way, allow Tea Party ideas to grow and flourish, our country will become markedly healthier and stronger, and then these people who are now against Tea Party ideas would actually be much better off in the long run living in a healthy country, than living in a dying country.
  • renman95renman95 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Points taken...and I think it all depends on again...whether or not the newly elected political leaders do what's right for our country or what is right for them. And we all know that polticians usually, if not virtually always do what's right for them, and too often that's not what is right for our country.

    But I dunno...this upcoming election has a different tone to it that I have never witnessed before. Let's look at the facts - The Tea Party and Republicans made tremendous gains in the 2010 elections. Of course the liberal media would like to have you forget about all that. But I see no discernable reason why the trend shouldn't continue, because the economy is still in the exact same predicament. I realize that the left will get more turnout for a presidential election, but hopefully the right can counter that with increased turnout and support from independents.

    I just think the Tea Party was perhaps a little burnt out after 2010 after putting all that time and energy into a tremendous success and victory, and waking up and realizing that although it was great that the current administration could at least now be stifled, that complete and total Tea Party ideas still couldn't get done with liberal control of the Senate and Presidency...and that was evident in the recent debt ceiling debate...the Tea Party has influence but couldn't do everything it wanted.

    I do believe this time around, and I hope I'm not being naive, that if Tea Party ideas can gain control of government, that a new era will begin for America. It will include a real trend towards energy independence creating millions of new jobs, eliminating stifling regulations and taxes on business creating millions of new jobs, and allowing personal freedoms and liberties to flourish as they should...all of which will bring extrordinary revenue into the government coffers. It will include common sense solutions to entitlement reform and other needed measures such as what Paul Ryan introduced. And yes, the deadbeats and the government unions and the trial lawyers will beatch and moan about it to no end on their soapboxes...but if they were smart, they would just get out of the way, allow Tea Party ideas to grow and flourish, our country will become markedly healthier and stronger, and then these people who are now against Tea Party ideas would actually be much better off in the long run living in a healthy country, than living in a dying country. >>



    //

    And this is why the Tea Party is THE lightning rod. The entrenched D's, R's and P's don't like it a bit because the TP's are not part of their program....which is the socialization of America. So the Tea Party will be isolated even more and blamed for everything that is wrong in our economy and culture. Just look at how much it was reported that the Tea Party got everything they wanted with the debt deal. Not by a long shot. Allowing our debt to go from $14.4T to $24.4T just to "save $2.4T" to arrive at $22.0T at some point is not getting our way.
  • gsa1fangsa1fan Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭
    I went to a Tea Party rally in 2009 July 4 @ Southfork ranch, Texas. They seemed way more convicted then.

    Now I'm afraid they have gotten to close to Republicans.

    For total change we the Tea Party need a total separate party that stays the course. JMHO.

    100% Made in America. Take care of our own!!! Again just the way I see things.

    Tea Party
    Avid collector of GSA's.
  • metalmeistermetalmeister Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In America about 20% work for government
    I Greece its closer to 25%
    Draw your own conclusions
    email: ccacollectibles@yahoo.com

    100% Positive BST transactions
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