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Credit Card Fraud Alert (we got beat on this one)
nencoin
Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭✭
First the alert, then I'll explain how they were able to beat us on this one. Do NOT ship any coins to the following address:
925 Roland Ave.
Scranton, PA 18504
We received a $2800 order online. New customer, payment by credit card. We had the customer sign a credit card authorization form, confirmed they were placing the order. They sent us a scan of the front and back of the credit card. The signature on the card matched the signature on the form. We got an EXACT match on the credit card and the billing/shipping address. We called Capital One twice to confirm the address was indeed correct and that there had been no suspicious activity on the account (turns out there was, but they failed to mention that to us.)
We run the charge, it goes through, we ship the coins. Couple of weeks later we receive a chargeback notice saying that the owner of the card did not authorize the charge. We've got documentation showing that indeed they DID authorize the charge, and we send everything off. The funds are then returned to us. We think all is good until we get a further notice saying the Capital One was going to take the matter to some Visa arbitration thing, and if Visa did not rule in our favor, we'd be out: 1) the original amount of the charge and 2) $500 arbitration fee.
Suddenly a few more details come out and apparently Capital One mailed a replacement card to someone but to the wrong address. Whether it was a mistake or they were hacked is not clear. So the person receives a card they shouldn't have, they activate it, they sign it, use it, and bingo....free coins. Our cc processor says there is no way Visa will find in our favor. And get this...the account still gets an exact match on the bogus address. Lastly, the reason a replacement card was mailed in the first place was because there had been suspicious activity on the account.
925 Roland Ave.
Scranton, PA 18504
We received a $2800 order online. New customer, payment by credit card. We had the customer sign a credit card authorization form, confirmed they were placing the order. They sent us a scan of the front and back of the credit card. The signature on the card matched the signature on the form. We got an EXACT match on the credit card and the billing/shipping address. We called Capital One twice to confirm the address was indeed correct and that there had been no suspicious activity on the account (turns out there was, but they failed to mention that to us.)
We run the charge, it goes through, we ship the coins. Couple of weeks later we receive a chargeback notice saying that the owner of the card did not authorize the charge. We've got documentation showing that indeed they DID authorize the charge, and we send everything off. The funds are then returned to us. We think all is good until we get a further notice saying the Capital One was going to take the matter to some Visa arbitration thing, and if Visa did not rule in our favor, we'd be out: 1) the original amount of the charge and 2) $500 arbitration fee.
Suddenly a few more details come out and apparently Capital One mailed a replacement card to someone but to the wrong address. Whether it was a mistake or they were hacked is not clear. So the person receives a card they shouldn't have, they activate it, they sign it, use it, and bingo....free coins. Our cc processor says there is no way Visa will find in our favor. And get this...the account still gets an exact match on the bogus address. Lastly, the reason a replacement card was mailed in the first place was because there had been suspicious activity on the account.
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<< <i>With the amount of problems you guys have been having with credit cards kind of surprised your still taking them.
It's a necessity for relatively high volume online retail. And we rarely get beat; I just have been posting all the warnings of the bad cards for other sellers. We still hear stories of other guys getting taken by the very ones we're posting about.
Having dealt with you guys on several occasions and always being pleased, I am very sorry this has happened.
(Edited for a typing error for the fact I'm using my left hand because I broke my collar bone on my good side. )
That Visa Arbitration thing is an unsettling practice called "Mandatory Arbitration" which is discussed in the documentary film, " Hot Coffee."
The use of Mandatory Arbitration by companies is growing in the US. The practice basically takes away the right of a person to seek a remedy in US Civil Court. Instead, anyone seeking redress will be presenting their case to an Arbitrator picked by the company that did them wrong and with whom the offending company does alot of business with. It doesn't sound impartial to me.
I recommend the viewing of the " Hot Coffee " movie which is currently being shown by HBO. The movie gets it's title from the infamous Macdonalds "spilled coffee case" and exposes the blatant misreporting of that case's material facts as well as the stories of other disturbing cases that illustrate the days of " having our day in court", unless protected, will be gone soon. In the OP's case, Visa has figured out a way to shift the cost of fraudulant activity from themselves to the OP. HM
<< <i>
<< <i>With the amount of problems you guys have been having with credit cards kind of surprised your still taking them.
It's a necessity for relatively high volume online retail. And we rarely get beat; I just have been posting all the warnings of the bad cards for other sellers. We still hear stories of other guys getting taken by the very ones we're posting about. >>
Boy oh boy that really sucks. I would easily become a supporter of that middle east law where they take a hand when it comes to this stuff. I'd like the do more than that to the people who ripped us off for 100K months ago.
Chris, in your opinion why are you opting to go thru a regular cc processor instead of paypal? Some people have told me that paypal is a safer processor to use. I used to have a regular "mainstream" credit card processor but decided not to support them with the monthly fees and since I don't take credit cards for the vast majority of our coins it never occured to me that maybe there's other reasons to look elsewhere. Have you ever accepted paypal ? What's your opinion?
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
BTW, I personally do not think I would ever provide another person a scan of my credit card front and back. Sounds risky on my part to do so.
<< <i>Chris, in your opinion why are you opting to go thru a regular cc processor instead of paypal? Some people have told me that paypal is a safer processor to use. I used to have a regular "mainstream" credit card processor but decided not to support them with the monthly fees and since I don't take credit cards for the vast majority of our coins it never occured to me that maybe there's other reasons to look elsewhere. Have you ever accepted paypal ? What's your opinion? >>
We would lose too much business if we stopped taking credit cards directly. We hear often from people that they do not and will not ever use Paypal. Particularly the somewhat old school collectors who don't collect coins over the web. And we get pretty good rates on many of the various types of cards we take. If we have to put up with the occasional loss every couple of years, it's still worth it to accept cards. Each loss teaches us even more security precautions to take.
We do gladly accept Paypal. (Although you hear plenty of horror stories about getting burned there.) Bottom line, it's almost always the merchant who is gonna get screwed. Not the consumer, not the bank, but the merchant. Until laws are passed which place more culpability on the banks, I don't see the situation changing.
I don't want my comments to sound like I'm whining about credit cards and Paypal, because I'm not. We wouldn't be doing half the business we do now without them. And losses like the one we just experienced are unfortunately just part of doing business. I just wanted to warn others about the Scranton address but also about yet another way they can get burned.
How can they deny their culpability?
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
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<< <i>IMHO, because Capital One neglected to give you all of the information, it should be their loss.
How can they deny their culpability? >>
Ever see their ads on TV? Those guys run the company.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I hope you can avoid arbitration and proceed directly to Civil court, I don't like what I'm hearing. $500 for what? I'd refuse to pay it. If they won't hear the case, go to Court.
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Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>And we rarely get beat; I just have been posting all the warnings of the bad cards for other sellers. We still hear stories of other guys getting taken by the very ones we're posting about. >>
Sorry to hear about yet another scam, and that even being extremely vigilant didn't prevent it. Also, I (and probably many others) are glad you take the time to post these warnings on the forum.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
<< <i>I've been receiving at least one solicitation by mail per week for the last 3 years from Capital One, to apply for credit with them. I'm stacking the pile of unopened apps. just to see how long they will take to recognize that I won't be responding. Ever. >>
The best thing to do with those is to take the return envelope, stuff it full of heavy crap and send it to them(without anything on there to identify yourself)....you can get the postage to them to cost over $1!!! If you have 50 of those and if everyone did the same thing...their postage fees would be astronomical AND they would not be getting any new accounts/ROI from the mailing effort. If 100,000 people did this it would cost them over $5,000,000. Even something like this would be small but it would get their attention.
Then if everyone took this a step further and filled out 100% bogus paper work...fake names, fake addresses, etc etc...then it would cost the company closer to $20,000,000 because each application would be looked at, entered into the system and scrutinized by humans costing them a TON of money in the terms of man hours.
You could create an entire campaign on Facebook to gather support, set up a Twitter account, start a blog, get on the news etc....1 person can make a difference. I think I have a few credit card apps laying in my stack of mail from just this week. Who wants to set it all up and start?
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
From what Chris wrote in the OP, there was fraudulent activity and a new card was sent TO A DIFFERENT ADDRESS THAN THE MAIN ACCOUNT HOLDER (ie....sent to the crook's address he wanted) and that's when the problem started.
Chris, I've bought from you guys a couple of times, with CC, and I have had no problems and have appreciated working with you (and, you guys have had no problems with my CC
Best wishes to you and NEN
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
The cost of doing business suxs sometime, and as a result the honest people get stuck footing the bill.
The one thing i have learned is when someone is able to debit your account, they get to change the rules from time to time as they see fit.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
<< <i>I've been receiving at least one solicitation by mail per week for the last 3 years from Capital One, to apply for credit with them. I'm stacking the pile of unopened apps. just to see how long they will take to recognize that I won't be responding. Ever. >>
The best thing to do with those is to take the return envelope, stuff it full of heavy crap and send it to them(without anything on there to identify yourself)....you can get the postage to them to cost over $1!!! If you have 50 of those and if everyone did the same thing...their postage fees would be astronomical AND they would not be getting any new accounts/ROI from the mailing effort. If 100,000 people did this it would cost them over $5,000,000. Even something like this would be small but it would get their attention.
Then if everyone took this a step further and filled out 100% bogus paper work...fake names, fake addresses, etc etc...then it would cost the company closer to $20,000,000 because each application would be looked at, entered into the system and scrutinized by humans costing them a TON of money in the terms of man hours.
You could create an entire campaign on Facebook to gather support, set up a Twitter account, start a blog, get on the news etc....1 person can make a difference. I think I have a few credit card apps laying in my stack of mail from just this week. Who wants to set it all up and start?
I like the way you think
<< <i>
<< <i>I've been receiving at least one solicitation by mail per week for the last 3 years from Capital One, to apply for credit with them. I'm stacking the pile of unopened apps. just to see how long they will take to recognize that I won't be responding. Ever. >>
The best thing to do with those is to take the return envelope, stuff it full of heavy crap and send it to them(without anything on there to identify yourself)....you can get the postage to them to cost over $1!!! If you have 50 of those and if everyone did the same thing...their postage fees would be astronomical AND they would not be getting any new accounts/ROI from the mailing effort. If 100,000 people did this it would cost them over $5,000,000. Even something like this would be small but it would get their attention.
Then if everyone took this a step further and filled out 100% bogus paper work...fake names, fake addresses, etc etc...then it would cost the company closer to $20,000,000 because each application would be looked at, entered into the system and scrutinized by humans costing them a TON of money in the terms of man hours.
You could create an entire campaign on Facebook to gather support, set up a Twitter account, start a blog, get on the news etc....1 person can make a difference. I think I have a few credit card apps laying in my stack of mail from just this week. Who wants to set it all up and start?
Careful: Tortious Interference
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<< <i>With the amount of problems you guys have been having with credit cards kind of surprised your still taking them.
I agree. I see this user having a problem just about once a month now.
<< <i>I'm not surprised that Capitol One is involved. >>
They send out so many of those pre-approved applications, if only the paper was soft and absorbent we could put them to use!
The way they send them with the name and info, all it takes is one gets mis-delivered to someone that sends it in with their address and goes shopping.
For them to stick it to the merchant is plain wrong!
Now the tables have turned and consumers are actually able to use Arbitration to their advantage. Cap1 had the most favorable arbitration provisions mostly unused by the consumer until the demise of NAF.
Cap1 agreement for consumer Arb's said Cap1 would pay all arb fees, win or lose, and each side would pay their own atty fees. So what are the arb fees? There is now only AAA and JAMS. Jams is $800 initial case Mngt fee, then a $5,000 retainer, and Cap1 pays for everything, win or lose. That's an expensive proposition when they sue a consumer for a credit card debt of say 4-10K. So what happens is Cap1 sues for unpaid CC debt, Consumer elects arbitration which is mandatory once elected, and it makes them think twice about settling for a realistic amount during a down economy.
Although I've never handled a commercial arb, I believe the fees for commercial arb's are to be split 50/50, nonetheless a large expense and certainly more than $500.
Just google NAF and Minnesota attorney general for a great read on how the banks have been cheating for years...
<< <i>
<< <i>I've been receiving at least one solicitation by mail per week for the last 3 years from Capital One, to apply for credit with them. I'm stacking the pile of unopened apps. just to see how long they will take to recognize that I won't be responding. Ever. >>
The best thing to do with those is to take the return envelope, stuff it full of heavy crap and send it to them(without anything on there to identify yourself)....you can get the postage to them to cost over $1!!! If you have 50 of those and if everyone did the same thing...their postage fees would be astronomical AND they would not be getting any new accounts/ROI from the mailing effort. If 100,000 people did this it would cost them over $5,000,000. Even something like this would be small but it would get their attention.
Then if everyone took this a step further and filled out 100% bogus paper work...fake names, fake addresses, etc etc...then it would cost the company closer to $20,000,000 because each application would be looked at, entered into the system and scrutinized by humans costing them a TON of money in the terms of man hours.
You could create an entire campaign on Facebook to gather support, set up a Twitter account, start a blog, get on the news etc....1 person can make a difference. I think I have a few credit card apps laying in my stack of mail from just this week. Who wants to set it all up and start?
A long time friend of mine wife passed away. He still was getting CC apps mailed to her.
He filled out the app with this
Occupation..........Deceased
Address ..............Conway Cemetery
Card was issued
Larry L.