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Five questions about MS70.
keets
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1. Does anyone know what the ingredients are that make up MS70?
2. At different times I've heard it referred to as a "detergent" with no objection from other members. Is MS70 a detergent??
3. Will MS70 remove contaminants from the surface of a coin without harming the coin itself??
4. If a coin is toned and the tone is part of the coin's surface, will MS70 remove the toning?
5. If MS70 removes the tone, has it removed metal from the surface of the coin??
Thanks in advance.
Al H.
2. At different times I've heard it referred to as a "detergent" with no objection from other members. Is MS70 a detergent??
3. Will MS70 remove contaminants from the surface of a coin without harming the coin itself??
4. If a coin is toned and the tone is part of the coin's surface, will MS70 remove the toning?
5. If MS70 removes the tone, has it removed metal from the surface of the coin??
Thanks in advance.
Al H.
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Comments
MS70 Industrial Strength Coin Brightener, according to the manufacturer, is safe to use on Gold, Silver, Nickel, Copper, Bronze and Brass. It contains no acid.
MS70 does not change the color of your coin, but does remove surface contamination and tarnish. MS70 will allow the natural beauty of the original surface to show as a bright as the day your coin left the mint.
MS70 was designed to be used on mint state or proof coins but does wonders on AU or slightly used coins restoring the brilliant surfaces that remain under tarnish and years of surface contamination that has accumulated on your coins. Surface contamination is PVC, tarnish, fog, oil, dirt, etc.
DIRECTIONS FOR USE
MS70 is not a dip and will not work by dipping your coin. Apply MS70 directly to coin or soak a Q-tip in MS70 to gently apply to coin. Allow a few seconds for MS70 to penetrate the contaminants on the coin then gently "massage" the surface of the coin with Q-Tip which has been soaked in MS70. Thoroughly rinse coin in water.
It's a detergent that will remove contaminants from the surface of a coin without harming the coin itself.
It is not an acid (which is what a "dip" - such as EZ-est - is), so it won't remove toning.
However, an acidic dip does, in fact, remove part of the surface of the coin.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
Surfactant
2) It also contains some small amount of detergent whose chemical composition I don't know, but I'm pretty sure it has no chemical interaction with the metal of the coin. Only the NaOH is active.
3) No. The chemical compounds which form the the toning are changed.
4) The toning is, by definition, part of the coin. It does not rest on the surface, but is part of the surface. To the degree that the chemical compounds which comprise the toning are changed, the refraction of the toning (thin-film interference) will change. The more of the metal has been engaged, the greater the change. This is why heavily toned coins get grayer.
5) It has altered the chemical compound formed by the metal that has previously combined with various "contaminants".
Pretty sure of this, but anyone with more than a semester of college level chemistry(calling TomB, calling TomB) might easily know more. I use it without a Q-tip but sometimes use it (heavily diluted because a little goes long way) as the solution in my ultrasonic. First try is just a dilute solution in a cereal bowl. BTW, rubber gloves are useful. It's not that the coins that get slippery. The lye is eating away the top layers of skin (organic stuff, y'know).
Add a detergent and you have a brew that will strip off (solubilize, once you gently rub the surface a bit or sonicate) organic matter and chemically modify reactive metal surfaces (but probably not gold).
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
i tried to ask the specific questions in that order to work up to the really big question which the Colonel evidentally answered. while MS70 is apparently not an acid it is alkaline at least in part and that can be just as destructive to the metal surface as an acid. if it were strictly a detergent i would expect MS70 only to dissolve compounds "laying" on a coin's surface and thus cause the coin to appear brighter while retaining any color that was present. logically, it can't dissolve the metal, right??
in my brief experience using MS70 i don't find this to be the case. quite to the contrary i find that it will indeed remove the tone from a Silver coin in some instances. not wanting to get involved in the specifics of what is happening on a molecular level(i'll leave that to TomB) i can only surmise that MS70 someone changes the way the light is reflected/refracted as the Colonel stated. here's what happened for me............................i bought a group of Silver Eisenhower Dollars in flip-open cases, 10 coins total, which had the coins resting in holes with the interior of the case lined in that velvety looking material. they were rim-toned to different degrees but all had a film of haze covering the entire coin, unattractive but manageable is what i thought. i first used Acetone with no result so i purchased MS70 and set about to "brighten the coins by removing the haze and leaving the color intact" as i had been led to believe would be the result.
i used a Q-Tip and rolled it over the first coin and had exactly that outcome, the haze dissolved almost instantly and the color remained with a bright coin looking fine after a rinse in distilled water. when i tried the next coin much to my surprise it removed the color entirely!! what a bummer. i picked a third coin and rolled the Q-Tip over the brillint two-thirds of the obverse but didn't have the guts to go for the glory, so i now have a coin which looks artificial-----you can see where i stopped with the MS70 and the haze begins. i had bought the coins for melt at about $5.50 apiece and i sold them the same way about a month ago except for three, the two i tried the MS70 on and one other that has nice color(with the haze still intact).
my line of thinking was twofold, it had to be one or the other:
1. the color i was seeing was a result of the haze and not a part of the coin.
2. MS70 does indeed react with the metal and removed the tone.
given what the Colonel posted and what i expect TomB to post i lean towards answer number two, that the alkaline nature of MS70 is corrosive and wil react with the toned surface of a Silver coin. i'm in the process of changing my camera set-up and what i'll do is take some pictures of the coins i still have, they should illustrate my post above better than the words themselves.
If what passes at first glance for toning is organic, it should come off when acetone or a hydrocarbon solvent is used (it's a question of solubility). You may not have allowed enough contact time. I have a lab, so I sometimes gently boil coins in acetone to get the job done (I certainly do not recommend doing this at home).
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Practice on the cheap stuff to learn and understand how it works.
I have an ASE that has been sitting on edge...on my desk for about 6 months or so. I started to take on a gold tone and I was not a big fan of the way it was looking. I took MS70 to the ASE and it took most of the junk off the coin but some of the toning was left and would not be removed. I then tried Acetone and no more of the toning was removed. So there you go.
After using it on a coin, rinse in hot water for a nice long time to get all of the slimy stuff off.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I can't pretend to explain it, I can only describe it.
I've seen it do horrible things to copper coins. Be very careful using it on copper.
Mark
Discover all unpredictable errors before they occur.
The fella who makes and sells MS 70 has a PHD in Chemistry., and was a long time coin dealer on the wholesale level.
He has an industrial cleaning supply business. . I Have spoken with him on more then several occassions and he is a great human being.
He had a wholesale coin shop in the back of his industrial building. He is though, no longer in the coin business and He keeps a low profile. He used to do quite a wholesale business with many of the dealers you know and deal with. I've seen the stuff going out for shipment by the gallons. I always thought that much might be going to NCS but that was just my WAG. I used to buy my small bottles from him and they lasted a long time.
I use nitile gloves when using it as it will strip the oil out of your fingers. Follow his instructions and it will work great.
I have never been able to find an MSDS on it.
Krueger
My conclusion is that do to the unpredictable nature of the stuff, I wouldn't use it on anthing that has nice toning.
One thing I did notice is that the silver almost seems unaturally bright after treatment.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I just used this 2 days ago on a very nice but very "clouded" 1921 Morgan dollar. I wanted to see what was under the crap. What came out was a near MS66 Morgan with every bit of mint luster still intact. The coin was already "white" but it is a blast-white blazer now! It will be a shame to send this one to the smelter! But it appears most Morgans are worth little more than melt.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Regarding MS-70, I tried to lighten the toning on a very darkly-toned Morgan from a farm auction, and it removed about 1/2 of the toning, leaving a coin that does have some color, but it may have taken some luster with it and the toning isn't full rainbow. So, the theory that it will lighten toning is probably correct, just not totally what you might hope for.
I knew it would happen.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>.......
My conclusion is that do to the unpredictable nature of the stuff, I wouldn't use it on anthing that has nice toning.
One thing I did notice is that the silver almost seems unaturally bright after treatment. >>
The variable is not the MS70. It's the coin. The "start with cheap coins" is the only way to gauge its potential in various levels of what Ricko rightly calls corrosion. Actually applicable for any any technique with any action relating to coins. Time is another variable with which to experiment.
The unnaturally bright effect is definitely there for coins already white or close to it. From my experience it seems our hosts don't mind.
It's generally true (YMMV), actually in my experience 99+%, that you can dip a coin first and then use MS70, but I have can recall very rarely having a good experience using dip after MS70. I'm convinced this is because the NaOH has already combined with the molecules and stripped the surfaces of anything that might combine with the acidic dip.
It may not be worthwhile for some, but you can buy an ultrasonic machine on the web for as little as $40. Mine cost $70. NEVER put your hands in any ultrasonic. Use that little tray or just turn it off. Ultrasonics are ideal for crud, dirt, PVC, etc. Great with acetone or even hand soap (saw the baby soap comment and a great suggestion I will use soon) which has many fewer chemicals active than dishwash or laundry detergents. With the ultrasonic you'll get much faster results.
Diluted dip also gets good results without "burning" the coin as quickly, but you must titrate your dip and limit the time you leave the coin in the solution.
That chunky thick green crud that many assume (as do I) is massive PVC buildup often comes off. Unsuccesful experiences with non-corrosive techniques are by definition not a problem. I always use acetone and a Q-Tip before the immersion because of my gradual incremental approach, then the ultrasonic. Remember that it is very likely that underneath the very deepest level of green cruddy PVC is a spot which is to some degree ED. Minor areas will not cause you problems with grading. Obviously they are less likely to be any problem at all when close to the rims, where I see the crud most often.
Ultrasonics (NO ACID) work less well on the carbon spots most likely found on copper responding poorly, with non-steam press products
products much more problemmatic. I find the results increasingly poor as the the production date goes back in time (also true in my experience with silver in situations like dipping). Per carbon spots remember that is it generally true that the larger the spot the greater the probabibilty there will be the shiny area beneath the spot. Not corrosion, just an area of the coin mechanically shaken loose. True verdigris is corrosive. On copper you get a greater difference between the color of the surface and the brightness of raw untoned metal below.
Gosh, I hope this doesn't sound like coin doctoring. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
More likely, there may be a residual monolayer of an MS70 component (that doesn't simply rinse off) on the coin's surface---this would impede access to the surface by an acidic dip.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Carbon spots most likely found on copper often respond poorly, with non-steam press issues very problemmatic. I find the results increasingly poor as the the production date goes back in time (also true in my experience with silver in situations like dipping). Per carbon spots remember that is it generally true that the larger the spot the greater will be the shiny area beneath the spot. >>
the carbon doodie on lincolnc chin, was a deep cameo coin, the spot was right on the frost, and did not affect the frost, but however
it did cause dark red streaks on the reverse over a period of 2-3 weeks
mind you I had this in full strength ms70 for 27 hours
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>I believe it will etch the surfaces of proof coins.....from my experiences using the stuff.
Leo >>
full strength it did not etch a copper proof
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>
It may not be worthwhile for some, but you can buy an ultrasonic machine on the web for as little as $40. Mine cost $70. NEVER put your hands in any ultrasonic. Use that little tray or just turn it off. Ultrasonics are ideal for crud, dirt, PVC, etc. Great with acetone or even hand soap (saw the baby soap comment and a great suggestion I will use soon) which has many fewer chemicals active than dishwash or laundry detergents. With the ultrasonic you'll get much faster results.
>>
Colonel, are you talking about something like this, or something more powerful?
http://www.amazon.com/CD-2800-Ultrasonic-Jewelry-Eyeglass-Cleaner/dp/B001DKDAVW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1303326403&sr=8-2
Thanks,
Mark
Discover all unpredictable errors before they occur.
<< <i>Quite to the contrary i find that it will indeed remove the tone from a Silver coin in some instances.
When i tried the next coin much to my surprise it removed the color entirely!! what a bummer. >>
Al?
Could it be possible that the toning which was removed was a chemically artificial toning?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>
It may not be worthwhile for some, but you can buy an ultrasonic machine on the web for as little as $40. Mine cost $70. NEVER put your hands in any ultrasonic. Use that little tray or just turn it off. Ultrasonics are ideal for crud, dirt, PVC, etc. Great with acetone or even hand soap (saw the baby soap comment and a great suggestion I will use soon) which has many fewer chemicals active than dishwash or laundry detergents. With the ultrasonic you'll get much faster results.
>>
Colonel, are you talking about something like this, or something more powerful?
http://www.amazon.com/CD-2800-Ultrasonic-Jewelry-Eyeglass-Cleaner/dp/B001DKDAVW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1303326403&sr=8-2
Thanks,
Mark >>
That's not what I have, but might be fine. I have a "Digital Ultrasonic Cleaner GB-928" LOL, made in China by people making 37c per hour an yet it functions well. I Have no idea what the company name is unless it's "Digital Ultrasonic Cleaner" as everything else on the box is in Chinese. It is rated at 42,000 Hz frequency. Bought it about 6 months ago when my old one gave up the ghost after about 6 years.
Per shorecoll's concern about acetone and electricity I guess it could be an issue, though I've never heard of an actual incident. I've got to assume that boiling acetone creates a much greater risk, but I'm assuming some hood and venting capability protected the chemist-user from inhalation. Gas flame is totally out of the question, but what is the risk with an electric heat source?
I really don't like to deal with hypotheticals like this. Foolish perhaps, but I work with practical solutions (pun intended) and only a few "real" coins have been ruined by my experiments, all very early in my experiments and before I got wise and used the scientific method. Then I ruined a few more. The last 20 years have been very much trouble-free.
sure, anything is possible, but if you actually read my posts about the coins and some of the replies by others you'd understand that the results are apparently typical.