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What is the difference?

CaptMorganCaptMorgan Posts: 145
in Precious Metals
What is the legal difference regarding the 1964D Peace Dollar recently recreated and the Liberty Dollar?
Why is one ok, and the other not?

Comments

  • DrBusterDrBuster Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭✭✭
    One was situationally used for actual commerce??
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,824 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Both inhabit different gray areas of the law.

    One is a real coin that's been altered to look like a coin that was never issued and therefore, the argument is that it cannot be considered a counterfeit.

    The other is a medallion that was issued to prove a point about how our money has become debased. The arguments were that the Norfed stuff was made to appear as US currency and was intended to be used to defraud people who might have thought that it was real US currency. Both arguments that were used to convict are full of bull. The Norfed pieces are nicely done, but they don't resemble US coinage - they look much nicer and would be hard to confuse with any circulating US coins. They weren't being used to defraud - the marketing strategy was widely publicized and was clearly intended to implement a sound basis for commerce based on precious metals instead of fiat currency - not to defraud.

    The prosecution and conviction that just took place had little to do with counterfeiting, and alot more to do with politics. If the government allows precious metals to be used as currency, the physical limitations of a finite supply of currency would force accountability into the financial system and into the political process. That simply cannot happen or political careers would be ruined en mass.

    The medallions had/have more real value than any currently circulating US coinage. The government looks like fools in this case, especially when they allow ebay to continue with the flood of Chinese counterfeits coming into this country with the real intent to defraud on a massive scale.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • RGJohnRGJohn Posts: 402
    Politics is the difference. Norfed is considered to be closely associated with political groups currently out of favor. If they could somehow wrap it in a biblical cover, they'd probably be immune as some of these other 'religious' (sic) whackos seem to be.
    Many, many perfect transactions with other members. Ask please.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,118 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Norfed pieces were being touted as an alternate form of "money." The government claims a monopoly on the right to issue "money" in this country.
    .
    The legality of the Carr 1964-D Peace Dollars has, apperently, never been formally ruled upon by the Secret Service or any other government agency. It may be that they have not yet noticed them, it may be that they have noticed them and have not yet decided what to do about them, or it may be that they have noticed them and have decided to ignore them and hope they go away. Nobody knows.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • gsa1fangsa1fan Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The Norfed pieces were being touted as an alternate form of "money." The government claims a monopoly on the right to issue "money" in this country.
    .
    The legality of the Carr 1964-D Peace Dollars has, apperently, never been formally ruled upon by the Secret Service or any other government agency. It may be that they have not yet noticed them, it may be that they have noticed them and have not yet decided what to do about them, or it may be that they have noticed them and have decided to ignore them and hope they go away. Nobody knows. >>



    Thanks for this reply, CaptHenway!image Personally I have been upset of the defacing of a real coin to make another one.
    Avid collector of GSA's.
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,824 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The legality of the Carr 1964-D Peace Dollars has, apperently, never been formally ruled upon by the Secret Service or any other government agency. It may be that they have not yet noticed them, it may be that they have noticed them and have not yet decided what to do about them, or it may be that they have noticed them and have decided to ignore them and hope they go away. Nobody knows.

    I speculated on some of the Carr pieces because I remember the buzz that was created in 1964 when it looked like there was a good possibility that we'd get some brand-new silver dollars. That was kind of exciting for me at the time. DC's creations are truly a gray area and the government might decide to test his legal defense arguements someday.

    After seeing what happened in the Norfed case, I really don't like what I'm seeing. Daniel is a big boy and I'm sure that he knows what he is doing, but the Norfed case does provoke some serious questions about how far the government is willing to go in order to impose their way of doing business. Their brand of justice appears **NOT** to be just, when all of the financial shenanigans by large banking institutions that damage our viability as a country have been allowed to go unresolved while they pick on a guy who is only trying to make a point about sound currency.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,941 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I believe at least some of the Norfed problem was the issuance of paper "certificates" that would compete with paper currency. That and the fact that NotHaus had intentionally introduced his coinage/currency into circulation competing against federal reserve notes.

    Recall that Carr's '64 peace dollars are struck on actual peace dollars. They are federally issued, government minted united states coins. They've just been heavily graffiti'd. The government would have a difficult time prosecuting someone when they hadn't privately issued the coins to compete with us currency, because they are in fact us currency.
    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,113 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Personally I have been upset of the defacing of a real coin to make another one. >>



    Dan struck his coins over lightly circulated common date Peace dollars that would have been destined for the melting pot.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,118 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Personally I have been upset of the defacing of a real coin to make another one. >>



    Dan struck his coins over lightly circulated common date Peace dollars that would have been destined for the melting pot. >>



    Based on what I have been hearing about coin shop retail sales, I don't think anybody is melting lightly circulated silver dollars these days.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • gsa1fangsa1fan Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Personally I have been upset of the defacing of a real coin to make another one. >>



    Dan struck his coins over lightly circulated common date Peace dollars that would have been destined for the melting pot. >>



    When something is "altered" to deceive seems like counterfeiting to me. JMHO if you like them that's fine with me.

    I just choose not toimage
    Avid collector of GSA's.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,113 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Personally I have been upset of the defacing of a real coin to make another one. >>



    Dan struck his coins over lightly circulated common date Peace dollars that would have been destined for the melting pot. >>



    Based on what I have been hearing about coin shop retail sales, I don't think anybody is melting lightly circulated silver dollars these days. >>



    What are dealers paying for common date circulated silver dollars these days? Melt is currently over $30.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,118 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Personally I have been upset of the defacing of a real coin to make another one. >>



    Dan struck his coins over lightly circulated common date Peace dollars that would have been destined for the melting pot. >>



    Based on what I have been hearing about coin shop retail sales, I don't think anybody is melting lightly circulated silver dollars these days. >>



    What are dealers paying for common date circulated silver dollars these days? Melt is currently over $30. >>



    Checked with a dealer I know, and right now with melt very close to $30.50 he is paying $27 to $28 per for generic dollars depending on quantity and selling them all at $32-33 per coin, so obviously he is not melting them, and unless Joe Sixpack has many thousands of them to amortize the refining costs over he isn't melting them either, so, who is melting them, other than the culls?
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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