Ambro got me thinking... What are circulated coins?

llafoe

Ambro posted how he received some 2011 cents in change. He felt they were MS68, but believed they would be graded MS64... then went on a diatribe whining about Kool-Aid and how Feuchtwanger's were the only TRUE US coinage, but I digress...

What are the true beginnings of circulated coinage? MS60-MS62 are normally unattractive coins... are they actually circulated coins that got beat up, but don't show wear on the high points? Are AU55-AU58 actually coins with weak strikes and never saw commerce?

For this discussion, let's assume a coin has circulated through commerce a half dozen times... we're told to believe AU58 is the beginnings; what do you believe?

Sonorandesertrat

The problem with this post is that the meaning of actual grade needs clarification. A coin with visible wear and a grade above MS60 has been market graded. The conundrum is that market grades are not constant. I have Capped Bust coinage, market graded MS62 when the market was on a tear, that I have had regraded. The coins now reside in AU55-AU58 slabs, which are what the grades should have been all along.

llafoe

<< <i>The problem with this post is that the meaning of actual grade needs clarification. A coin with visible wear and a grade above MS60 has been market graded. The conundrum is that market grades are not constant. I have Capped Bust coinage, market graded MS62 when the market was on a tear, that I have had regraded. The coins now reside in AU55-AU58 slabs, which are what the grades should have been all along. >>



I guess that's the real issue... technical grading vs market grading.

Zoins

<< <i>

<< <i>The problem with this post is that the meaning of actual grade needs clarification. A coin with visible wear and a grade above MS60 has been market graded. The conundrum is that market grades are not constant. I have Capped Bust coinage, market graded MS62 when the market was on a tear, that I have had regraded. The coins now reside in AU55-AU58 slabs, which are what the grades should have been all along. >>

I guess that's the real issue... technical grading vs market grading. >>

There are a number of proponents for market grading and grading AU coins as 60+. I believe the ANA, top TPGs, and CAC all use / recognize market grading. To avoid confusion for this type of grading, I think a decent compromise would be to use the AU description with the numerical grade, e.g. AU62, AU63, etc.

LindeDad

I was always taught that if it was handled by bare hands in normal commerce it then became AU.
But that is just my thought on them.

ambro51

I think at the AU55 level the actual removal/displacement of metal starts. High points wear physically, not just a mere rub as in 58. MS will show the high points with unbroken luster, but from 60 onwards differing degrees of contact marks, luster loss and 'flash' drive the grade.

BTW, when I mentioned the 2011 cents I got...that was all of the girl behind the counter at WaWa handing me a few pennies from the drawer, she had just dumped a full roll in there. So, in the actual context I suppose you could call that circulation, but only in the strictest sense.

Zoins

<< <i>I think at the AU55 level the actual removal/displacement of metal starts. High points wear physically, not just a mere rub as in 58. MS will show the high points with unbroken luster, but from 60 onwards differing degrees of contact marks, luster loss and 'flash' drive the grade.

BTW, when I mentioned the 2011 cents I got...that was all of the girl behind the counter at WaWa handing me a few pennies from the drawer, she had just dumped a full roll in there. So, in the actual context I suppose you could call that circulation, but only in the strictest sense. >>

It could be still "Mint State" as MS doesn't mean "at the mint"

keets

the trouble with the AU-MS swing grades in my opinion is that they tend to strongly emphasize the fact that a grade is an OPINION and is based on the interpretation of the coin's surface quality by the grader(s). characteristics such as weak strike vs actual wear, unstruck planchet flaws vs. post strike contact marks and interpreting luster all come to fine pivot point we know as MS60. to my way of thinking, the mere fact that there are so few MS60-MS62 graded coins from a TPG such as PCGS from a percentage standpoint tells me they are doing a pretty fair job of interpretation. i also feel that the most difficult thing to decipher at this grading juntion is luster------full, incomplete, broken or worn.

Zoins

<< <i>there are so few MS60-MS62 graded coins from a TPG such as PCGS >>

I've seen quite a few PCGS MS60 and MS61 graded world coins, but not US coins. I always thought TPGs avoided low MS grades for US coins because of the stigma US coin collectors associated the grades.

TwoSides2aCoin

If a coin is circulated, it's almost uncirculated.

llafoe

So, once there's a break in luster... it becomes a circulated coin?

fiveNdime

<< <i>...handing me a few pennies from the drawer, she had just dumped a full roll in there. So, in the actual context I suppose you could call that circulation, but only in the strictest sense. >>


is that any different than getting the roll from the bank yourself?
hasnt been 'touched' in commerce, but was circulated into the system.

its a vicious circle

19Lyds

<< <i>So, once there's a break in luster... it becomes a circulated coin? >>

I believe so since the line is originaliy of mint luster or appearance and not hits, dings, scrapes or other surface blemishes which can occur during and immediately after the minting process.

The reason I say this is simply because a weakly struck coin may not have high points but the apparent wear on those high points will still have original mint luster or better yet, a lack of "dullness".

It should also be noted that circulation is always referred to as a state of "wear" and not really whether or not the coin has "circulated" between a couple of folks.
Of course if folks want to believe that circulated vs uncirculated is being untouched by human hands, then they need to watch some video's of the minting process where press operators quite frequently touch the coins after they are minted. I'm sure that touching occurs during the bagging and/or rolling processes as well.

Baley

Any coin including MS70 can be "circulated," if by that term one means "spent," if the coin shows no evidence of wear.

Conversely, the possibility exists for pocket pieces that would grade no better than Poor-1, that have never seen ANY circulation.

One of the great (and largely misunderstood) problems of coin grading is the AU/MS dividing line.

Often I think it would be better to get away from the words altogether and just grade coins using numbers that relate to the desirability of the surface conditions and appearance

crypto79

I tend to think MS60-62 gets a bad rap. An MS61 Small Eagle dollar would be a very cool coin whereas a MS 63 Ike is kind of junky and common. I have a lot of MS60-62 coins that have what I call charter and I love them all.

I voted AU55 as Ambro said that's where the metal starts to vanish

ambro51

Take a brand new cent, rub it hard on your jeans, and you break through the mint bloom luster on the high points and you instantly have an AU58

STONE

<< <i>Take a brand new cent, rub it hard on your jeans, and you break through the mint bloom luster on the high points and you instantly have an AU58 >>


Although it won't necessarily grade 58, it could still go in the 60's (and has on many instances)!

19Lyds

<< <i>

<< <i>Take a brand new cent, rub it hard on your jeans, and you break through the mint bloom luster on the high points and you instantly have an AU58 >>


Although it won't necessarily grade 58, it could still go in the 60's (and has on many instances)! >>

Along with a nice finger print to boot!