Anyone can 'play' all five positions...doesn't mean they are worthy of doing so. Magic was routinely lit up by the guy he was guarding, regardless of his position.
Magic also never won a title without Kareem
Kareem has one without Magic.
Yeah, if I were to be able to start a team with Magic Johnson, and get to add him to Jabbar, I would take Magic to start a franchise too over Jordan and Dave Corzine, LOL!
Bird never won one without Parrish or McHale
There are too many variables in your assumptions with what their records were when they came or left.
FYI the Bull's roster was awful for Jordan's first few seasons, just awful. Pippen's rookie year he was a part time player and did little to contribute, and the Bulls won 50 games that year. The next year Pippen was a full time player and they only won 47. So was it really attributed to Pippen?? No teams win without a great complement of players.
I can play that game too and ignore the variables and say that Jordan's team with the Bulls won 62 games in 1998, he retired, and they won only 13 the next year. So if you ignore the other teammates in examples with Magic, then you have to do the same with Jordan and that incredible 49 game swing in his absence.
OR a more telling example in the midst of Jordan's presence when the roster stayed similar throughout, except for Jordan's noticeable absence:
'91-'92: 67-15 with Jordan and win a Title '92-'93: 57-25 with Jordan and win a Title
'93-'94 55-27 and NO Jordan. 2nd round elimination '94-'95 33-32 and NO Jordan.
'94-'95 14-3 with Jordan. '95-'96 72-10 with Jordan.
The Bulls simply played above their head in '93-'94 when Jordan retired. People always point to that fact that they only won two less game when Jordan was gone...but they forget that they won 67 the previous season to that, and how they were only .500 the next year without him, he came back and they went 14-3, and the next full year they won 72 games with him.
Jordan missed nearly TWO full seasons in the middle of the title runs, and the Bulls went 88-59 for a .598 winning percentage during his absence. In the 3+ 'sandwich' years surrounding that absence the Bulls went 210-53 for a .798 winning percentage with him.
THat is a VAST difference.
Also!
Look at the dynamics before Jordan came, and during his early years(pre Pippen)....
'82-'83: 28-54...no Jordan '83-'84: 27-55...no Jordan '85-'86 when Jordan was hurt for most of the year, 21-43 in his absence. Yeah, that did get THAT MUCH worse without him. Your assertion is wrong above. TOTAL: 76-152 for a .333 WP% w/no Jordan
'84'-'85: 38-44 during jordan rookie year. '85'-'86 when he was starting again 9-9 '86'-87 40-42 TOTAL: 87-95 for a .478 WP% w/ Jordan
Were the Bulls contenders with him in his early years? No. The roster was bad, but they were much better with him, than without. Don't forget that Jordan's second year he missed most of it. But he single handidly kept them in the games against the Celtics in the playoffs that year, when they were at their peak!!
When he retired the second time, the BUlls went from 62 wins to 13 without him.
With Washington:
Year before Jordan 19-63 1st year w/ Jordan 30-30 as starter, 7-15 not. 2nd year w/ Jordan 37-45 Right after Jordan retired 25-57 TOtal with Jordan 67-75 .478 TOtal NO Jordan 51-135 .274
So when you look at ALL that in total, instead of just the one year in his absence like most tend to do, you get a much more clear picture of their wins/losses with or without him.
Jordan provided a LOT of instances of before/after during his career, and in every one of them his team's were CLEARLY MUCH better with him, than without...and in some cases the differences were of mythical proportions!
You have to look at what THEY can do on the court.
Bird, Magic, and Jordan can almost be thrown into a hat offensively. They reach that level via different ways,whether it was penetrating, outside shooting, ability to create a shot, post play, passing, or running... but they are all pretty close offensively. But if you were to press which of the three were better offensive players, it would be an endless debate between Bird and Jordan. Magic would be behind them. Bird's ability to shoot from the outside is what keeps him at the Jordan level. Magic played a long time before he became a good enough outside shooter to be even comparable to them two.
Defesnively, it isn't even close between the three. Jordan is so far above them it isn't even close. THAT is what puts Jordan a head above the other two! You mentioned something about Magic being able to guard five spots...yeah, but poorly. He didn't guard the top offensive guys on the other teams. He guarded the weaker scorer so he could be out on the break, and not have to work as hard defensively.
In the finals against the Bulls, he guarded John Paxson....and actually got lit up a little by him too, LOL.
They all were all pretty much equal in the 'intangibles' in terms of clutch, post seasn performance(compared to regulr season), etc...
You mentioned a tougher era? I don't know about that. Jordan played Magic in the finals head on, so that helps answer a part of that question.
It just so happened the the top teams in the NBA were all in the Bull's conference, so yeah, the fianls opponents may not have been as strong...but the conference road was MUCH tougher.
Also, Jordan's team's played teams like the Pistons and Knicks, where no other superstar in the history of the NBA, had to work as hard against defenses designed specifically to stop and mame HIM! It was downright ugly.
Jordan didn't have the luxury of another go to guy on his team to make those teams respect that and lay off of him more. Pippen was not that kind of player. Bird had an offensive go to guy in Mchale. Plus Parrish. And Magic wasn't even his team's go to guy for most of his time....it was Jabbar!!! James Worthy was more of that type a player than Pippen too!
Maybe I should simplify it for you, as you are having a hard time grasping the point, and just give you what you want.
All of Jordan's team's in the immediate year previous to his arrival, the immediate year after his departure, and the year in which he missed significant time during that season had(and played without Jordan):
187 wins and 292 losses for a .390 WP%
Those same teams, compared to Jordan's FIRST year with those teams, his last year with those teams, and the years in which he missed significant time during the season(where he played), those teams had:
260 wins, and 166 losses for a .610 WP%
THe above translated to an NBA regular season equate to the following:
Without Jordan 32-50 With Jordan 50-32
The above figures DO NOT count the year where Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman all left!!!
There are reasons for using more than just the one season before and after, obvioiusly it is over your head, so just focus on the above...also rather than just using your ONE example of the season where they only won two less games when he first retired, and just the 11 game increase in his rookie year, and then ignore all the other before/after instances he provided.
The other stuff went over your head in regard to how Jordan had to go through those defensive teams, and him having to carry that load, without nearly the help Magic had. If you don't realize that Jabbar was the man the Lakers went to in crunch time, then you didn't watch enough of those games. It wasn't until Jabbar was an old man that it started to change.
You are also completely glossing over the defensive end of the spectrum...but I guess basketball dummies would do something like that. Magic getting lit up by John Paxson really was a sight to behold, LOL.
During the 80's, the western conference was weak. The Lakers were the only dominant team in there. The east had the top teams, usually three teams better than any of the Laker's competition in the west. Not just one year wonder teams, but consistently excellent.
The reason the bulls vs the lakers were brought up is because it was Jordan directly vs. Magic. Magic had plenty of weapons...of course he did not have Jabbar, cause he could never win one without him.
Of course Jordan wasn't going to win a title as early as Magic did...the Bulls roster was awful. Just like Jeter never would have won a title with the roster of the kanas city royals...yet an astute observer would rate him as good, and NOT hold the roster against him. Magic simply added the other super star they needed to win a championship.
But looking above, Jordan's team's improved as good or better as Magic's....not even counting the year Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman all left.
<< <i>Of course there are reasons for using more than just the one year, but it was YOU who wanted to blather about too many “variables” and what not. And there’s something to be said for that as well. I was responding to what you wanted by trying to eliminate many of Lastly, I’ve never knocked Jordan for not winning right away. The point is that Magic made a HUGE impact and made it right away and it was obvious to anyone who knows anything about basketball. It was a point of a huge positive for him. The point still stands that Jordan only elevated them 11 games in his first season. Unlike a Magic who did a +13 even with a team that was good to begin with and lost key pieces in the transition. Not to mention Bird and LeBron who were also very impressive in completely turning around their franchises. With Jordan, if he is THAT good in a bubble, and with his team only having won 27 games, you’d think the room for improvement was there for him to win 45-50 games. My point still stands that if I’m starting a franchise from scratch, without knowing who else is going to be on that team, my first pick is Magic. >>
All the rest you said is just poohuckey, so lets focus on this.
You keep harping on the fact that Jordan only elevated his rookie year team to 11 more wins, and ignore all the years where Jordan's addition/subraction meant an average of 18 wins(not even counting the year where they all left).
Then you go on and on about praising Magic's addition of 13 wins to his rookie year team. Also, do not forget that this was Michael Cooper's coming out party too, and how good a defensive shut down player he was. He filled a role that Dantley did not fit. It was better for the TEAM. SO it wasn't just Magic fella. Cooper was HUGE. You seem to not understand the importance of defense. U haven't mentioned it once! Probably because you are a jeter fan.
If you get THAT excited over Magic's addition of 13 wins, then you MUST get excited over the 18 wins that Jordan's teams averaged in his addition/subtraction years.
Also, is 13 wins that much greater than 11 where you get soo excited?
When Magic retired, the Lakers went down 15 games, and made it to the first round of the playoffs...after coming off a finals appearance.
So in totality....
Magic's team's averaged a difference of 14 wins in his addition/subtraction years. They gained one title in there, and they made it to the second round of the playoffs and first round of the playoffs in the years without him.
Jordan's team's averged a difference of 18 wins in his addition subtractin years. They had two instances going from non title, to a title with addition/subtraction of Jordan.
All that is Not even counting the final time Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman retired where they went down 49 games. You saying that Jordan wasn't at least as responsible for a third of those 49 game difference??
But lets look at that last year and compare that to Magic's FIRST year! It is basically the same, but in reverse.
Look what Jordan meant to a franchise when he left...yeah he had elite help...just like Magic did when he CAME to his franchise!
You say you recognize how bad Jordan's rookie year roster was, but then you hold that against him anyway by stating how impressive it was for Magic to lead 'his' team to a title in his rookie year, despite Jabbar being the MVP for that season. Again, Jordan's final year showed what he meant to a franchise, and they both had elite help!
You keep bringing up how Pippen(and the addition of Kukoc and other smaller key pieces) led the BUlls to the playoffs the year Jordan left. You conveniently forget to mention their second round elimination, and the the fact how much better the Bulls were in the sandwich years with Jordan(I added the hard numbers above that you ignored again)...and the fact that the Bulls won titles in the sandwich years.
Hmmm, before Magic got to the Lakers, they made it to the second round of the playoffs as well.
Sorry I had to wreck your misinformed and INCOMPLETE notion about what Jordan's presence meant to teams.
Your point doesn't stand on any merit about starting a franchise with Magic. Unless that team has Jabbar and Cooper Yes, Jabbar WAS the guy they went to when they needed a big bucket. He was money with the .570 FG%! It also says a lot when at age 37 he is a FINALS MVP winner!
It is only opinion about you saying the competition was better. Not giving up on it, just pointing out your incomplete games difference notions first, LOL. Jordan was plus 18, Magic 14.
'83-'84, 27-55....'84-'85, 38-44 '85-'86, 21-43....'85-'86, 9-9 wth him playing '93-'94, 55-27.....'92-'93, 57-25 '94-'95, 33-32.....'95-'96 72-10, plus 14-3 the end of the previous year when he came back '00-'01, 19-63.....'01-'02, 33-30 '01-'02 7-15 when he was hurt '03-'04, 25-57.....'02-'03 37-45
187-292 without 260-166 with.
I don't even put a lot of stock of doing something such as that, because the variables are too high. However, when guys like you attempt to do it, and then do it incompletely like you did, then I put it up there to give a more accurate reading. THat is also why I was using a two year block earlier for those Bulls teams right in the middle of the double three peate.
Since you ignore the importance of temmates in regard to Magic Johnson, and think Jabbar is some fool, and then don't even know who Michael Cooper is(and say something stupid like how do you know he was a good defender), then it should be just as reasonable to include Jordan's last retirement witht the Bulls, where they went down 49 games.
You must not have watched those early 80's Laker games. Jabbar was the guy they went to in crunch time.
Just saying a guy can shoot more to get more points doesn't equate. Then the shooting percentages goes down, because he has to force and take take bad shots, and his teams would lose all the time. Jordan was able to get to the basket supremely, among also posting, and shooting, and running. Jordan kept his shooting percentage high for a two guard. Jordan rebounded, and had assists as well. He also stole the ball, blocked shots, and clamped down on defense.
One can manufacture a triple double. 16pts,10boards, 10assists is a triple double...but is not better than 40 pts 6 assist, 6 boards(which is not a triple double) Add that one guy played defense supremely better, and you hav an easy winner.
Jordan left after a first threepete title, and they didn't win without him. THat is ONE right there. He came back and they won. That is TWO right there.
Even though I wasn't counting it, Jordan's last retirement from the BUlls they won a title, then did not when he retired. That would be THREE to Magic's ONE, LOL!
If you don't understand the importance of defense, and a guy like Michael Cooper that you totally discounted in your Adrian Dantley rant, then it shows your ignorance...however, we already know that in your defense of Jeter over the years.
League Talk:
FYI, the entire league was not weak during Jordan's title era, it shifted to more defensive minded teams, AND physical strategies...which made it even harder for Jordan to do his thing...and probably shifted because of Jordan. Also, Jordan squared off with Magic, and beat him.
From '84-'86 the league averaged 110 points a game at the height of Magic's run For Jordan's last two title years the league averaged 96 points a game.
From an individual standpoint, it was easier to rack up rebounds, assists, and points for Magic...because there were more shots being taken in the league during those years.
However, I am not arguing the Lakers vs the BUlls. Those 80's Laker's teams WERE better than those Bulls teams. They had a top three center of all-time in Jabbar, and probably the fifth best guard of all time on their team, in Magic. Plus more.
I would say to you, "stick to baseball," however, that is lacking as well.
<<<and probably the fifth best guard of all time on their team, in Magic.>>>
Saberman - I have thoroughly enjoyed this discourse you have had with baseball on this subject (and am on your side in the argument), but I'm curious who else you have in front of Magic? I assume Jordan and Oscar Robertson....who are the other two?
Magic is probably really third or fourth. Jordan and Kobe. Magic and Oscar. Though my opinion on Kobe isn't first hand, as I haven't been involved in NBA following the last several years(hence no Lebron assessments by me).
Fair enough. For me, Magic is ahead of Kobe (too many playoff deciding game blowouts for my liking, and they won despite him in 2010), and probably slightly ahead of Oscar. The NBA during Oscar's peak years were played at a pace that put the mid-80s to shame, so his numbers, while no doubt great, are probably slightly inflated.
Bird is a tough one to slot because injuries really took a toll on him during the last 4-5 years of his career (when he still put up all-star numbers despite barely being able to walk to the plane after games). I will say at his peak from 84-86, Bird was better than Magic was at any point in his career. He was probably as good, if not a better passer than Magic (certainly the best passing forward of all-time), was an infinitely better shooter, and played much better team defense than Magic. For me, it's not close.
I put Jordan and Russell ahead of him, probably Jabbar, too.
<< <i>Bird is a tough one to slot because injuries really took a toll on him during the last 4-5 years of his career (when he still put up all-star numbers despite barely being able to walk to the plane after games). I will say at his peak from 84-86, Bird was better than Magic was at any point in his career. He was probably as good, if not a better passer than Magic (certainly the best passing forward of all-time), was an infinitely better shooter, and played much better team defense than Magic. For me, it's not close.
>>
I agree with that assessmet. At his peak, Bird may have been as good as anyone.
You weren't expressing opinions, you were passing along incomplete information.
I posted all the before/after comparisons for Jordan's team's for the accurate picture, as opposed to the one time where his team only went down two games, and you only look at that, and ignore everything else. SO it isn't my opinion, or yours...it is the whole before/after/without facts I posted for you, as opposed to your selective sampling.
Yes, they did have three title differences in the immediate years, compared ot Magic's one. Regardless if he played just the end of that one season and they lost those playoffs with him, it is still the year after results that truly matter. That team played most of the year without him, and played .500 ball in his absence, is still mostly a different team compared to the following title year. Even though he came at the end, the damage was already done, as they were like the 5th seed or something. It is more difficult to win a title being a 5th seed. Or, do I have to explain why that is to you as well??? So yes, it is a title impact that he made in that case!
I'd say three title impacts is a bigger impact on an organization, as opposed to one.
You didn't get my point about Cooper, and you probably never will.
I edit, because I have to go back and forth through the posts all the time and respond to simple answers that you shouldn't even be posting or asking. It takes too much time to do such things when you don't even understand 'givens', or when you completely ignore important facts. Also, I'm not writing a novel here, so who cares.
You say no young player is going to come in and take the team over an established super star? Then in all your other posts you give magic the lions share of the credit for those first few years with the lakers???? LOL.
You are underestimating Jabbar's ability, and the importance of hitting the go to shot, and overestimating the difficulty in dropping the ball down into him to do that!
Magic was a great complement to Jabbar, neither of which would have won titles on those teams without each other...so stop acting as if Magic is the only reason, and more so than superior players who won less(or in Jordan's case who won MORE, but you try to discount it for other unfounded reasons).
<< <i>Saberman, Jordan had plenty of help. Not as much as Magic, but you didn’t need that much in the 1990s. But you don’t get that, and you probably never will. >>
You are passing that off as if that is law
It comes back to what the player was capable of, and your only rebute to what the player was capable of was how much each impacted a team...and you incompletely painted a picture in regard to that, trying to make it look like Magic's presence/absence to a team was noticeably greater than Jordan's, and you used W/L and championships as your example. But your examples were incomplete. THe many examples actually showed the opposite conclusion to your hypothesis.
By the way, all I really said about Jabbar was that he was the guy they went to in crunch time, and that they never won one wtihout him either.
Jordan was a better offensive player than Magic, and he was a far better defender who guarded the better offensive players more often than Magic.
Plus Magic had the luxury of spending more years in a high scoring NBA environment(a fact which you have still neglected). It is easier to rack up points, rebounds, and assists when there are more shots being taken throughout the league.
You keep harping on the 90's. They were very strong, but it was more of a defensive league, as evidence of the scoring going way down, and watching how they played defense. All this makes it even more amazing to what Jordan did individually against defense like that.
You also made light of the Utah Jazz as opponents, despite them having two long time all time greats on that time, and winning 64 and 62 games both those years, and the following year going 37-13 in the short season. Yes, that team WAS for real, and was NOT some flash in the pan. Even though that really has nothing to do with Jordan's ability as a player, or Magic's.
I would like to discuss the ramifications of the other conference having the top teams in the league as well, but there is a lot here right now already. Though, that really has nothing to do with Magic or Jordan's ability as a player....that would be an effect on the team...and we already know that Jordan's teams were outstanding.
I'll say it again, all I really said about Jabbar was that he was the guy they went to in crunch time, and that they never won one wtihout him either.
You say they would have won three or four without Kareem? How do you know? Magic had his chance for that, and he didn't win any!
Jordan was a better offensive player than Magic, and he was a far better defender who guarded the better offensive players more often than Magic. That is the bottom line between the two.
You are hung up on thinking I said Jabbar was the driving force. Above is all I am saying about him. Magic was a better player at that time. I brought Jabbar into the mix because you gave Magic all this credit for the Lakers winning it his rookie year...and then slighted Jordan on his 'lack' of difference in his rookie year.
You also discredied Jordan by saying the Bulls only won two less games when he retired. They got eliminated in the second round that year...the same round the Lakers got to before Magic. Yet, you gave this wide disparity between each of their impact.
You went on and on about Magic's +13 games difference his rookie year. You neglected all the +/- Jordan meant to his teams...more so than Magic's.
You keep glossing over the difference I pointed out that Jordan meant to his team. His plus/minus was high in terms of wins and losses. His plus/minus was also high in terms of championships. THREE to Magic's ONE.
Again, I only brought that up because you did an incomplete and poor job when you entered that aspect into the conversation.
You are probably diverting the argument from where it was, and that was the plus/minus that you slighted Jordan on....and gave Magic too much credit.
I bring up the 90's for an individual standpoint from Jordan's contribution in an environment where it was harder to get points, as opposed to the early 80's where it was easier. Also, those teams are better than you think.
Here is the +/- for Jordan's teams. It isn't just two games like you think.
'83-'84, 27-55....'84-'85, 38-44 '85-'86, 21-43....'85-'86, 9-9 wth him playing '93-'94, 55-27.....'92-'93, 57-25 '94-'95, 33-32.....'95-'96 72-10, plus 14-3 the end of the previous year when he came back '00-'01, 19-63.....'01-'02, 33-30 '01-'02 7-15 when he was hurt '03-'04, 25-57.....'02-'03 37-45
187-292 without 260-166 with.
You should probably iron our your deficiencies in analyzing baseball, before you enter into another realm. Namely, understand Jeter's defensive problems.
So I guess long story short: Hakeem was the greatest player ever.
In that case, I completely agree.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
All-time NBA career points.
1. 38,387 - Kareem
2. 36,928 - Mailman
3. 36,854 - LeBron
LeBron will likely pass the Mailman this week and then we're looking at another 1459 points to pass Kareem; or approximately 59 games at 25 points per game.
Quite the accomplishment, but I still wouldn't rank him #1 or #2, but maybe #3.
P.S. 10159 career rebounds and 10007 career assists. Not bad.
Lebron at his age I can say with absolute confidence is the best player of all time. At over 37...what he is doing is incredible. Lakers can't blame him. His stats are awesome. Even FT% is up this year. Just awesome.
@Mickey71 said:
Lebron at his age I can say with absolute confidence is the best player of all time. At over 37...what he is doing is incredible. Lakers can't blame him. His stats are awesome. Even FT% is up this year. Just awesome.
Word on the street is that his breath is very bad, hard to defend........
@Mickey71 said:
Lebron at his age I can say with absolute confidence is the best player of all time. At over 37...what he is doing is incredible. Lakers can't blame him. His stats are awesome. Even FT% is up this year. Just awesome.
Nobody - nobody - has had as many seasons as an elite player as LeBron has. He's putting up 30/8/6 at age 37. Kareem did 22/8/3 at that age. Kobe put up 18 a game. Michael was retired before coming back for 2 decent seasons. He's been the best, or arguably the best, player in the NBA for 18 straight seasons. 18. Straight. Seasons.
In terms of peak, I'd probably still take Jordan. Not because of championships because those ares a dumb measurement (Robert Horry says hello). Not because he never lost a Finals because that just rewards him for losing early and most people who mention it ignore that he lost in-between the two threepeats.
No, I'd still take Jordan because he was just better. His game had a slightly higher ceiling.
I have always thought that Wilt never got his due in modern times. To me MJ is the GOAT. Alot of the things that a player does that makes everyone around them better does not necessarily come into the stats. I think that is where MJ has something over LJ. But WC compares favorably to LJ even without the 18 years:
His slightly shorter career compares favorably to LJ, I would at least put them in a tie for 2nd to MJ............. He won seven scoring, eleven rebounding, nine durability, and nine field goal percentage titles, and he led the league in assists once.
@spacehayduke said:
I have always thought that Wilt never got his due in modern times.
I think Wilt is simultaneously overrated and underrated. His numbers are insane but they are obviously a product of an era that inflated individual stats. No chance anybody averages 50 a game or anywhere close now. Realistically, he's a 28/12 guy today. Or similar to Jokic.
On the other hand, he is often ignored in GOAT. It's LeBron or MJ. His level of dominance was unprecedented and not seen since and he should be in that conversation. Thus underrated.
Comments
Magic also never won a title without Kareem
Kareem has one without Magic.
Yeah, if I were to be able to start a team with Magic Johnson, and get to add him to Jabbar, I would take Magic to start a franchise too over Jordan and Dave Corzine, LOL!
Bird never won one without Parrish or McHale
There are too many variables in your assumptions with what their records were when they came or left.
FYI the Bull's roster was awful for Jordan's first few seasons, just awful. Pippen's rookie year he was a part time player and did little to contribute, and the Bulls won 50 games that year. The next year Pippen was a full time player and they only won 47. So was it really attributed to Pippen?? No teams win without a great complement of players.
I can play that game too and ignore the variables and say that Jordan's team with the Bulls won 62 games in 1998, he retired, and they won only 13 the next year. So if you ignore the other teammates in examples with Magic, then you have to do the same with Jordan and that incredible 49 game swing in his absence.
OR a more telling example in the midst of Jordan's presence when the roster stayed similar throughout, except for Jordan's noticeable absence:
'91-'92: 67-15 with Jordan and win a Title
'92-'93: 57-25 with Jordan and win a Title
'93-'94 55-27 and NO Jordan. 2nd round elimination
'94-'95 33-32 and NO Jordan.
'94-'95 14-3 with Jordan.
'95-'96 72-10 with Jordan.
The Bulls simply played above their head in '93-'94 when Jordan retired. People always point to that fact that they only won two less game when Jordan was gone...but they forget that they won 67 the previous season to that, and how they were only .500 the next year without him, he came back and they went 14-3, and the next full year they won 72 games with him.
Jordan missed nearly TWO full seasons in the middle of the title runs, and the Bulls went 88-59 for a .598 winning percentage during his absence.
In the 3+ 'sandwich' years surrounding that absence the Bulls went 210-53 for a .798 winning percentage with him.
THat is a VAST difference.
Also!
Look at the dynamics before Jordan came, and during his early years(pre Pippen)....
'82-'83: 28-54...no Jordan
'83-'84: 27-55...no Jordan
'85-'86 when Jordan was hurt for most of the year, 21-43 in his absence. Yeah, that did get THAT MUCH worse without him. Your assertion is wrong above.
TOTAL: 76-152 for a .333 WP% w/no Jordan
'84'-'85: 38-44 during jordan rookie year.
'85'-'86 when he was starting again 9-9
'86'-87 40-42
TOTAL: 87-95 for a .478 WP% w/ Jordan
Were the Bulls contenders with him in his early years? No. The roster was bad, but they were much better with him, than without. Don't forget that Jordan's second year he missed most of it. But he single handidly kept them in the games against the Celtics in the playoffs that year, when they were at their peak!!
When he retired the second time, the BUlls went from 62 wins to 13 without him.
With Washington:
Year before Jordan 19-63
1st year w/ Jordan 30-30 as starter, 7-15 not.
2nd year w/ Jordan 37-45
Right after Jordan retired 25-57
TOtal with Jordan 67-75 .478
TOtal NO Jordan 51-135 .274
So when you look at ALL that in total, instead of just the one year in his absence like most tend to do, you get a much more clear picture of their wins/losses with or without him.
Jordan provided a LOT of instances of before/after during his career, and in every one of them his team's were CLEARLY MUCH better with him, than without...and in some cases the differences were of mythical proportions!
You have to look at what THEY can do on the court.
Bird, Magic, and Jordan can almost be thrown into a hat offensively. They reach that level via different ways,whether it was penetrating, outside shooting, ability to create a shot, post play, passing, or running... but they are all pretty close offensively. But if you were to press which of the three were better offensive players, it would be an endless debate between Bird and Jordan. Magic would be behind them. Bird's ability to shoot from the outside is what keeps him at the Jordan level. Magic played a long time before he became a good enough outside shooter to be even comparable to them two.
Defesnively, it isn't even close between the three. Jordan is so far above them it isn't even close. THAT is what puts Jordan a head above the other two! You mentioned something about Magic being able to guard five spots...yeah, but poorly. He didn't guard the top offensive guys on the other teams. He guarded the weaker scorer so he could be out on the break, and not have to work as hard defensively.
In the finals against the Bulls, he guarded John Paxson....and actually got lit up a little by him too, LOL.
They all were all pretty much equal in the 'intangibles' in terms of clutch, post seasn performance(compared to regulr season), etc...
You mentioned a tougher era? I don't know about that. Jordan played Magic in the finals head on, so that helps answer a part of that question.
It just so happened the the top teams in the NBA were all in the Bull's conference, so yeah, the fianls opponents may not have been as strong...but the conference road was MUCH tougher.
Also, Jordan's team's played teams like the Pistons and Knicks, where no other superstar in the history of the NBA, had to work as hard against defenses designed specifically to stop and mame HIM! It was downright ugly.
Jordan didn't have the luxury of another go to guy on his team to make those teams respect that and lay off of him more. Pippen was not that kind of player. Bird had an offensive go to guy in Mchale. Plus Parrish. And Magic wasn't even his team's go to guy for most of his time....it was Jabbar!!! James Worthy was more of that type a player than Pippen too!
Maybe I should simplify it for you, as you are having a hard time grasping the point, and just give you what you want.
All of Jordan's team's in the immediate year previous to his arrival, the immediate year after his departure, and the year in which he missed significant time during that season had(and played without Jordan):
187 wins and 292 losses for a .390 WP%
Those same teams, compared to Jordan's FIRST year with those teams, his last year with those teams, and the years in which he missed significant time during the season(where he played), those teams had:
260 wins, and 166 losses for a .610 WP%
THe above translated to an NBA regular season equate to the following:
Without Jordan 32-50
With Jordan 50-32
The above figures DO NOT count the year where Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman all left!!!
There are reasons for using more than just the one season before and after, obvioiusly it is over your head, so just focus on the above...also rather than just using your ONE example of the season where they only won two less games when he first retired, and just the 11 game increase in his rookie year, and then ignore all the other before/after instances he provided.
The other stuff went over your head in regard to how Jordan had to go through those defensive teams, and him having to carry that load, without nearly the help Magic had. If you don't realize that Jabbar was the man the Lakers went to in crunch time, then you didn't watch enough of those games. It wasn't until Jabbar was an old man that it started to change.
You are also completely glossing over the defensive end of the spectrum...but I guess basketball dummies would do something like that. Magic getting lit up by John Paxson really was a sight to behold, LOL.
During the 80's, the western conference was weak. The Lakers were the only dominant team in there. The east had the top teams, usually three teams better than any of the Laker's competition in the west. Not just one year wonder teams, but consistently excellent.
The reason the bulls vs the lakers were brought up is because it was Jordan directly vs. Magic. Magic had plenty of weapons...of course he did not have Jabbar, cause he could never win one without him.
Of course Jordan wasn't going to win a title as early as Magic did...the Bulls roster was awful. Just like Jeter never would have won a title with the roster of the kanas city royals...yet an astute observer would rate him as good, and NOT hold the roster against him. Magic simply added the other super star they needed to win a championship.
But looking above, Jordan's team's improved as good or better as Magic's....not even counting the year Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman all left.
<< <i>Of course there are reasons for using more than just the one year, but it was YOU who wanted to blather about too many “variables” and what not. And there’s something to be said for that as well. I was responding to what you wanted by trying to eliminate many of Lastly, I’ve never knocked Jordan for not winning right away. The point is that Magic made a HUGE impact and made it right away and it was obvious to anyone who knows anything about basketball. It was a point of a huge positive for him. The point still stands that Jordan only elevated them 11 games in his first season. Unlike a Magic who did a +13 even with a team that was good to begin with and lost key pieces in the transition. Not to mention Bird and LeBron who were also very impressive in completely turning around their franchises. With Jordan, if he is THAT good in a bubble, and with his team only having won 27 games, you’d think the room for improvement was there for him to win 45-50 games. My point still stands that if I’m starting a franchise from scratch, without knowing who else is going to be on that team, my first pick is Magic. >>
All the rest you said is just poohuckey, so lets focus on this.
You keep harping on the fact that Jordan only elevated his rookie year team to 11 more wins, and ignore all the years where Jordan's addition/subraction meant an average of 18 wins(not even counting the year where they all left).
Then you go on and on about praising Magic's addition of 13 wins to his rookie year team. Also, do not forget that this was Michael Cooper's coming out party too, and how good a defensive shut down player he was. He filled a role that Dantley did not fit. It was better for the TEAM. SO it wasn't just Magic fella. Cooper was HUGE. You seem to not understand the importance of defense. U haven't mentioned it once! Probably because you are a jeter fan.
If you get THAT excited over Magic's addition of 13 wins, then you MUST get excited over the 18 wins that Jordan's teams averaged in his addition/subtraction years.
Also, is 13 wins that much greater than 11 where you get soo excited?
When Magic retired, the Lakers went down 15 games, and made it to the first round of the playoffs...after coming off a finals appearance.
So in totality....
Magic's team's averaged a difference of 14 wins in his addition/subtraction years. They gained one title in there, and they made it to the second round of the playoffs and first round of the playoffs in the years without him.
Jordan's team's averged a difference of 18 wins in his addition subtractin years. They had two instances going from non title, to a title with addition/subtraction of Jordan.
All that is Not even counting the final time Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman retired where they went down 49 games. You saying that Jordan wasn't at least as responsible for a third of those 49 game difference??
But lets look at that last year and compare that to Magic's FIRST year! It is basically the same, but in reverse.
Look what Jordan meant to a franchise when he left...yeah he had elite help...just like Magic did when he CAME to his franchise!
You say you recognize how bad Jordan's rookie year roster was, but then you hold that against him anyway by stating how impressive it was for Magic to lead 'his' team to a title in his rookie year, despite Jabbar being the MVP for that season. Again, Jordan's final year showed what he meant to a franchise, and they both had elite help!
You keep bringing up how Pippen(and the addition of Kukoc and other smaller key pieces) led the BUlls to the playoffs the year Jordan left. You conveniently forget to mention their second round elimination, and the the fact how much better the Bulls were in the sandwich years with Jordan(I added the hard numbers above that you ignored again)...and the fact that the Bulls won titles in the sandwich years.
Hmmm, before Magic got to the Lakers, they made it to the second round of the playoffs as well.
Sorry I had to wreck your misinformed and INCOMPLETE notion about what Jordan's presence meant to teams.
Your point doesn't stand on any merit about starting a franchise with Magic. Unless that team has Jabbar and Cooper
It is only opinion about you saying the competition was better
'83-'84, 27-55....'84-'85, 38-44
'85-'86, 21-43....'85-'86, 9-9 wth him playing
'93-'94, 55-27.....'92-'93, 57-25
'94-'95, 33-32.....'95-'96 72-10, plus 14-3 the end of the previous year when he came back
'00-'01, 19-63.....'01-'02, 33-30
'01-'02 7-15 when he was hurt
'03-'04, 25-57.....'02-'03 37-45
187-292 without
260-166 with.
I don't even put a lot of stock of doing something such as that, because the variables are too high. However, when guys like you attempt to do it, and then do it incompletely like you did, then I put it up there to give a more accurate reading. THat is also why I was using a two year block earlier for those Bulls teams right in the middle of the double three peate.
Since you ignore the importance of temmates in regard to Magic Johnson, and think Jabbar is some fool, and then don't even know who Michael Cooper is(and say something stupid like how do you know he was a good defender), then it should be just as reasonable to include Jordan's last retirement witht the Bulls, where they went down 49 games.
You must not have watched those early 80's Laker games. Jabbar was the guy they went to in crunch time.
Just saying a guy can shoot more to get more points doesn't equate. Then the shooting percentages goes down, because he has to force and take take bad shots, and his teams would lose all the time. Jordan was able to get to the basket supremely, among also posting, and shooting, and running. Jordan kept his shooting percentage high for a two guard. Jordan rebounded, and had assists as well. He also stole the ball, blocked shots, and clamped down on defense.
One can manufacture a triple double. 16pts,10boards, 10assists is a triple double...but is not better than 40 pts 6 assist, 6 boards(which is not a triple double) Add that one guy played defense supremely better, and you hav an easy winner.
Jordan left after a first threepete title, and they didn't win without him. THat is ONE right there. He came back and they won. That is TWO right there.
Even though I wasn't counting it, Jordan's last retirement from the BUlls they won a title, then did not when he retired. That would be THREE to Magic's ONE, LOL!
If you don't understand the importance of defense, and a guy like Michael Cooper that you totally discounted in your Adrian Dantley rant, then it shows your ignorance...however, we already know that in your defense of Jeter over the years.
League Talk:
FYI, the entire league was not weak during Jordan's title era, it shifted to more defensive minded teams, AND physical strategies...which made it even harder for Jordan to do his thing...and probably shifted because of Jordan. Also, Jordan squared off with Magic, and beat him.
From '84-'86 the league averaged 110 points a game at the height of Magic's run
For Jordan's last two title years the league averaged 96 points a game.
From an individual standpoint, it was easier to rack up rebounds, assists, and points for Magic...because there were more shots being taken in the league during those years.
However, I am not arguing the Lakers vs the BUlls. Those 80's Laker's teams WERE better than those Bulls teams. They had a top three center of all-time in Jabbar, and probably the fifth best guard of all time on their team, in Magic. Plus more.
I would say to you, "stick to baseball," however, that is lacking as well.
Saberman - I have thoroughly enjoyed this discourse you have had with baseball on this subject (and am on your side in the argument), but I'm curious who else you have in front of Magic? I assume Jordan and Oscar Robertson....who are the other two?
Where do you put Bird all time?
I put Jordan and Russell ahead of him, probably Jabbar, too.
<< <i>Bird is a tough one to slot because injuries really took a toll on him during the last 4-5 years of his career (when he still put up all-star numbers despite barely being able to walk to the plane after games). I will say at his peak from 84-86, Bird was better than Magic was at any point in his career. He was probably as good, if not a better passer than Magic (certainly the best passing forward of all-time), was an infinitely better shooter, and played much better team defense than Magic. For me, it's not close.
>>
I agree with that assessmet. At his peak, Bird may have been as good as anyone.
You weren't expressing opinions, you were passing along incomplete information.
I posted all the before/after comparisons for Jordan's team's for the accurate picture, as opposed to the one time where his team only went down two games, and you only look at that, and ignore everything else. SO it isn't my opinion, or yours...it is the whole before/after/without facts I posted for you, as opposed to your selective sampling.
Yes, they did have three title differences in the immediate years, compared ot Magic's one. Regardless if he played just the end of that one season and they lost those playoffs with him, it is still the year after results that truly matter. That team played most of the year without him, and played .500 ball in his absence, is still mostly a different team compared to the following title year. Even though he came at the end, the damage was already done, as they were like the 5th seed or something. It is more difficult to win a title being a 5th seed. Or, do I have to explain why that is to you as well??? So yes, it is a title impact that he made in that case!
I'd say three title impacts is a bigger impact on an organization, as opposed to one.
You didn't get my point about Cooper, and you probably never will.
I edit, because I have to go back and forth through the posts all the time and respond to simple answers that you shouldn't even be posting or asking. It takes too much time to do such things when you don't even understand 'givens', or when you completely ignore important facts. Also, I'm not writing a novel here, so who cares.
You say no young player is going to come in and take the team over an established super star? Then in all your other posts you give magic the lions share of the credit for those first few years with the lakers???? LOL.
You are underestimating Jabbar's ability, and the importance of hitting the go to shot, and overestimating the difficulty in dropping the ball down into him to do that!
Magic was a great complement to Jabbar, neither of which would have won titles on those teams without each other...so stop acting as if Magic is the only reason, and more so than superior players who won less(or in Jordan's case who won MORE, but you try to discount it for other unfounded reasons).
<< <i>Saberman,
Jordan had plenty of help. Not as much as Magic, but you didn’t need that much in the 1990s. But you don’t get that, and you probably never will. >>
You are passing that off as if that is law
It comes back to what the player was capable of, and your only rebute to what the player was capable of was how much each impacted a team...and you incompletely painted a picture in regard to that, trying to make it look like Magic's presence/absence to a team was noticeably greater than Jordan's, and you used W/L and championships as your example. But your examples were incomplete. THe many examples actually showed the opposite conclusion to your hypothesis.
By the way, all I really said about Jabbar was that he was the guy they went to in crunch time, and that they never won one wtihout him either.
Jordan was a better offensive player than Magic, and he was a far better defender who guarded the better offensive players more often than Magic.
Plus Magic had the luxury of spending more years in a high scoring NBA environment(a fact which you have still neglected). It is easier to rack up points, rebounds, and assists when there are more shots being taken throughout the league.
You keep harping on the 90's. They were very strong, but it was more of a defensive league, as evidence of the scoring going way down, and watching how they played defense. All this makes it even more amazing to what Jordan did individually against defense like that.
You also made light of the Utah Jazz as opponents, despite them having two long time all time greats on that time, and winning 64 and 62 games both those years, and the following year going 37-13 in the short season. Yes, that team WAS for real, and was NOT some flash in the pan. Even though that really has nothing to do with Jordan's ability as a player, or Magic's.
I would like to discuss the ramifications of the other conference having the top teams in the league as well, but there is a lot here right now already. Though, that really has nothing to do with Magic or Jordan's ability as a player....that would be an effect on the team...and we already know that Jordan's teams were outstanding.
You say they would have won three or four without Kareem? How do you know? Magic had his chance for that, and he didn't win any!
Jordan was a better offensive player than Magic, and he was a far better defender who guarded the better offensive players more often than Magic. That is the bottom line between the two.
You are hung up on thinking I said Jabbar was the driving force. Above is all I am saying about him. Magic was a better player at that time. I brought Jabbar into the mix because you gave Magic all this credit for the Lakers winning it his rookie year...and then slighted Jordan on his 'lack' of difference in his rookie year.
You also discredied Jordan by saying the Bulls only won two less games when he retired. They got eliminated in the second round that year...the same round the Lakers got to before Magic. Yet, you gave this wide disparity between each of their impact.
You went on and on about Magic's +13 games difference his rookie year. You neglected all the +/- Jordan meant to his teams...more so than Magic's.
You keep glossing over the difference I pointed out that Jordan meant to his team. His plus/minus was high in terms of wins and losses. His plus/minus was also high in terms of championships. THREE to Magic's ONE.
Again, I only brought that up because you did an incomplete and poor job when you entered that aspect into the conversation.
You are probably diverting the argument from where it was, and that was the plus/minus that you slighted Jordan on....and gave Magic too much credit.
I bring up the 90's for an individual standpoint from Jordan's contribution in an environment where it was harder to get points, as opposed to the early 80's where it was easier. Also, those teams are better than you think.
Here is the +/- for Jordan's teams. It isn't just two games like you think.
'83-'84, 27-55....'84-'85, 38-44
'85-'86, 21-43....'85-'86, 9-9 wth him playing
'93-'94, 55-27.....'92-'93, 57-25
'94-'95, 33-32.....'95-'96 72-10, plus 14-3 the end of the previous year when he came back
'00-'01, 19-63.....'01-'02, 33-30
'01-'02 7-15 when he was hurt
'03-'04, 25-57.....'02-'03 37-45
187-292 without
260-166 with.
You should probably iron our your deficiencies in analyzing baseball, before you enter into another realm. Namely, understand Jeter's defensive problems.
In that case, I completely agree.
All-time NBA career points.
1. 38,387 - Kareem
2. 36,928 - Mailman
3. 36,854 - LeBron
LeBron will likely pass the Mailman this week and then we're looking at another 1459 points to pass Kareem; or approximately 59 games at 25 points per game.
Quite the accomplishment, but I still wouldn't rank him #1 or #2, but maybe #3.
P.S. 10159 career rebounds and 10007 career assists. Not bad.
Lebron at his age I can say with absolute confidence is the best player of all time. At over 37...what he is doing is incredible. Lakers can't blame him. His stats are awesome. Even FT% is up this year. Just awesome.
Word on the street is that his breath is very bad, hard to defend........
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
Nobody - nobody - has had as many seasons as an elite player as LeBron has. He's putting up 30/8/6 at age 37. Kareem did 22/8/3 at that age. Kobe put up 18 a game. Michael was retired before coming back for 2 decent seasons. He's been the best, or arguably the best, player in the NBA for 18 straight seasons. 18. Straight. Seasons.
In terms of peak, I'd probably still take Jordan. Not because of championships because those ares a dumb measurement (Robert Horry says hello). Not because he never lost a Finals because that just rewards him for losing early and most people who mention it ignore that he lost in-between the two threepeats.
No, I'd still take Jordan because he was just better. His game had a slightly higher ceiling.
I have always thought that Wilt never got his due in modern times. To me MJ is the GOAT. Alot of the things that a player does that makes everyone around them better does not necessarily come into the stats. I think that is where MJ has something over LJ. But WC compares favorably to LJ even without the 18 years:
His slightly shorter career compares favorably to LJ, I would at least put them in a tie for 2nd to MJ............. He won seven scoring, eleven rebounding, nine durability, and nine field goal percentage titles, and he led the league in assists once.
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
I think Wilt is simultaneously overrated and underrated. His numbers are insane but they are obviously a product of an era that inflated individual stats. No chance anybody averages 50 a game or anywhere close now. Realistically, he's a 28/12 guy today. Or similar to Jokic.
On the other hand, he is often ignored in GOAT. It's LeBron or MJ. His level of dominance was unprecedented and not seen since and he should be in that conversation. Thus underrated.