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1909-S VDB. Real or not? PCGS opinion REVEALED IN 1ST POST
lkeigwin
Posts: 16,893 ✭✭✭✭✭
Wow...close voting. Just about 50/50. And a handful of "I just can't decide".
This coin was part of an estate I bought early this year. The deceased's Lincoln album was complete, though most of the tougher coins were VG-F
and many were wiped. I submitted four coins to PCGS for grading and authenticating. The below 1909-S VDB, a 1909-S, a 1914-D and a 1931-S.
The 1909-S and 1931-S graded XF. The 1914-D "questionable authenticity" (not a big surprise) and the 1909-S VDB was returned..."No Decision/Refund".
Gawd, I hate that! No decision? You guys probably do too. But obviously PCGS had issues. Not sure it was fake, not sure it was real.
So I guess the real winners are the anonymous voters who said "not sure". LOL.
What would you do next, if you were me? See below.
Lance.
(Larry L., you cheated. No psychology allowed.)
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.
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This is taking WAY too long!
This coin was part of an estate I bought early this year. The deceased's Lincoln album was complete, though most of the tougher coins were VG-F
and many were wiped. I submitted four coins to PCGS for grading and authenticating. The below 1909-S VDB, a 1909-S, a 1914-D and a 1931-S.
The 1909-S and 1931-S graded XF. The 1914-D "questionable authenticity" (not a big surprise) and the 1909-S VDB was returned..."No Decision/Refund".
Gawd, I hate that! No decision? You guys probably do too. But obviously PCGS had issues. Not sure it was fake, not sure it was real.
So I guess the real winners are the anonymous voters who said "not sure". LOL.
What would you do next, if you were me? See below.
Lance.
(Larry L., you cheated. No psychology allowed.)
.
.
.
This is taking WAY too long!
Coin Photography Services / Everyman Registry set / BHNC #213
0
Comments
Lance.
..it's gonna take me a while to see the whole coin.
Fake!
In some ways it looks ok like the angle on the B and the dot placement but the lower serif looks too big and the mintmark looks a bit less spindly and the position looks slightly too far west (but only a hair!) to match the most similar die....
So when in doubt I say fake, better safe than sorry.
Check out the mintmark comparison.
bob
<< <i>All 1909-S VDBs have a die chip on the inside of the top loop of the S. No chip, no real. >>
If there are multiple obv. dies, all of them have it, and the S is punched post hubbing, wouldn't it be a defect in the punch as opposed to a chip off the ol' die?
just curious.
<< <i>
<< <i>All 1909-S VDBs have a die chip on the inside of the top loop of the S. No chip, no real. >>
If there are multiple obv. dies, all of them have it, and the S is punched post hubbing, wouldn't it be a defect in the punch as opposed to a chip off the ol' die?
just curious. >>
that is a wicked good question
I CALL QUESTION OF THE DAY! DING DING DING
see op for your prize
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
My reasons:
1. Overall wear and condition of the coin, date, mintmark, and 'V.D.B.' are consistent.
2. The nicks and dings in the coin, especially near the mintmark, slightly obscure some of the die indicators (mintmark diechip) but the positioning, tilt, and structure of the mintmark seem consistent with Die Pair #2 (Counterfeit Detection Reprint from the Numismatist, 1988, p.42). Nothing dramatically seems out of place. random hits and wear would account for any micro-difference.
3. The 'V.D.B.' shows NO difference from authentic in any degree. All letters, spacing, dots, and letter angles/tilts are spot on.
4. The woodgraining on the coin is consistent, appears to pass through and over the mintmark, and is indicative of an authentic coin (ibid. p. 44).
5. The overall wear on the coin is similar through date. mintmark, and 'V.D.B.' and represents a 35/40 coin.
Initially, the stain to the south of the mintmark worried me, but overall evaluation of the coin shows several corrosion/stains that are consistent and not in suspect areas.
I believe you have the real deal.
Drunner
(Doily 1909-S 'V.D.B.s' have the same allure as Sigourney Weaver in 'Aliens' . . . sexy, genuine, and armed to the teeth.)
edited for the spelling of 'stain' . . . you'd think I could spell a monosyllabic word. Must be the Single Malt . . . . . . .
Lincoln set Colorless Set
Lance.
<< <i>Odd that the poll voting is inconsistent with posting sentiment...
Lance. >>
With 56 votes and 23 posts... there might be a little inconsistency!
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
EDIT TO ADD....now that I've read the initial question, I assume since you are asking, it was sent back probablly "questionable authenticity"....but, looks real to me, if its fake it is a damn good one.
Here is a 64 and a 40 with the same mintmark alignment
LINK 64PCGS
LINK 40PCGS
blackman.jake@gmail.com
704-719-6866
<< <i>It's real. Send it in....
Here is a 64 and a 40 with the same mintmark alignment >>
It has been to PCGS and back already.
Here are snippets from those links, along with the coin in question.
Lance.
<< <i>See also
The image for Die 2 is not the correct photo. It appears to be a genuine 1909-S, not a 1909-S VDB.
The mintmark is too far to the right for Die 2.
The OP coin is genuine, Die 3.
<< <i>It has been to PCGS and back already. >>
What did PCGS say?
<< <i>
<< <i>It has been to PCGS and back already. >>
What did PCGS say? >>
That will be revealed. Just looking to give everyone a chance to guess.
Lance.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It has been to PCGS and back already. >>
What did PCGS say? >>
That will be revealed. Just looking to give everyone a chance to guess.
Lance. >>
With the world's population nearing 7 billion... it's going to be quite the wait!
I'll go with added S.....
Wheres Tom D, he'll know....
LM-ANA3242-CSNS308-MSNS226-ICTA
Forget the serifs. Look at the shape of the S.
Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>It's real. Send it in....
Here is a 64 and a 40 with the same mintmark alignment
I think those are two different dies? The mintmark on the bottom one is not level with the bottom of the 9's.
Lincoln set Colorless Set
<< <i>genuine 1909-s added vdb >>
that's what I'm thinking...
...so, lance. what do the people win that were closest to being right?
<< <i>...so, lance. what do the people win that were closest to being right?
Fake or real... how close do you have to get? After the first two guesses, no one else gets to play!
<< <i>
<< <i>...so, lance. what do the people win that were closest to being right?
Fake or real... how close do you have to get? After the first two guesses, no one else gets to play!
...
Any more guesses? I love the variety of answers.
Hard to turn this into a giveaway with only three answers to choose from. But 5,000 posts is coming up soon.
Lance.
<< <i>I'll reveal PCGS's decision tonight 6PM PDT.
Any more guesses? I love the variety of answers.
Hard to turn this into a giveaway with only three answers to choose from. But 5,000 posts is coming up soon.
Lance. >>
You're considering don't know as an answer... it appears everyone here would have won with that answer!
Drunner
(Doilies don't have added Mintmarks)
The reverse is a genuine 1909 VDB. The obverse is a late die state - note the eroded flow lines and the die chip in the lower half of the "S" in TRUST.
If obverse 1 was used with and without the VDB reverse, and since it is a late die state, then this would have to be one of the later 1909-S VDB obverse 1 coins produced, or two different coins were halved together. I'd need to see pictures of the edge to determine that.
<< <i>The obverse is a genuine 1909-S (obverse #1). The mint mark looks a little strange because is was somewhat mashed (post-mint damage) after striking.
The reverse is a genuine 1909 VDB. The obverse is a late die state - note the eroded flow lines and the die chip in the lower half of the "S" in TRUST.
If obverse 1 was used with and without the VDB reverse, and since it is a late die state, then this would have to be one of the later 1909-S VDB obverse 1 coins produced, or two different coins were halved together. I'd need to see pictures of the edge to determine that. >>
very interesting, could be. I recall a Buffalo nickel thread with the same "2 piece" type thing in a fake PCGS slab.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
WS
...so i guess we have 3 more hours to go. i'm in the east and it's 6PM.
...i'll be asleep when he posts, so i'll find out tomorrow. (i'm an old stinker and need some sleep)
Drunner
(Time to get a Doily)