New Legend Market Report posted

JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 12,795 ✭✭✭✭
Walker Proof Digital Album





Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
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Comments

  • She must be stress-free now that she's not going to Long Beach... it was the most mellow Legend Market Report I've read! image
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  • WTCGWTCG Posts: 9,387 ✭✭
    Tik...tok...tik...tok...

    I'm just counting down the time until Frank makes a post about something as irrelevant or asinine as the spelling or something similar while completely avoiding the topic at hand in the report.

    As for her report, I believe high value coin sales don't make the front pages mostly because they aren't considered "mainstream" enough to have appeal to the masses. Art and antiques carry more weight with the typical person than a coin does.
    Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup
    Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"


  • << <i>Tick...tock...tick...tock... >>



    Fixed it BF (before Frank)! image
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  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭
    Maybe I can answer some of her questions. Differences are these - Paintings and Statues are *BIG*...rich people put them in their GIGANTIC HOMES as trophies...have lavish parties and show these things off...similar are the watches and jewels...rich people get to wear their trophies and show them off at the lavish events and parties.

    Coins on the other hand are small, in a small holder and sit in a SDB. They are only "shown off" at great expense to the owner through the rare coin show display.

    This is WHY! Here are the answers. Glad I could help. image
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64.

    Working on a TONED 1950-1964 PROOF SET. What do you have for me? image

  • WTCGWTCG Posts: 9,387 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Tick...tock...tick...tock... >>



    Fixed it BF (before Frank)! image >>



    Nah, that's how Ke$ha spells it so...
    Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup
    Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"


  • << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Tick...tock...tick...tock... >>



    Fixed it BF (before Frank)! image >>



    Nah, that's how Ke$ha spells it so... >>



    I guess you're right, after all, We R Who We R! image
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  • coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 16,643 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Maybe I can answer some of her questions. Differences are these - Paintings and Statues are *BIG*...rich people put them in their GIGANTIC HOMES as trophies...have lavish parties and show these things off...similar are the watches and jewels...rich people get to wear their trophies and show them off at the lavish events and parties.

    Coins on the other hand are small, in a small holder and sit in a SDB. They are only "shown off" at great expense to the owner through the rare coin show display.

    This is WHY! Here are the answers. Glad I could help. image >>








    I could not agree more with your statement!


    I design/build homes for many wealthy people in the Los Angelus area
    and it is very true, they show off the art, cars and jewels. One customer had a specially
    made couch from Ralph Lauren(himself) and named it "Ralph" ......... Took me a few minutes
    to figure that one outimage

    And have even done a few coin dealers homes.......none showed me there " private collections"

    This is my own experiences.......others may varyimageimage
  • CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 8,675 ✭✭✭
    Easily summarized - Laura is bullish on very high end rare coins.

    Agree or disagree, she is putting herself out there every few weeks.

    Otter dealers - ignore at your own perile - regularly createing fresh content on the website DOES drive trafic.
  • RealoneRealone Posts: 17,511 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Maybe I can answer some of her questions. Differences are these - Paintings and Statues are *BIG*...rich people put them in their GIGANTIC HOMES as trophies...have lavish parties and show these things off...similar are the watches and jewels...rich people get to wear their trophies and show them off at the lavish events and parties.

    Coins on the other hand are small, in a small holder and sit in a SDB. They are only "shown off" at great expense to the owner through the rare coin show display.

    This is WHY! Here are the answers. Glad I could help. image >>








    I could not agree more with your statement!


    I design/build homes for many wealthy people in the Los Angelus area
    and it is very true, they show off the art, cars and jewels. One customer had a specially
    made couch from Ralph Lauren(himself) and named it "Ralph" ......... Took me a few minutes
    to figure that one outimage

    And have even done a few coin dealers homes.......none showed me there " private collections"

    This is my own experiences.......others may varyimageimage >>




    and I totally image
    I typically agree with Ms Sperber but not this time, this time she is trying to make a parallel argument but fails, you cannot relate apples with oranges as she is apparently trying to do here. In my mind with the prices of rarities that she has listed she has proven the in fact opposite, she has proved why they are worth so many times more than coins, because those listed are bigger and rarer and prettier and can be presented to the public in a grandeous manner ie by buidling a monument or eddifice around the object of art inorder to show it off in its best light. Where coins are either in a display case or vault at the Smithsonian/ANA or someone's sdb for private viewing or coin shows a couple times a year. Apples and oranges is what I say.
    'Never give in, never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy'.
    FYI: I only collect naturally toned coins with original surfaces and nothing else, trust me nothing else!
    OK with one exception!
  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 12,795 ✭✭✭✭
    She may have missed the mark somewhat on the premise. However, her conclusion could still come up smelling like a rose......The conclusion is what one will be judged on. MJ
    Walker Proof Digital Album





    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • You all fail to see Miz Legend was thinking outside the box. obviously she was comparing how small the rare coin market is to how much money she saw thrown around in just one magazine.

    coinsarefun, do rich people really show off jewels in their homes? how do they do that? sure they can wear them to events. that entails security. coins can be shown off the same way. Rare coins do have a new way of being shown off-via registries. little difference on that one. who the heck shows off a $6 million dollar watch? don't say at an event. Coins do get displayed at coin shows-those are big events. To me that argument is moot.

    I think what she was trying to convey was the rarity and histories are so rich that the coins should be valued more vs the extreme monies being paid for other collectables.
  • RealoneRealone Posts: 17,511 ✭✭
    Look I wish she were correct but this difference in values has always been a huge spread and there is justification for it. Things are not going to change for some reason now, tere wil always unfortunately be this wide gap, it is the nature of what we are comparing. Here is another example, all of my wealthy friends, and I mean all of them, have all the trophies that comes with wealth except for coins, none of then and I mean none of them own a single coin. None collect coins and I can't even get them to think about owning one. Coin collectors are a different bread. None of my friends want to become collectors or experts, they don't have the time or the desire. I cannot talk them into it no matter how much I try. Inorder to invest big time in rare coins one has to become educated and they don't want to do the work. With paintings and other big ticket items it is another thing since they can show it off in their home it becomes more real for them and justified, it will be seen and enjoyed and shown every day and they don't have to become an espert like in coins. Sure they will do some researh, like buying a jag but they won't look at coins the same way.
    'Never give in, never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy'.
    FYI: I only collect naturally toned coins with original surfaces and nothing else, trust me nothing else!
    OK with one exception!
  • coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 16,643 ✭✭✭


    << <i>You all fail to see Miz Legend was thinking outside the box. obviously she was comparing how small the rare coin market is to how much money she saw thrown around in just one magazine.

    coinsarefun, do rich people really show off jewels in their homes? how do they do that? sure they can wear them to events. that entails security. coins can be shown off the same way. Rare coins do have a new way of being shown off-via registries. little difference on that one. who the heck shows off a $6 million dollar watch? don't say at an event. Coins do get displayed at coin shows-those are big events. To me that argument is moot.

    I think what she was trying to convey was the rarity and histories are so rich that the coins should be valued more vs the extreme monies being paid for other collectables. >>





    I am very aware that she was trying to explain how small the coin collector/ investors world is.

    I'm just stating that it wasn't a very good comparison And that is only my opinion and I am able to express
    it as such.this does not mean you or anyone needs to agreeimage

    As far as your question regarding displaying jewels or jewelry.
    I had a custom built glass and granite case for one customer that wanted to display
    all of his different Rolex watches he had, all on watch winders in the front entry.
    On the other side of the entryway was another granite/ glass case displaying his Davidoff cigars
    and lighters.......humidors and all.

    I know I have done other crazy stuff for these people but can't think of them right nowimage
  • I agree with Laura if you pay 20% more than market for a coin you won't have good return unless you hold the coin for 20-30 years. I wonder how much of that 20% over the market price goes to the seller of the coin and how much goes to Legend? My guess would be that Legend pays almost retail for the coin and a little more than 20% goes into Legend's pocket.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 20,065 ✭✭✭
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic……………………...Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

    image
  • I think her post begs an excellent questions. Is a Pittman-like outcome available for coin buyers today?

    Are there coins we see now, that will someday trade for hundreds or thousands of times what they go for now? If so, will they be coins we all know? Or unheard of specimen condition clad pieces who's rarity won't be truly understood for a generation. Will certain low to mid four figure R7 pattern coins explode in 20 years?


  • << <i> >>



    image image
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  • 500Bay500Bay Posts: 1,118 ✭✭
    I just hope I live long enough to make those great returns image
    Finem Respice
  • I usually like Legend's blog, but this one was a lot of marketing hype.

    Her general premise - ever increasing coin prices - seems pretty unlikely. Coin collecting, at least in the U.S., is likely to decline over the next 20-30 years as a lot of older collectors pass away or sell during retirement. Many collectors today are baby boomers who began filling sets out of circulation as kids... do you see a lot of kids collecting coins these days? Where are the masses of younger collectors who will step up and fill the void? Sure, you will always have some new blood, but overall, a decline is likely.

    Comparing U.S. coins to well-established "world" markets for Picasso paintings, Patek Philippe watches, and big diamonds makes no sense. Overwhelmingly the people who collect U.S. coins are Americans. Just like most collectors of Russian coins are Russian (or Russian background). I know the Polish coin market pretty well, and I can tell you at the high end this is exactly how it works.

    People tend to collect coins from their own country. That ensures there will never be a unified world market for one country's coins, where Russian and Saudi billionaires are bidding to buy a 1793 cent like they would bid for a Picasso. The whole premise is nonsensical. Even if a "global" coin market develops, why would U.S. coins be the beneficiary of that trend, rather than Chinese, Indian, Russian, etc. coins?
    "Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
  • bidaskbidask Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I usually like Legend's blog, but this one was a lot of marketing hype.

    Her general premise - ever increasing coin prices - seems pretty unlikely. Coin collecting, at least in the U.S., is likely to decline over the next 20-30 years as a lot of older collectors pass away or sell during retirement. Many collectors today are baby boomers who began filling sets out of circulation as kids... do you see a lot of kids collecting coins these days? Where are the masses of younger collectors who will step up and fill the void? Sure, you will always have some new blood, but overall, a decline is likely.

    Comparing U.S. coins to well-established "world" markets for Picasso paintings, Patek Philippe watches, and big diamonds makes no sense. Overwhelmingly the people who collect U.S. coins are Americans. Just like most collectors of Russian coins are Russian (or Russian background). I know the Polish coin market pretty well, and I can tell you at the high end this is exactly how it works.

    People tend to collect coins from their own country. That ensures there will never be a unified world market for one country's coins, where Russian and Saudi billionaires are bidding to buy a 1793 cent like they would bid for a Picasso. The whole premise is nonsensical. Even if a "global" coin market develops, why would U.S. coins be the beneficiary of that trend, rather than Chinese, Indian, Russian, etc. coins? >>

    I understand the logic of your premise but in regards to future demand of US coins, I wonder if questions like "older collectors passing away and where are the younger collectors today who will step up and fill the void".....has been asked before by collectors from previous generations....? Yet overtime values for most US coins have risen, much less the high end rarer coins.

    I think the internet and demographically, growing middle classes around the world, are huge game changers for the future of coin collecting in general.

    And while there is some truth that collectors ( and dealers) are mostly interested in coins from their own countries, I think the sheer number of new collectors around the world could easily overtime..... replace any shortfall in new collectors from the US especially for the rare high end coins and help global collecting develop.

    Why is NGC and PCGS investing overseas?

    Todd Imhoff will tell you on the growth ( for Heritage) is coming from foreign coins and foreign bidders.

    Even Laura states "We do know the market for US Rare coins is definately world wide and growing (thank you internet)"

    But that trend is not just the US........had dealers or shrewd collectors bought great russian and/or chinese coins for example, in just the last decade they would have made gigantic multiple returns on a BROAD range of series of coinage from those countries.

    Through the MyCollection feature at Heritage, I recently received 2 unsolicited offers for coins I bought within the last 4 years that would have made 50% gains on both offers.....I passed.

    One was a 5 figure coin and the other a high 4 figure coin.....both foreign coins and not russian or chinese.

    But I have to wonder where did those offers come from ?

    Collector interest is growing from many countries because wealth is growing globally....and yet its all relative.

    You can still buy great coins on a relative basis for stupid cheap money and wait for the collectors to come to you.

    I am a collector of foreign and US coins. I am interested in rare coins and I do not feel limited to coins from the US only. I think there are a growing number of collectors like myself who are interested in coins globally...for all the same reasons, ......history, beauty, silver/gold copper coins from various historical mints used for commerce.

    Sure there is a learning curve but how much time and money and mistakes are you willing to make to be a part of global collecting boom?......Why I still make mistakes in US coins but at least my mistakes in the foreign coin market are alot cheaper and I am learning and scoring wins in my coin collection.

    It does seem like on an absolute basis coins are pretty cheap overall compared to other collectibles.

    And even more stupid cheap for rare foreign coins......what a future they have.



    Share the joy and its multiplied by two.
    Share the grief and its halved by two.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 20,065 ✭✭✭
    An observation regarding the market for ultra-coins vs ultra-art. My best guess is that there are 100 coin collectors on the planet that have a steady interest in buying seven figure coins. My best wild guess is that the number of regular players for seven figure art is at least 8,000.

    Also, it seems to me that one of the keys to a market's strength is for collectors to be able to participate in a community of peers. In the art market, there are highly exclusive events hosted by dealers, auction houses and museums. In the coin market? Nothing's high end and nothing's exclusive. (Get in line for the free tacos at the next Heritage auction!)

    I guess the bottom line is that with only 100 coin collectors in the big leagues, the coin market (at the highest level) simply lacks critical mass. But it is building, and not that slowly.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic……………………...Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

    image
  • saintgurusaintguru Posts: 10,589
    Hey Bruce....have you listed the 1793 1c. for $15,000,000 anywhere yet?

    Is there any wiggle room at all. image
    image
  • TahoeDaleTahoeDale Posts: 1,806 ✭✭
    As usual, Laura is seeing, and has seen over the years, the immense demand that whales have for big ticket items. The biggest problem is lack of supply. In almost every series, there are only a few truly unique or monster coins to fill their needs.

    We don't see what she sees. As a low to middle of the market collector, most of us cannot fathom the amount of their wealth-- many millions to invest or place somewhere. And if there were 3 to 4 times the number of fab coins available, she could easily place them in a day.

    So, if a once in a lifetime( or decade) coin comes along, it is no problem to pay up--more than 20% over a reasonable cost is easy for her and the client. This is not to say that you or anyone else should overpay for coins that are readily available.

    Dropping down a bit, perhaps to the 25k to 50k arena, a 10 to 20% premium is still okay, for a coin you have been waiting for. Don't pass it up, as it also will not come around again for some time.

    edit: and only 1 came out of an auction.

    I have been waiting for MS 66 CBH's to appear on the market for 11 years. I have found 5 in that period of time.
    TahoeDale
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 34,276 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Hey Bruce....have you listed the 1973 1c. for $15,000,000 anywhere yet?

    Is there any wiggle room at all. image >>



    Did you mean 1793 or am I missing something here?


  • << <i>Sure there is a learning curve but how much time and money and mistakes are you willing to make to be a part of global collecting boom?......Why I still make mistakes in US coins but at least my mistakes in the foreign coin market are alot cheaper and I am learning and scoring wins in my coin collection.

    It does seem like on an absolute basis coins are pretty cheap overall compared to other collectibles.

    And even more stupid cheap for rare foreign coins......what a future they have. >>



    Agreed about certain foreign coins. I think that's where there's the biggest potential for growth. Not all countries, obviously. For Russian coins, that ship has already left.
    "Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 26,452 ✭✭✭✭
    That article reads just like many did during the 1986-1989 era when all it would take was a little big time Wall Street money to turn things totally upside down. For a year or two
    it almost did. But, it only took a recessionary market turn and the idea that the grading problem might not be 100% solved to cause WS to retreat. The crackout artists of that
    time were doing quite well upgrading the PQ coins of that period, especially using NGC and PCGS against each other.

    If rare coins are underpriced then so are thousands of other collectible market areas in every country of the world. There just isn't enough money, interest or demand to
    promote each and every underpriced collectible market. You name the item and it's probably collected with numerous rare types and varieties along the way. How about
    dolls, teddy bears, antique weapons, games and toys, duck decoys, fishing lures, comics, classic movie art, professional sports memorabilia, famous letters and signatures,
    Pez dispensers, military uniforms and medals, fossils, meteorites, books, etc. The list is potentially endless, but the dollars to buy it all are not. I'm sure if we valued the entire
    collectible's field similar to the major art markets it might exceed all the wealth in the world. In essence, our entire pasts are now collectible, everything from the 1980's and
    back. That's thousands of years of art, antiques, and collectibles to pour over. In short, the world is a giant collectible, but we still have to eat and beathe first. The US, having
    the world's reserve currency and then becoming fully fiat in 1971 caused this entire collectible effect to bloom right here. Another reason why our coin market saw the effects of
    inflation first hand while much of the dark side coinage is still a long ways back. I think there's a far better chance of a BRIC nation duplicating our 1950-2000 growth period
    for Pittmanesque returns, than the chances of the US doing it all over again. Having the world's reserve currency helps.

    As others have mentioned it's rare art and antiques, paintings, statues, etc. that can be on prominent display and discussed that really catch the eye of the world's wealthy.
    Each of these is potentially unique, not usually so for a coin, even if it is the finest known specimen. There's only one "Guitarist" by Picasso and a lone Mona Lisa. But I will give
    a pass to J-1776 as it's unique as well. The Child's 1804 Dollar and TDN's 1793 cent ain't so bad either. I think to assume that what was done to our currency from 1971-2011
    will continue on for another 30-40 years just like before might be a stretch. The setup that Pittman, Bareford, and others got probably will not be repeated for decades. They
    just happened to hit the long term economic cycle perfectly. The same conditions that Pittman experienced probably won't be duplicated again until 2070 when the next major
    long term economic cycle is about half way complete. The time to cash out at a peak similar to 1996-2007 will be around 2116-2126. See you then!

    roadrunner

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold


  • << <i>That's thousands of years of art, antiques, and collectibles to pour over. >>


    pore

    (Somehow the thread seemed odd without some mention of spelling errors... image)
    "I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception." -Groucho Marx
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 26,452 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>That's thousands of years of art, antiques, and collectibles to pour over. >>


    pore (Somehow the thread seemed odd without some mention of spelling errors... >>



    Somehow I doubt I have the only one. image

    I'm sure I'd grade no higher than 0 on the "grammarly" scale. Do they give out negative or imaginery numbers? image

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • I like to collect. I'm probably not what some may consider passionate.

    I also don't mind making a buck.

    Coins have two IMPORTANT qualities that will almost guarantee their increased value. 1) liquidity 2) entry level to increase the collector base at the lower level.---people generally like to trade up for condition and rarity and eye appeal.

    When you think of assets....think entry level and trade up. Whatever the asset...whether it be a 50 unit apartment, a chippendale desk, or a tiffany broach----if people can't trade up to purchase it then the only way it sells is if new money enters the arena.

    At whatever level of coins...there is trade up demand AND new money demand. And basically a finite supply of certain coins.

    Have a nice day


  • << <i>Also, it seems to me that one of the keys to a market's strength is for collectors to be able to participate in a community of peers. In the art market, there are highly exclusive events hosted by dealers, auction houses and museums. In the coin market? Nothing's high end and nothing's exclusive. (Get in line for the free tacos at the next Heritage auction!) >>



    You are right!

    In addition to a community of peers, high end collectors expect a level of professionalism. In my opinion, Legend would do much better if their market reports hyped the market less.
  • DRUNNERDRUNNER Posts: 2,865 ✭✭✭
    Ultimately, after all the analysis, spin, and market-PC posts . . . . . . . it all comes down to only one thing . .

    Supply v. Demand

    Drunner
  • Amazing how people here love to make noise. The comments here are funny. How can you throw away comments made by someone who has handled over 1 billion dollars worth of coins, built many of the current finest ever (not just #1) collections, and participated in 3 major market cycles (since 1977)? Do you really believe Legends Market Report was written for people here? NOT!

    I do not think the report was written to get more business, Legend apparently has enough. Laura has been warning anyone who would listen about the supply side for the past few years. She is right-the supply side is running on fumes. Look at tahoedales bottom comments, 5 MS66 CBH in 11 years???? OUCH!
  • goose3goose3 Posts: 13,559 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Amazing how people here love to make noise. The comments here are funny. How can you throw away comments made by someone who has handled over 1 billion dollars worth of coins, built many of the current finest ever (not just #1) collections, and participated in 3 major market cycles (since 1977)? Do you really believe Legends Market Report was written for people here? NOT!

    >>




    So elaborate on why you lower yourself to come and post here.......

    Amazing.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 26,452 ✭✭✭✭
    I do not think the report was written to get more business, Legend apparently has enough. Laura has been warning anyone who would listen about the supply side for the past few years. She is right-the supply side is running on fumes. Look at tahoedales bottom comments, 5 MS66 CBH in 11 years???? OUCH!

    I don't know how Dale was counting those 66's. Was it different coins, or just the ones that were solid for the grade? With 75-100 pcs graded by PCGS alone one would have
    expected a lot more than just 1 appearance every 2 yrs. I recall an 1831 PCGS MS66 that was an ok coin (had a black mark on Lib's chin) that was making the rounds of the auctions for the past few years. Between auctions and dealer inventory it probably appeared 6X by itself in the past 4 yrs. NGC has graded over 2X as many 66's as PCGS and not all those coins are 65's, but they are essentially treated as such. With a couple of hundred 66's in holders there ought to have been a lot more than 6 worthy coins in 11 yrs. I recall a very nice NGC 66 1811 that both myself and Joe O'Connor felt was a legit 66. Coin was well struck, had no rub and minimal marks, but not the blasty mint luster usually required of PCGS. Just for the heck of it I checked out CAC and they have stickered 22 CBH's as MS66 since opening their doors about 4 yrs ago. A lot more than I expected to be honest.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • With all the inacurate comparisons of the coin market to art. Why would you let something as silly as the facts get in the way of a good of fashion dose of propaganda.

    Its kind of like when HSN says "If this $200 1880 Morgan in MS64 was a proof it would be worth over 20 times as much you better order two now..."
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 18,127 ✭✭✭
    Huge difference between art and numismatics- but as funny as this may sound, they have afew things in common

    Artists are often are promoted- so are coins

    There are fads in collecting Art- and also with coins

    Did anyone see a documentary film done afew years back about the woman truck driver that found a painting in a San Bernadino Thrift Shop that could have been painted by Jackson Pollack?

    It was interesting...
  • bidaskbidask Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭
    I thought the below was important in her message.

    Holding your coins for 5 years just does not bring you hyper returns. Look at the greatest collections with the greatest returns. Especially Pittman. He was not a millionare and struggled with every purchase. He had bought the BEST QUALITY and greatest RARITES he could and held his coins 20-35 years. His % return was not nominal-it was staggering, averaging in some cases 500-1000%! The rare coin market is definately poised for this type of return. You will be able to take advantage of the ride assuming you buy the right coins.
    Share the joy and its multiplied by two.
    Share the grief and its halved by two.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 20,065 ✭✭✭
    He had bought the BEST QUALITY and greatest RARITES he could and held his coins 20-35 years. His % return was not nominal-it was staggering, averaging in some cases 500-1000%!

    Pittman bought extremely well, held much of the material for more like 40-50 years, and got returns far, far greater than 1000%. Today's collectors may do the same, but few of us will have the skills, the connections and the longevity to make it happen.

    That said, I can easily see profits of 500-1000% in 20-35 years. After all, you only need an annual gain of 8% to yield a 700% profit in 27 years.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic……………………...Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

    image


  • << <i>I thought the below was important in her message.

    Holding your coins for 5 years just does not bring you hyper returns. Look at the greatest collections with the greatest returns. Especially Pittman. He was not a millionare and struggled with every purchase. He had bought the BEST QUALITY and greatest RARITES he could and held his coins 20-35 years. His % return was not nominal-it was staggering, averaging in some cases 500-1000%! The rare coin market is definately poised for this type of return. You will be able to take advantage of the ride assuming you buy the right coins. >>



    Pittman had a great eye, a consuming passion for the hobby, and developed an extensive network of contacts. A person that can match Pittman in terms of grading skill, contacts, and market knowledge, might have a shot at being like Pittman. I'd guess maybe 0.01% of coin collectors have the chops to realistically ante up for that game. Those that typically pay full retail buying from dealers have less odds than that. Those paying full retail and selling at wholesale are doing well at break even after five years (as always excluding bullion plays). The average collector would do well to forget the possibility for "hyper-returns" and just enjoy the hobby, because it isn't going to happen for them. A very few collectors with great skill, and some luck may achieve hyper returns, but they tend not to pay full retail, and they tend to have a skill set well beyond what average collectors might possess.





  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 13,045 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Holding your coins for 5 years just does not bring you hyper returns. Look at the greatest collections with the greatest returns. Especially Pittman. He was not a millionare and struggled with every purchase. He had bought the BEST QUALITY and greatest RARITES he could and held his coins 20-35 years. His % return was not nominal-it was staggering, averaging in some cases 500-1000%! The rare coin market is definately poised for this type of return. You will be able to take advantage of the ride assuming you buy the right coins. >>

    I've seen and achieved 1000% to 1500% returns over the past 5 years in coins, but not in US coins.

    I like Laura; however, this, combined with not understanding why collectibles with a higher WAF, and that can be shared easier, go for higher values leads me to believe her expertise is somewhat specialized. Perhaps getting more of a feel for things outside of US coins could add good perspective.
  • AuroraBorealisAuroraBorealis Posts: 3,143 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Holding your coins for 5 years just does not bring you hyper returns. Look at the greatest collections with the greatest returns. Especially Pittman. He was not a millionare and struggled with every purchase. He had bought the BEST QUALITY and greatest RARITES he could and held his coins 20-35 years. His % return was not nominal-it was staggering, averaging in some cases 500-1000%! The rare coin market is definately poised for this type of return. You will be able to take advantage of the ride assuming you buy the right coins. >>

    I've seen and achieved 1000% to 1500% returns over the past 5 years in coins, but not in US coins.

    I like Laura; however, this, combined with not understanding why collectibles with a higher WAF, and that can be shared easier, go for higher values leads me to believe her expertise is somewhat specialized. Perhaps getting more of a feel for things outside of US coins could add good perspective. >>



    When i read her paragraph of Pittman struggling with every purchase and sticking with quality and rarity and holding for 20-35 years i immediately relate to myself...I had started collecting coins when me and my wife were first married 35 years ago but it was a struggle buying them...Then with kids and life in general i stopped collecting for many years...Oh how i wish i had stuck with it...Even being a struggle...The opportunities were amazing back then(70`s 80`s)... Anyhoo i still am struggling buying coins now a days...lol

    AB image
  • saintgurusaintguru Posts: 10,589
    There's another collector we know, Dr. Steve Duckor, who has Saints that range from 500-2000% appreciation which he's held for 40 years.

    And then there was the $10 Indian 1920-S MS67.....+2000%! ($80K-$1.725MM) Only 40 years. image
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  • BearBear Posts: 22,099
    I believe that Laura is correct, when she states that the great collections, many collected

    by folks of modest means, became great collections over decades. I suppose that one can

    make good profit in 5-10 years, but just think what could happen to nice, well selected coins,

    over 20 years or more. It is just staggering in its implication.
    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage
  • saintgurusaintguru Posts: 10,589
    Anyone want to guess what a $10,000 investment in Berkshire Hathaway in 1964 would be worth today?

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  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 13,045 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Anyone want to guess what a $10,000 investment in Berkshire Hathaway in 1964 would be worth today? >>

    Annualized, probably quite a bit better than over the past 5 years. image
  • saintgurusaintguru Posts: 10,589
    You see, you're taking the short term view. This is exactly the point that's being made, that over the LONG term investments work differently.

    How has MSFT done in 5 years? NADO, ZERO, Goose Egg!

    How has MSFT done since it went public? My chart doesn't go back that far but I'm sure it's worth at least 1000 times more.
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  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 13,045 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>You see, you're taking the short term view. This is exactly the point that's being made, that over the LONG term investments work differently.

    How has MSFT done in 5 years? NADO, ZERO, Goose Egg!

    How has MSFT done since it went public? My chart doesn't go back that far but I'm sure it's worth at least 1000 times more. >>

    Steve Ballmer is no Bill Gates. Check out the time when the stock started to stagnate and the time when Ballmer took over.

    Imagine if you moved your money from MSFT to AAPL.
  • saintgurusaintguru Posts: 10,589
    You're completely missing the point. I said it's done nothing in five years...and actually longer. And I'm not taking any position on where it will go from here. And do you remember when AAPL was almost busted out in the '90's? Is that part of your equation too? Again, I am not making predictions on either, simly citing the theory....

    Take off your reading glasses and use binoculars. LONG TERM IS THE WAY TO MAKE THE BIGGEST PROFITS.
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  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 13,045 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>You're completely missing the point. I said it's done nothing in five years...and actually longer. And I'm not taking any position on where it will go from here. And do you remember when AAPL was almost busted out in the '90's? Is that part of your equation too? Again, I am not making predictions on either, simly citing the theory....

    Take off your reading glasses and use binoculars. LONG TERM IS THE WAY TO MAKE THE BIGGEST PROFITS. >>

    I think we have similar but differing theories. I believe in long term investment, but not blind long term investment. There are structural reasons why certain stocks and markets do well. For example, the baby boomers impact many markets in a positive way, CEOs have a big impact on their company, the shift in world GDP is having a major impact in many markets and large assets to invest may limit your opportunities. When the structural reasons for why a company or market has been successful changes, it's good to remember the axiom:

    Past Performance is No Guarantee of Future Results
  • saintgurusaintguru Posts: 10,589
    Don't be so damn contrary.

    I'm making a point that doesn't warrant scrutiny and dissection, Champ.

    You win. image
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