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Coin Doctors "almost" got us.
beckes
Posts: 158
WHat some people will do to make a buck. I must say that this, in a sick way, requires quite an artist. We caught on to him from a tip and EBay did make it right. I see the same coins have come back a few times. There were more, all bought from Heritage and cleaned or whizzed, then the Doc did his/her thing.
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Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
They were shut down, but come back under various names. There are also counterfeit coins in various slabs, which I have reported to a TPG. As far as hoping no one spent much on these.......they had more than 100K in about 2 weeks of sales. Remember, the pics posted on EBay were nothing of the resolution here. You cound not see the whizzing at all.
<< <i>Pretty basic fraud. The 'doctor' in question (I don't know who it is) is an amateur based on the images posted. Cracking out problem coins and trying to hide their defects and sell them raw has been a 'business model' followed by many scamsters for several years; often with great financial success. Hopefully nobody would be seriously tempted to pay serious money for either of the raw coins imaged here. Both show obvious big red flags. >>
This particular doctor is a "quack"...
<< <i>The 1837 looks harshly cleaned, but I don't see the whiz lines. Anyone care to point it out? >>
I don't see them either. Maybe I can't see the forest for the trees.
<< <i>Both show obvious big red flags. >>
Please point out those big red flags.
<< <i>Please point out those big red flags. >>
Obvious AT, for starters.
<< <i>The 1837 looks harshly cleaned, but I don't see the whiz lines. Anyone care to point it out? >>
I agree it is hard to see, but I think I am picking it up behind Miss Liberty.
<< <i>
<< <i>The 1837 looks harshly cleaned, but I don't see the whiz lines. Anyone care to point it out? >>
I agree it is hard to see, but I think I am picking it up behind Miss Liberty. >>
That area behind Liberty (the right obverse field) looks like a fingerprint to me.
<< <i>
<< <i>Please point out those big red flags. >>
Obvious AT, for starters. >>
If you browse Heritage, there are a number of these with similar color that are legit.
To me, the half looks more like it was buffed or polished?
<< <i>Why would someone whiz a proof? >>
Agree. Proofs should be polished rather than whizzed.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>The 1837 looks harshly cleaned, but I don't see the whiz lines. Anyone care to point it out? >>
I agree it is hard to see, but I think I am picking it up behind Miss Liberty. >>
Yes. Also note that, considering the paucity of wear, the coin seems shiny.
The marks (scratches and pits) seem to have rounded (vs. sharp) edges.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Put any piece of metal, coin included, on a wire wheel and it will be obvious to you what whizzing looks like! The 1837 should be pictured in the dictionary under "whizzing"! >>
Absolutely...... classic, text-book examples of whizzing.
These shouldn't fool anyone.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>I don't get any off this post. Was ebat selling them as raw coins or in the holders shown?
To me, the half looks more like it was buffed or polished? >>
After I bought some raw coins, I got an email telling me the coins were doctored. The person sent me the links to HA and sure enough, they were bought in those holders and doctored as you see here. I had 4 total, and the 1879 is a guy from CA who I contacted after I saw his coin was doctored the same as all 4 of mine.
The EBay seller really had a great scam going. Grampa passed away and all these coins were in the bank for 40 years etc. (Even put them in what looked like 40 year old 2X2. Yes, for the first time in my life, I took it hook line and sinker, as did about 30 other folks. I did seek advice on the coloring of at least one of the coins from a VERY prominant coin person, and by pictures alone, nothing looked wrong. EBay said they would not be allowed to sell again, they have ways of knowing. YA RIGHT! They also have shills who will bid coins way up and leave great feedback. When the 1879 was purchased Again, I sent another email. The person responded with, I know and trust this seller, coin is perfect. Even after seeing the pics I posted here!
Not to be a wiseacre...but all it takes is a good pair of eyes and 20 years experience. Seriously, anybody who would eagerly bid on either of those raw coins without concerns over their 'look' needs to go 'back to school' IMO. And once in hand...I'm sure the ability to ferret out the problems would be even easier, so anybody who would have bought more than one from the same seller was really looking for trouble. Again, just my opinion, but 'big red flags' which shouldn't need to be pointed out include but are not limited to:
1. THEY ARE RAW for chris sakes!!! Colored toned coins which aren't authenticated by a reputable 3rd party grading service should be inherently suspect to EVERYONE. Sure some are legit. Many more aren't. So if you need me to point out this first obvious 'big red flag' read no more and go back to school on AT detection;
2. The color patterns on both scream AT to me all day long. The color progression, the pinkish fields over obviously circulated surfaces just don't look like anything authentic I've seen.
3. The whizzing (I'd almost call them scratches) on the Trade Dollar are painfully evident in the field area under Liberty's hand. They extend all the way down to the main design and horizontal scratches or whizzes are clear from the left stars inward. I would call these 'arms length' red flags. You don't need a loupe to see that crap!
Perhaps I'm being overly harsh at this point, but I think both coins are quite ugly and I wouldn't have given either of them a second thought just from an appearance point of view so I wouldn't of had to worry about being fooled by a tampered with coin. I understand every coin, even a problem coin, has some value, but these two examples shouldn't be confused with problem free raw coins.
My caveat here is the OP says the current raw images are much more detailed than the auction images, so it is likely the obvious problems we see here may have not been so obvious in less accurate images. I have to think, however, that it would be hard to make these two stinkpots look like anything but trouble in an auction photo.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
<< <i>Please point out those big red flags.
Not to be a wiseacre...but all it takes is a good pair of eyes and 20 years experience. Seriously, anybody who would eagerly bid on either of those raw coins without concerns over their 'look' needs to go 'back to school' IMO. And once in hand...I'm sure the ability to ferret out the problems would be even easier, so anybody who would have bought more than one from the same seller was really looking for trouble. Again, just my opinion, but 'big red flags' which shouldn't need to be pointed out include but are not limited to:
1. THEY ARE RAW for chris sakes!!! Colored toned coins which aren't authenticated by a reputable 3rd party grading service should be inherently suspect to EVERYONE. Sure some are legit. Many more aren't. So if you need me to point out this first obvious 'big red flag' read no more and go back to school on AT detection;
2. The color patterns on both scream AT to me all day long. The color progression, the pinkish fields over obviously circulated surfaces just don't look like anything authentic I've seen.
3. The whizzing (I'd almost call them scratches) on the Trade Dollar are painfully evident in the field area under Liberty's hand. They extend all the way down to the main design and horizontal scratches or whizzes are clear from the left stars inward. I would call these 'arms length' red flags. You don't need a loupe to see that crap!
Perhaps I'm being overly harsh at this point, but I think both coins are quite ugly and I wouldn't have given either of them a second thought just from an appearance point of view so I wouldn't of had to worry about being fooled by a tampered with coin. I understand every coin, even a problem coin, has some value, but these two examples shouldn't be confused with problem free raw coins.
My caveat here is the OP says the current raw images are much more detailed than the auction images, so it is likely the obvious problems we see here may have not been so obvious in less accurate images. I have to think, however, that it would be hard to make these two stinkpots look like anything but trouble in an auction photo. >>
We can't all be you! Some of us do buy a bad coin (or 4) sometimes.
Cheers!
<< <i>Please post a link to the auctions for these coins. I'd love to take a look. Thanks...Mike >>
I can't. More than 90 days old.
Go look at my continuation of this thread and you will see the same foolishness going on.
If you are a detective at heart, go investigate, not only the auctions of this account, but also the buyers. Some have 95% interaction with the seller.
By the way, if they end up on EBay, they can end up anywhere. Including your shops. Based on the fact that I seem to be one of the only one who has seen this, then get blasted for pointing it out, would indicate that it might be WAY worse than it is.
FAKE coins in slabs. How do you combat this?
You will say "buy the coin not the slab", but guess what. If the slab no longer means anything, we are all in trouble, BIG TIME!
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
<< <i>
<< <i>Please post a link to the auctions for these coins. I'd love to take a look. Thanks...Mike >>
I can't. More than 90 days old.
Go look at my continuation of this thread and you will see the same foolishness going on.
If you are a detective at heart, go investigate, not only the auctions of this account, but also the buyers. Some have 95% interaction with the seller. >>
So, is it safe to presume the seller in both threads is one and the same?
<< <i>[
So, is it safe to presume the seller in both threads is one and the same? >>
Please re-read. It is safe to assume the buyers are working with the seller. Look at the feedback received. Do you see the same personpersons over and over?
If you are being intentionally coy in fear of repercussions, a PM would be fine.
<< <i>I re-read your posts and have taken a quick look at the seller identified in the other thread. I did not see anything, and I would prefer for you to be clear in your allegations.
If you are being intentionally coy in fear of repercussions, a PM would be fine. >>
Greetings:
I have nothing to hide. EBay is a public forum.
This buyer sure likes the seller right????
Feedback left for a scammer!
.........they are beautiful coins , eBay and the seller are swell..........., all you posters are like son's to me
and I love PCGS ...........God Bless Tiny Tim
<< <i> all you posters are like son's to me
>>
Sweet I call dibs on the Roosie!
Edit: and Toto too?
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>I can't say anything negative per rule#7
.........they are beautiful coins , eBay and the seller are swell..........., all you posters are like son's to me
and I love PCGS ...........God Bless Tiny Tim >>