Bank of Upper Canada Token Help Please...

UconnL

Hello...Need a little help please...

I purchased this at a Flea Market Sunday...

It looked interesting, I own some others... They are a bit heavier, about 8 gr. And are in copper.
This one is a White metal and weighs about 7.65 Gr. Non metalic. Strong Strike...

Proof??? Thanks! Larry

1960NYGiants

Charlton does not list any off metal strikes for this token. It is catalogued as PC5A, copper, medal alignment, 7.9g for this date (others up to 8.5).

Dr. Courteau studied these at the turn of the 20th century and listed over 300 varieties for the series. Minted in 1850, 1852, 1854, and 1857 in 1/2 penny and 1 penny denominations at the Royal Mint with some minted at the Heaton mint.

Proofs exist but are very rare.

You could ask the folks over at the CCRS site: www.canadiancoin.com

Is it for sale?

Askari

I hope those greasy fries underneath aren't being used for "toning"!

UconnL

Sweet potato fries... Yummy!
Just a photo... Larry

theboz11

rwyarmch has another example in copper in the thread below. So it was produced multiple years and denominations.

1852 Bank Token.

UconnL

Thank you!

Still trying to find out about this "white metal" issue...

Larry

rwyarmch

Please enter my guess as silvered copper. WM tends to darken on the high points while silvering often wears off on the high points leaving signs of copper.

WM token

UconnL

Thanks... However, there is a small spot where a scratch was made and it shines "silvery" I'm guessing pewter? The medal you are showing is really beautiful!
Larry

rwyarmch

"Dr. Courteau studied these at the turn of the 20th century and listed over 300 varieties for the series. Minted in 1850, 1852, 1854, and 1857 in 1/2 penny and 1 penny denominations at the Royal Mint with some minted at the Heaton mint."

Gene, do you happen to know if Dr. Courteau identified the die charactoristics for proofs within the series?

1960NYGiants

Unfortunately, I don not have access to Dr. Courteau's work. There is a collector at the CCRS site who is an expert on these and has copies of most of Courteau's papers. He stated that off metal strikes were not mentioned in any of the papers. I'll ask about the proofs.

UconnL

Thanks Gene!

1960NYGiants

<< <i>Unfortunately, I don not have access to Dr. Courteau's work. There is a collector at the CCRS site who is an expert on these and has copies of most of Courteau's papers. He stated that off metal strikes were not mentioned in any of the papers. I'll ask about the proofs. >>



Nothing about proofs except "thought to exist".

colonialtokens

Concerning the Breton 720 / Charlton PC-5A.

Doctor Eugene Courteau identified some 319 varieties of the St George Canadian Colonial series.
Of this number, varieties 1-75 pertain to the 720 / PC-5A series.

The listing of the 75 is divided into 5 major groupings according to the Stands of the T and N in TOKEN.

Weak Stands to the T and N in TOKEN............................................................varieties 1-26.
Weak Stand to the T, the N is half struck to the left, fully struck to the right........varieties 27-45.
Weak Stand to the T, full Stand to the N.........................................................varieties 46-56.
Stand of the T is double struck, the Stand to the N is full...................................varieties 57-63.
The Stand to the T and N in TOKEN are complete..............................................varieties 64-75.

The token of this thread is of the first grouping (varieties 1-26).
This grouping is further sub divided according to the Stand if the Leg (not to be confused with the Upright of the same letter) of the K in BANK (reverse).

Weak Stand of the Leg on varieties 1-15.
Full Stand of the Leg on varieties 16-26.

The token in question is of the 1-15 grouping. Of this grouping I can readily eliminate 3, 4, and 6 from the photos provided. Absent better photos, more
detailed information, or personal inspection, I am currently unable to be more definitive. Are there any die-cracks, and if so, from where and to where.
Are the Stand and Serifs of the legend normal.

Doctor Courteau made no mention of Proofs of this series. In Doctor Courteau's work on the New Brunswick tokens, he did mention a proof variety. I am
the owner of one of these in ICCS PF 60.

With the grateful help and assistance two other leading experts in this discipline, I am working on an exhaustive treatise of the St George series. Absent
photos, the PC-5A section is well over 200 pages.


take care,

Doug Carlson

American Numismatic Association Life Member 1175722.
Royal Canadian Numismatic Association Life Member
Numismatic Bibliomania Society Life Member
National Rifle Association Life Member

brg5658

Thanks for the post. I recently picked up an 1857 example in true MS. AS with many of the Canada colonials, they are very hard to find in MS.

Hyperion

WOWIE! Stunner in MS. I'd seen plenty of worn examples around (I have one on my work desk, for instance)...but UNC? GREAT!

colonialtokens

Beautiful Token. The grade is accurate.

Doctor Eugene Courteau identified 48 varieties of the 1857 ONE HALF PENNY series (varieties 159-207 inclusive).

Dr. Courteau divided this grouping into two major listings according to whether the obverse Rosettes contained a dot.

Varieties 159-189 inclusive have no dot within the obverse Rosettes.
Varieties 190-207 inclusive contain a dot within the obverse Rosettes.

The token in question falls into the second grouping, having a dot within the obverse Rosettes.

Doctor Courteau further delineates each grouping according to the dots of the terminal of the Anchor Rope.
The Anchor Rope (to the lower left of the Handle of the Battle Axe) ends with either:

One Dot
One Dot and a small line
A downward pointing Dash
2 small Dots
2 large Dots
2 1/2 Dots
1 medium Dots
3 downward pointing Dots
3 horizontal Dots

The terminal of the Anchor Rope of the token in question ends with 3 downward pointing Dots.

Of the group 2 listing (having Dots within the obverse Rosettes), only varieties 206 and 207 have 3 downward pointing Dots.

Of these, the Man on variety 206 shews a perfect left Foot.
The Man on variety 207 has no left foot.

The Token in question is Courteau variety 206, having an R factor of 2 (on a scale of 1-10).

Note - This variety was rather easy to determine. Other varieties may require ascertaining the lines below the Man's Armpit, the terminal of the outline of the Union Jack and St. Andrew's Cross, the placement of the numeral 7, etal.

brg5658

Dr. Courteau's book on the St. George tokens (as best I can tell) came out in 1934. I wonder why it isn't available in it's entirety on Google books scanned. IT is a scant 32 pages, and copies are basically impossible to find. Any suggestions?

colonialtokens

Doctor Courteau's original booklet on 'The St. George Copper Tokens of the Bank of Upper Canada' has become a
rare and pricy work. Over the past twenty years I have been able to obtain several copies. They were obtained
from George Kolbe and Remy Bourne (Numismatic Book Dealers). Even back then, they went for well over a hundred
dollars (US funds) each. Consider googling ABE books and search under Courteau. Once a year or so you may locate
a copy.

I believe the libraries of the American Numismatic Association and the Royal Canadian Numismatic Association have
lending copies available to members. Years ago, I borrowed a copy for the CNA (before it became the RCNA) and
zeroxed a copy and returned the loaned book. Subsequently I was able to obtain originals.

Send my your mailing address and I will provide you with a zerox of the pages, absent the pages of plate photos.
The photo plates of the booklet are small, dark and do not copy.

Realize that Doctor Courteau died several weeks after the publication of this work and probably never reviewed
the printed product. Doctor Courteau was a great pioneer blazing a trail for future researchers to follow. The
optics and photography of today is far superior to what Dr. Courteau had available.

I found Dr. Courteau's work adequately comprehensive, yet most difficult to digest. Do not despair. I have been
diligently studying the field for nearly twenty years and spent many hours endeavouring to ascertain what Dr.
Courteau was trying to articulate. In a couple of years I plan on providing a user friendly work and update of
Dr. Courteau's work on this subject.

doug carlson

brg5658

<< <i>Send my your mailing address and I will provide you with a zerox of the pages, absent the pages of plate photos. The photo plates of the booklet are small, dark and do not copy. >>



Thanks very much for the offer!!! Unfortunately, I tried to send you a private message but it said that you have set your options to not receive private messages. Please let me know how I can contact you to get you my address! Or, let me know if you change your options to allow PMs. Most appreciated!

-Brandon

colonialtokens

I am new to the site and do not know how to access all the gizmos.

In addition I am computer stupid. my email is dougcarlson@comcast.net

brg5658

<< <i>I am new to the site and do not know how to access all the gizmos.

In addition I am computer stupid. my email is dougcarlson@comcast.net >>



Doug, you are a gentleman and a scholar! I have sent an email your way! Thanks again for such a generous offer and for your expertise.

-Brandon

1960NYGiants

Hi Doug,

Glad to see you posting over here. You are the expert I was referring to in my original post in this thread. Welcome aboard!

To help with your getting messages: click on "profile" in upper right corner, find the line that allows private messages and select the on button. You'll notice a lock icon appear in the upper right corner of your posts.