2011 YANKEES DISCUSSION
MattyC
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in Sports Talk
Let me preface this rant by saying I appreciate all the great things Derek Jeter has done in pinstripes. He has been a very, very good player. A steady, positive force. Yet he has been paid and applauded properly for that performance, and, like with any job, you have to perform today.
While admittedly neither Gardner nor any other option for the top of the Yankee order has been an obvious improvement over Jeter, the way Girardi apologizes for and ignores Jeter's utter lack of productivity is terribly frustrating. Girardi just can't sack up and manage to win today, and drop Jeter in the order the way say Mattingly was dropped when he began to tail off. And Mattingly accepted that drop in the order like a man. Girardi is letting a superstar name manage him, instead of the other way around, as it should be.
"The bottom line is he is getting his hits," Girardi said. "He is finding ways to get his hits and that's the important thing."
Really? Because the math on Jeter does not seem to reflect that:
104 AB - 26 H - .250 AVG - 2 2B - 0 3B - 0 HR - 11 INFIELD HITS - 24 SINGLES - 9 LINE DRIVES.
GIRARDI IN APRIL: "Well, it's too early to say anything. After 100-150 at-bats, then we'd have a good sample."
GIRARDI ON MAY 3: "I think if it goes on for three or four months, that would be alarming. It's still early. I don't want to judge a guy with one-sixth of his at-bats. Maybe he won't put up 40 doubles, but he has been getting his hits."
So the Yanks have a .250 singles hitter who grounds into an alarming amount of double plays clogging up the top of their order. But he's an icon who used to be great, so let's hurt our chances of winning in 2011 by keeping him in the 1 or 2 hole. Fans and management can celebrate the guy all we want, let's just not celebrate him in a way that hurts the current team.
And as to the team's .200 hitting DH...man does he look awful. The Yankee DH should be giving the team much more production, but again the team's allegiance to aging heroes is hurting its current chances. I used to be able to hit 88-90 MPH, and when the bat speed drops off, you find yourself only tattooing the ball when you guess right. And when you only hit when you guess right, your average looks a heck of a lot like Posada's.
While admittedly neither Gardner nor any other option for the top of the Yankee order has been an obvious improvement over Jeter, the way Girardi apologizes for and ignores Jeter's utter lack of productivity is terribly frustrating. Girardi just can't sack up and manage to win today, and drop Jeter in the order the way say Mattingly was dropped when he began to tail off. And Mattingly accepted that drop in the order like a man. Girardi is letting a superstar name manage him, instead of the other way around, as it should be.
"The bottom line is he is getting his hits," Girardi said. "He is finding ways to get his hits and that's the important thing."
Really? Because the math on Jeter does not seem to reflect that:
104 AB - 26 H - .250 AVG - 2 2B - 0 3B - 0 HR - 11 INFIELD HITS - 24 SINGLES - 9 LINE DRIVES.
GIRARDI IN APRIL: "Well, it's too early to say anything. After 100-150 at-bats, then we'd have a good sample."
GIRARDI ON MAY 3: "I think if it goes on for three or four months, that would be alarming. It's still early. I don't want to judge a guy with one-sixth of his at-bats. Maybe he won't put up 40 doubles, but he has been getting his hits."
So the Yanks have a .250 singles hitter who grounds into an alarming amount of double plays clogging up the top of their order. But he's an icon who used to be great, so let's hurt our chances of winning in 2011 by keeping him in the 1 or 2 hole. Fans and management can celebrate the guy all we want, let's just not celebrate him in a way that hurts the current team.
And as to the team's .200 hitting DH...man does he look awful. The Yankee DH should be giving the team much more production, but again the team's allegiance to aging heroes is hurting its current chances. I used to be able to hit 88-90 MPH, and when the bat speed drops off, you find yourself only tattooing the ball when you guess right. And when you only hit when you guess right, your average looks a heck of a lot like Posada's.
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Comments
The great wall is starting to crack!
I have a feeling Sox fans are going to be having this same discussion about Pedroia about 5-6 years from now (if not sooner). His decline will be even more precipitous than Jeter's since his swing is so long.
I agree with you entirely about the incremental upgrade any of our current options would provide at the top of the order. You are also dead on that a 2011 season of this caliber points to much greater issues.
I suppose what irks me so much is the lack of accountability, the 'Ho-hum, we are the Yankees so everything will be fine,' attitude that Jeter and moreso Girardi project. I wish we had an old-school manager who was not afraid to call out performance and make decisions based on performance-- not the player's popularity. The guy is performing very poorly and the manager not only refuses to acknowledge it with his words or actions, he goes on camera and flat out bs's us.
What's funny is this: had A-Rod been the one with a problem in his swing, had he been given guidance by Long, and had he been so fast to abandon the new solutions, how would the media jump on him? Yet Jeter does this and relatively skates by in the court of public opinion. Meanwhile A-Rod was the one who switched positions so that he could coexist with Jeter. Just an observation on how Jeter gets by with things other (even sometimes better) players cannot.
Again, this is not to hate on the guy-- he's been a star for us. But the team comes first and everyone's individual time to shine comes and eventually goes. We can love him for what he did, but we also have to win now; we have to judge today's players by what they are doing on the field this season, not years ago.
Here's another interesting topic: Swisher and Tex's postseason career stats. Donny had almost as many XBH in one playoff series as both these guys combined over 100+ AB's each. After how many post season AB's is someone's wilting under pressure a trend based on their make-up? In any profession, there are guys who thrive under the hot lights and guys who just don't. The NY Yankees especially need men made of the former cloth. An honest study of Swish and Tex's stats seems to indicate they are the latter.
EDIT: oh, and then there's the pitching. Combined with our reliance on the longball, it feels like a disastrous result is ahead for us in any short playoff series. One has to think gravity is going to catch up to a rotation that features Colon, Garcia, Burnett, and Nova. Nova has flashes of being very good, but always seems to fade around the 5th inning. I can't imagine the flaws in this team's rotation and reliance on the HR not being exposed bigtime over the course of the long season. We're going to need this little 5-game lead in 1st now to stay relevant when the wheels come off Colon, Garcia, and Burnett. And oh, they will. It may even be spectacular to watch. We might see Wang/Igawa esque stats from them later on.
The Phil thing is so mysterious, and his first half 2010 form will be missed. As will Pettitte be missed if we make it to October. Still can't believe we were looking at CC, Lee, Andy, AJ, and Phil, and then suddenly we get... this.
I can see us in the playoffs getting bounced just like the later Torre years. Anyone behind CC can implode, and any good pitcher can shut down our HR bats. One bad start from CC in a playoff series and we're toast. Gotta hope Bucholz, Lackey, Dice-K, and Beckett stay equally shaky behind Lester, who is the real deal. The problem is I can see anyone of those Sox starters throwing a gem of a game on a good day-- can we say the same for AJ, Colon, Garcia, and Nova?
I am not making excuses. I am just stating facts.
Saying that, it's still early. I remember a few years ago when Jeter also got off to a bad start, when some Yankee fans actually booed Derek Jeter. I remember that caused a lot of debate, but Jeter turned it around later. I think the question now is whether Jeter will turn it around since he's older now. In the pre-steroids era, I think this is the age when most players started exhibiting steady declines. The thing about the Yankees is that it's not like the entire batting lineup is old. Cano and Teixeira should still be in their primes. Probably the Yanks should just pick up Jose Reyes, move Jeter to the outfield and be done with it. JK!
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As to today's game, in progress, I can't help feeling like we're going to see many, many more performances like this from Colon and Garcia over the course of a 162 game season. Those two guys are old and were on the brink of oblivion, and somehow they are now starters on the highest paid team in MLB. Kind of amazing how Cashman and the brain trust could wind up with a rotation this shaky. The early success from Colon and Garcia I think will be anomalous, when all is said and done.
Nova and AJ may hold their form. And wouldn't that be a great surprise: Nova stepping up into Phil Hughes-like form while Hughes is out with...that expert-defying mystery ailment. Great job from Nova yesterday.
I say he does what he always has done. Prove everyone wrong. All the people saying he is done. Will eat their words. He is still a great baseball player imo. Today's performance reminded me of the late 90s Jeter.
And man is Granderson killing the ball.
I've seen some of the worst defense in years from this team. Bunts popped up this week by Jeter and Gardner. Poor base running.
And above all: the batting with RISP. Whoa, is it bad. Savvy fans are seeing that Swisher is junk; his postseason stats (over 100 ABs) jive so neatly with his abject failures in the clutch this year. But he'll have one game next week and jump around like a fool with that stupid grin, and the media will forget he's batting .150 in the clutch.
And Arod is just joining Jeets in putting together a shockingly powerless year while batting around .250-.275.
This is like a worse version of the dead Torre years: a beer league softball team that may make the playoffs only to get pantsed by a hungrier team that plays like a team. I find myself rooting against them at times, because only losses will spur the bosses on to make the key personnel changes they need to become a hungry, cohesive team again. Starters with real upside. Guys who haven't won it all multiple times, who are hungry to live up to the storied past of the uniform. Guys like we had in '96, guys like Arod and Tex and CC were in '09. Why not put Montero's bat at the DH role and see what happens? He projects as a solid .300 hitter. Look at the paltry production we are getting from the DH slot. The Yankee DH should be a lethal hitter. Andruw Jones? The 2012 version of Jeter? 2011 Posada? This DH slot is not helping the team win.
Added: Nick Swisher is 0-17 with 2 out and RISP. Most such AB's in MLB this season.
I love all this negative talk!
Is there not something available where we can get it to come on our computers. I know what you mean though, I get upset when I can not
watch the Red Sox on Saturday's when Fox has exclusive rights and they put on some stupid game that I do not have any interest in.
I'm shocked Colon is still holding up. But AJ returned to form his last start and snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.
Of course after his first hit all season in the clutch yesterday, Swisher is off acting like he won the WS MVP.
Hopefully A-Rod can maintain some semblance of consistency, and Posada can raise that avg into the low .200s. What I'd give for this team to have one consistent .300+ hitter. This team feels so much like those useless later Torre teams: all streaky hitters. If they are all switched on at once, great, but if the opposite is the case, it's famine. I'd rather guys who bat between .280-.320 every month than guys who bat .500 one month and .100 the next.
Going into yesterday, the Yankees did not have a player in the top 64 in batting average with runners in scoring position (minimum 25 plate appearances).
Yet they have four players in the bottom 52: Jorge Posada (.160), Nick Swisher (.171) Rodriguez (.182) and Derek Jeter (.186).
“I think we’re a very good offense,” general manager Brian Cashman said. “We have not hit with runners in scoring position and that makes you look inadequate, but statistically that often turns around.”
Whatever, you propaganda spewing, PR shill. God I loathe Cashman.
This team just sits around trying to hit HRs. It's all or nothing.
They just put up a great inning, scoring without the longball (and some good breaks), but the reliance on the HR over time does not bode well for the team going deep in October. Good pitching can shut the longball down. We've already seen how feast-or-famine this lineup is. I personally put more stock in their low averages, relatively low OBPs (compared to their histories), and poor hitting with RISP than I do in their run total. For example, they tend to pile it on once ahead, which is great but if we look at say a 10-1 victory followed by two low-scoring losses, they can wind up with the most runs scored in a stretch-- and it doesn't mean they are winning.
I am just a Cashman hater. I think it's appalling, the team he fields with such gaping flaws, for that kind of money. Our rotation continues to impress, but if it ever plays the way it looks like it should on paper as the season goes on, that falls a lot on the front office. It seems they had no foresight, in the event Lee and Andy didn't suit up. I hope I wind up being wrong, but Cashman and the owners' rotation is weak, their shored up bullpen's new weapon hasn't been firing, and there are dead patches in a very streaky lineup. I hope they bring up Montero and he's a real .300-type hitter. I hope the farm Cash has built pays off. But I didn't like the composition/complexion of the team last year and this year's version looks even more similar to the bad Torre years. We knew those teams would make the playoffs but deep down we also knew they would get housed by scrappy, cohesive teams with better pitching.
I agree that, position by position, the offense looks great on paper. And I agree that loading up with power hitters in a bandbox park is not unsound.
When I say Cashman, I am also including the ownership, Levine, anyone involved in assembling the roster. I feel a team needs more balance in the types of hitters in its lineup. Cano hits for a high average, but his OBP is basically his average. Jeter is coming off a low BA and OBP year. Arod's BA and OBP are also declining. The DH slot and Swisher are also bigtime underperformers. Criticizing a snapshot in time has its flaws, I'll admit, but in sports talks all we have to go on is this snapshot, and it's not an altogether small sample space, when it comes to the hitting with RISP, the low BA's, and OBP's. Four players in the bottom 52 of baseball with RISP is just terrible after a 4th of the season; can it reverse according to the prior math, sure, but look who those guys are? Jeter, Posada, and Arod are all pretty old. And Swisher has had some epically poor years, as well as a career of futility in the postseason, which mirrors the clutchtime of hitting with RISP. So it is possible that the current abysmal hitting with RISP may continue. In that case, I have to fault the brain trust, inc. Cashman, who is the faceman, for not trying to inject something new (Montero?) into the hitting mix.
So my gripes with Cashman and the braintrust are (1) the complexion of the lineup, with all its streaky HR hitters and low RISP hitting, and (2) the rotation, which I'm sure we can agree looks disastrous on paper. Maybe it will keep holding up, that would be a pleasant surprise.
It's just my opinion, but I hate how Cashman and Girardi both are so ho-hum about the Yankees flaws or poor play (when it happens). They seem like, "Oh, we're fine. We'll be in the playoffs, we're the Yankees." I just prefer guys at the top of an organization who exhibit more fire and accountability all down the line. I also think his additions of Garcia and Colon will implode soon enough, as will AJ and his awful contract. That is strictly a personal bit of speculation, but I can't help feeling it's a given. So I see how, at the moment, his additions to the staff might make him look good. I suppose I'm indicting him for something I think will happen in the future, along with the current major underperforming holes in the lineup, which may or may not continue. Only time will tell in the end.
page 2, you are all welcome.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Wipe out game so far 0/8
Boston will have to make a huge rally to come back from this one.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
The weather sucks.
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The Tigers are a scary matchup for the Yanks, if it shakes out that way. A-list pitchers can shut our high-power/mediocre-average bats down, and if we lose a CC start it doesn't bode well.
So many great surprises this year, esp how the spare part starters held together. And of course Jeter's second half has been more than so many, including myself, expected. Happy the guy proved the doubters like me wrong and hit for a solid average, albeit with diminished xbh pop. Montero looks awesome.
On the downside, Hughes and Burnett were both so very disappointing. Sad to see Phil regress in some ways, though maybe he'll bounce back in October. AJ, I just want him to be gone so badly. When you look at his stats, and then at what he gets paid, it's sickening. Dining out on "stuff" can only last so long. Too many poor annual stat lines on the back of his card just refute any lauding of his "stuff."
Never expected Boston to swoon and for the Yanks to take home field.
One topic that doesn't get discussed much in Yanks-related media: Tex's average, and for that matter his slugging and OBP, too. We paid top dollar for a .300-ish power hitter. And his lines since we acquired him look like this...
2009 - .292/383/560
2010 - .256/365/481
2011 - .244/336/480
I just think so many people stare at his HR count, and it's a specious evaluation of his performance. Then factor in his abysmal showing for us in the post season. And yet somehow he never gets called out; true, his glove is fantastic and the team is winning, but to any Yanks fan his obviously waning numbers have to be alarming. Shouldn't Cano be slotted 3rd ASAP and Tex moved to 4th or 5th?
Then there's A-Rod. The injuries seem to have really transformed him into a shell of his former self. I know there's been myriad articles calling and hoping for him to have a resurgent post season, and while I share that hope, I don't see anything from his bat that would lead us to believe this is probable. Having a hole in the 4-slot in October could be a big problem. His average has gone from .292 to about .270 since his latest return-- which means he is ice cold.
Looking beyond this year, what does the team do if Montero needs DH at bats and we have aging guys like A-Rod and Jeter needing increasing time there? If Montero's bat is The Truth can the team afford to sit him?
Last observation: while our corner outfielders are a good value, in terms of what they cost us, they are both .260 hitters. I think they have to try and upgrade at least one corner, when the opportunity arises.
<< <i>We're all too busy participating in group rips to post here..
sweet!
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Not quite.
A-Rod looks like a shell of his former self lately.
My kingdom for some pure contact hitters on this team, instead of corner OF'rs who hit .260, catcher who hits .230, etc. How I miss O'Neill and Bernie and prime Jeter. We need a rally, not guys with upper cut swings always aiming for that short porch.
Maybe this single by Posada will spark some life...
Or not. These bats look dead.
<< <i>Well game 4 about to start. They need to get their act together or its another failure. >>
I'd say this game qualifies as getting their act together.
Doug
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Let's hope the 4-5-6 hitters are awakening now; they made some solid contact today.
Mo and Robertson will be on full charge, which is another good thing.
Montero continues to impress; maybe his hits today will make Girardi think of him if we need a hit and someone is having an off game on Thursday.
Nova seems to have the wiring/makeup to thrive in the pressure situations, which bodes well.
Should be one heck of a Game 5.
Gotta give props to the Rangers for losing Cliff Lee and still making it back to the CS.
Also got me some Nathans
I'm pumped I don't have to look at Jeter jack-knife his body out of the way of a fastball piped right down the middle of the plate anymore.
;-)
Just another no-name Tiger player that gets no attention, just like all the others not named Verlander or Cabrera. He's been getting it done pretty much all season. Plays everywhere- OF, 3B, 1B, C, and even pitched an inning this season.... We like Don!
<< <i>Love my Tigers! And it's especially sweet to beat New York.
I'm pumped I don't have to look at Jeter jack-knife his body out of the way of a fastball piped right down the middle of the plate anymore. >>
Wasn't it glorious to watch two straight Yankees' seasons end with an Arod K???
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I am sure glad the Yankees beat us out on him. I just wish they had gotten Lackey too.
<< <i>A-Rod minus juice = failure..... >>
Yep pretty much. IMO I think its time to let some people go. A-Roid, Tex, AJ, Swisher, Girardi, and Michael Kay. All need to go.
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If ARod CAN'T JUICE, he CAN'T PRODUCE!
ROFL!!!
Growing up in NY as a Sox fan I have an interesting perspective. I love Granderson; he seems to be a nice guy and what can't you say about his play? I'd take him for 1/3 of the year at twice the salary of Big Dud Crawford. I can't crap on the corner outfielders; I'm more scared of them than of Jeter Peter Eater and A Rod at this point. Tex cancels out Crawford and Gonzalez eclipses Cano.
So it comes again to pitching. The rest of the league should pitch in and pay Phil Hughes salary. I predicted a 2.1, 6H, 6ER line for Nova in the big game but I'm willing to believe he hurt his forearm. I also believe Bush got more votes than Al Gore.
Here's a King and His Court Scenario for you: Gonzalez, Cano, Pedroia, Jeter in a shift and 3 popcorn vendors in the OF versus the NL All Stars. Want to take any action??? Depends on who's pitching, I suppose...
In the 2011 ALDS, ARod, Tex, and Swisher combined to go 9-55.
In the 1995 ALDS, Don Mattingly, hobbled and far removed from his prime, went 10-24.
This is no longer a team of men, but coddled, overpaid, glorified softball-type hitters who melt under the harsh lights of October.
Tex and Swisher especially. I was HARPING on this like a broken record back at the season's start and history has now repeated itself for a third consecutive time for these two guys. Some men just can't step up under pressure, and all available performance history indicates Tex and Swish are two such men.
Props to Posada and Gardner and also Cano for showing up.
Russell Martin is a sad hitter, and we need to find a way to get Montero behind the plate or at least up to the plate with a bat in hand.
Jeter... Respect his durability, his great moments with the team, and his prime was excellent... He proved me and many others wrong in the second half... But his postseason showing was far from solid. He now K's way too much for a player with so little power.
This offense was constructed to win games in which the pitching yields only 3 runs, and they failed miserably. They were wildly inconsistent, erupting for big runs then going into huge draughts.
Until the management purges the lineup of these Giambi softball-types and creates a more multi-dimensional offense, this team isn't winning anything in October. We need some contact hitters-- the averages of the Boston and Tigers hitters come to mind. Up and down those guys are in the .290s and .300s. The Yanks except Cano are all .260, with Tex, Posada, and Martin well below that lowly mark. Facing October pitching, we just can't hit bombs every time up. Now and then a base hit will deliver, and we don't have any pure hitters outside perhaps Cano.
And the contracts, whoa. This A-Rod deal will go down as the worst in MLB history. In terms of money given for performance, AJ's can't be too far off. And 180M for Tex's power and glove but .248 and vanishing act in October is no good deal either. He was a .290 hitter before joining NY. Point is these wilting prima dona's in October can't be moved. Gotta watch them age ugly and get bounced in the first round some more before they have a chance to field a truly different team.
When they won in 1996-2000, they were no beer league softball slugger team. For a decade now-- except 09-- they have been getting bounced early, and the complexion of the offense has been a constant. The bats vanished last year against Texas also. Would love to see them at least get rid of Swisher, that would be a start. Anyone can do better in October, when the Yanks are supposed to win, given what they spend. They'll make it there again with Swisher's B+ reg season numbers replaced.
I must say, I LOVED seeing him strikeout for the final nail in the Yankee's season. And no, I don't think it bothered him one iota.
To be fair, the Rick Patino 7 years for $70m was the biggest bust the Celtics ever experienced. After 4 dismal outings he finally got canned.