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A Question on the Rules of Baseball

melvin289melvin289 Posts: 3,019 ✭
in Sports Talk
I was listening to Braves pre-game show on the radio coming to work tonight and they mentioned that you cannot steal 1st base. There is only one way that I can think of that a person can steal first. They would have to do it from 2nd base. Has that ever been done and is there a rule against it? If a team had runners on 2nd and 3rd and the guy on 2nd broke for 1st can you imagine what the catcher might do? What would the man on 3rd do? Besides the manager having a heart attack would that be legal?

Ron
Collect for the love of the hobby, the beauty of the coins, and enjoy the ride.

Comments

  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,046 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Actually, it might be legal...because...if a runner on first sees a long fly ball from the batter and thinks it's going to be a hit, and runs past second base but the ball is caught, he can legally try to run back to first base...so crossing second base doesn't matter.

    Then again...there probably is some rule against it - in any event, I don't think it would fool a MLB catcher enough to give a runner trying to steal home any significant added advantage.
  • jeffcbayjeffcbay Posts: 8,949 ✭✭✭✭
    Modern rules forbid going backwards on the base paths in order to "confuse the defense or make a travesty of the game".
  • melvin289melvin289 Posts: 3,019 ✭


    << <i>Modern rules forbid going backwards on the base paths in order to "confuse the defense or make a travesty of the game". >>



    Thank you jeffcbay. I really didn't know the answer to the question and was just wondering.

    Ron
    Collect for the love of the hobby, the beauty of the coins, and enjoy the ride.
  • mlbfan2mlbfan2 Posts: 3,115 ✭✭✭
    It has been done, but it's been illegal for many decades.
  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Going backwards around the bases has been illegal since the 1960s after Jimmy Piersall ran the bases backward in celebration of his 100th career HR in a game with the Mets in 1963.

    The only time it is legal is on a caught flyball. If a player is on 2nd, for example, and mistakenly takes off thinking a fly ball will not be caught and rounds 3rd, he must re-touch 3rd base on the way back to 2nd base.

    Tabe
  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,046 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Going backwards around the bases has been illegal since the 1960s after Jimmy Piersall ran the bases backward in celebration of his 100th career HR in a game with the Mets in 1963.

    The only time it is legal is on a caught flyball. If a player is on 2nd, for example, and mistakenly takes off thinking a fly ball will not be caught and rounds 3rd, he must re-touch 3rd base on the way back to 2nd base.

    Tabe >>



    Just a note because I think you may have misinterpreted what Piersall did based on the discussion - He ran around the bases the correct way, but did it running backwards IE face backwards instead of face foreward...he didn't run to third base from home plate or he would have been called out...he ran from home plate around the bases in the correct order.
  • jay0791jay0791 Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭✭
    It is illegal. The rule is called 'mockery of the game.'
    If you miss a base you cannot proced to any base ahead of you w/o going back and touching the base you missed. You must do so in the order you traveled I believe. The runner is declared out after play ends if he fails to touch a base.
    In different baseball leagues the rules are different as to if the out is declared by the umpire after the opposite team protests the play or the umpire just sees it and calls it on his own.
    On mockery.....Not sure if the umpire calls himout immediately and the ball is declared dead ( I would think this is the case to avoid any possible confusion and not affect any
    play that this could be involved with as a disstraction) or after the play.
    Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets
    1948-76 Topps FB Sets
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    1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
  • markj111markj111 Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭
    It was legal at one time, but has been against the rules for many decades. Germany Schaefer did it.
  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>
    Just a note because I think you may have misinterpreted what Piersall did based on the discussion - He ran around the bases the correct way, but did it running backwards IE face backwards instead of face foreward...he didn't run to third base from home plate or he would have been called out...he ran from home plate around the bases in the correct order. >>


    If that's what he did then, yes, I was misinformed. I was always told, and have read, that he ran to 3rd/2nd/1st in that order. Guess I was wrong!


    Tabe
  • BrickBrick Posts: 4,984 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I thought that was the case as well. Learn something new everyday.
    Collecting 1960 Topps Baseball in PSA 8
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    Ralph

  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,046 ✭✭✭✭✭
    << I thought that was the case as well. Learn something new everyday. >>


    "craziness" such as that sometimes is tough to imagine, which I guess is why it's called crazy.
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    How about this scenario, runner on second takes a lead. Pitcher throws to fielder attempting a pick off.

    Runner dives back to base while ball is overthrown. The runner while diving back lands on the first base side of the bag.

    SS catches over throw and now the runner is in a rundown between 1st and 2nd base. In this case I believe the runner could wind up safely

    at 1st base. It does not answer the OP's question, it simply shows a way where a runner on 2nd could wind up at 1st.


    Steve
    Good for you.
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Stevek not sure I fully understand your post, but if a runner from 1st touches 2nd base he must touch 2nd on his way back to 1st.

    If he fails doing so he can be called out.
    Good for you.
  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,046 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Stevek not sure I fully understand your post, but if a runner from 1st touches 2nd base he must touch 2nd on his way back to 1st.

    If he fails doing so he can be called out. >>



    I wouldn't have thought that...I would have thought that as long as he stayed in the basepath running back to first base that he wouldn't need to touch second base again on the way back...but I'm not at all sure on that, so I'll take your word for it...it does make sense that would be the rule.
  • mlbfan2mlbfan2 Posts: 3,115 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Runner dives back to base while ball is overthrown. The runner while diving back lands on the first base side of the bag.

    SS catches over throw and now the runner is in a rundown between 1st and 2nd base. >>



    Any ump that knows the rules would call him out as soon as he started heading for 1st base.
  • mlbfan2mlbfan2 Posts: 3,115 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Stevek not sure I fully understand your post, but if a runner from 1st touches 2nd base he must touch 2nd on his way back to 1st.

    If he fails doing so he can be called out. >>



    He was talking about a runner that had already acquired 2nd base (before the pickoff attempt). So, he cannot run towards 1st base, whether or not he touches 2nd base beforehand.
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Stevek

    If a runner touches a bag, say on a fly ball (the hit and run was on) and he reached and passed 2b,
    he must re touch 2b on his way back to first if the ball was caught.




    MLB, if the SS (in my scenario) is in front of 2b (1b side) the runner has no choice but to head towards 1st.

    As long as he touched 2b during the PO attempt he could conceivably wind up at 1st base, the play is after all live.



    edited to add: I'm not 100% that my scenario is correct. I'm simply asking if it is possible, I should have been clear.

    as for retouching the bases, that is a fact.

    Have a happy 4th everyone!

    Good for you.
  • mlbfan2mlbfan2 Posts: 3,115 ✭✭✭


    << <i>MLB, if the SS (in my scenario) is in front of 2b (1b side) the runner has no choice but to head towards 1st.

    As long as he touched 2b during the PO attempt he could conceivably wind up at 1st base, the play is after all live.
    >>



    No, that's not possible. The runner's only legal choice is to try and touch 2nd base. Running towards 1st base is not permitted in that situation. You cannot run towards 1st base if you were on 2nd base before the pitch (or pick-off attempt).

    It's somewhat similar to a batter that bunts a ball to the 1st baseman and the 1st baseman tries to tag the batter with the ball. Did you know that the batter cannot run back towards home plate, and cannot even STOP? If he does, he's out.
  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It's somewhat similar to a batter that bunts a ball to the 1st baseman and the 1st baseman tries to tag the batter with the ball. Did you know that the batter cannot run back towards home plate, and cannot even STOP? If he does, he's out. >>


    Do you have a citation for this? I was just reading the official MLB rules and didn't see anything like what you're describing.

    Tabe
  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,046 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>MLB, if the SS (in my scenario) is in front of 2b (1b side) the runner has no choice but to head towards 1st.

    As long as he touched 2b during the PO attempt he could conceivably wind up at 1st base, the play is after all live.
    >>



    No, that's not possible. The runner's only legal choice is to try and touch 2nd base. Running towards 1st base is not permitted in that situation. You cannot run towards 1st base if you were on 2nd base before the pitch (or pick-off attempt).

    It's somewhat similar to a batter that bunts a ball to the 1st baseman and the 1st baseman tries to tag the batter with the ball. Did you know that the batter cannot run back towards home plate, and cannot even STOP? If he does, he's out. >>



    <<< Did you know that the batter cannot run back towards home plate, and cannot even STOP? If he does, he's out >>>

    However, it would still be a smart move to do that, if you're gonna be out anyway, in order to give another runner a better chance to advance.
  • mlbfan2mlbfan2 Posts: 3,115 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>It's somewhat similar to a batter that bunts a ball to the 1st baseman and the 1st baseman tries to tag the batter with the ball. Did you know that the batter cannot run back towards home plate, and cannot even STOP? If he does, he's out. >>


    Do you have a citation for this? I was just reading the official MLB rules and didn't see anything like what you're describing.

    Tabe >>



    Sorry, I am wrong. I heard a baseball announcer say it one time and I foolishly believed him. image I found the rule in my ASA softball rulebook (Batter-runner is out when: "batter-runner moves back toward home plate to avoid or delay a tag by a fielder"), but it is legal in baseball. Merely stopping is legal in both baseball and softball.

    In baseball, the batter wouldn't be called out unless he retreats towards home plate and reaches it.
    MLB Umpire Manual
    6.23
    NOTE: In situations where the batter-runner gets in a rundown between first and home, if the
    batter-runner retreats and reaches home plate, he shall be declared out.
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