BEWARE of Paypal Policy

Zohar

So here goes:

I sold an item on Ebay (I do once in a blue moon when upgrading materials) to a foreign buyer. When discussing shipping options, they asked for registered, uninsured, mail to keep cost at a reasonable level. A month later, a paypal claim is opened by buyer indicating he has not received item.

Called paypal and their position is that paypal policy supersedes any agreement between buyer/seller, therefore I will need to bear the cost (refund to buyer).

What this means is that paypal is not to be used unless you have very secure (and expensive) shipping.

FilthyBroke

Sorry to hear this. I worry when sending stuff overseas, because of these stories.

I wonder if talking to a different PayPal rep would produce a different response? Just a thought...

Zohar

Apparently buyer protection is absolute even if he doesnt like the item sent.

I see room for a class action against Ebay given that they own paypal and force people to use it for payment while protecting the buyer and not seller even though terms and risks were communicated in the ebay transaction while the superseding language is in small lettering on the paypal side.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>What this means is that paypal is not to be used unless you have very secure (and expensive) shipping. >>

PayPal works okay if you insure the shipment.

<< <i>I wonder if talking to a different PayPal rep would produce a different response? >>

Not likely.

Zohar

So basically paypal doesnt work for foreign sales unless the insurance (expensive) justifies it.

FilthyBroke

It's been a while since I sent overseas through PayPal, but I do seem to remember that they required a certain method of shipping/insuring the package. I do remember changing my auction requirements to "U.S. only" after a few of the shipping charges turned out to be $30 or more. It's hard to figure where they get some of those policies from. You said that you sent registered, was it signature?

I sure hope it wasn't a large sum of money that they refunded. Wish I could be of more help.

Zohar

Registered which cost $12. The guy didnt want to spend more for insurance. Online it shows as left the US (shipped) as it allows tracking.

JamesMurray

I wondered about it being registered/signature too FB , i had to change my settings as well to US only but even that has gotten weird. Apparantly ..no.. , factually the USPS has split the 50 states into 5 different regions.It will cost me more to ship to Texas as in the last instance than it would to ship to say Virginia.When i asked about it the reply i got from the USPS guy was" be glad your not shipping it to California" so now i don't do heavier items anymore either.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>I see room for a class action against Ebay given that they own paypal and force people to use it for payment... >>

You aren't required to use PayPal. You can use another online merchant cc processor if you want.

<< <i>...while protecting the buyer and not seller >>

There is protection for the seller, if you follow PayPal's policies.

<< <i>even though terms and risks were communicated in the ebay transaction while the superseding language is in small lettering on the paypal side. >>

Unfortunately, if you do that, it screws up any protection you might have through PayPal.

FilthyBroke

I was just reading (ebay forums) where PayPal wouldn't side with a seller using USPS on a claim on overseas shipping, due to lack of sig. requirements by the local posts. Only private companies would see the package completely through to the door of the buyer. Not that this helps Zohar in this case, but I found that interesting.


JamesMurray - Yep, the USPS has been charging by distance for a couple of years now, some new(ish) policy I think. It may be best to use the shipping calculator on Ebay auctions to ensure no surprises when you go to pay for shipping.

Zohar

Not sure you understand the issue:

<< I see room for a class action against Ebay given that they own paypal and force people to use it for payment... >>

THEY SHOULD HIGHLIGHT THAT THE PAYPAL TERMS SUPERSEDE EBAY. ESPECIALLY AS THEY OWN PAYPAL.

<< ...while protecting the buyer and not seller >>

AS WRITTERN THIS WAS A FOREIGN BUYER WHO DID NOT WISH TO PURCHASE INSURANCE, JUST REGISTERED. THAT WAS THE CONTRACT WHICH IS DOCUMENTED. PAYPAL IS IGNORING IT GRANTING BUYER BROADER PROTECTION THAT AGREED.

<< even though terms and risks were communicated in the ebay transaction while the superseding language is in small lettering on the paypal side. >>

TRANSACTION IS DONE AT EBAY LEVEL. IF YOU ARE MOVING MONEY STANDALONE VIA PAYPAL (OUTSIDE OF EBAY) THESE PROTECTIVE PROVISIONS SHOULD APPLY

JamesMurray

I guess so FB , it's a shame ebay has went the way it has , it took me a long time to become a trusted seller and a powerseller but to what end ? It's costing too much and is nerve wracking keeping 100% feedback.
Last week i had to let the item i sent to texas stay with the buyer gratis and refund her because she wasn't happy.It cost me more to ship than she had paid and she wanted me to pay return shipping.
It's ok saying she was in the wrong , we all know that , but you can bet your boots i was getting negged if i didnt play ball.

Zohar

I am mostly a buyer not a seller on ebay so in no way aligned with sellers vs. buyers.

The only point in this thread is to make sure all sellers are aware that agreed terms on ebay are IRRELEVANT if things go wrong. Paypal's policies are pro-buyer.

JamesMurray

<< <i>I am mostly a buyer not a seller on ebay so in no way aligned with sellers vs. buyers.

The only point in this thread is to make sure all sellers are aware that agreed terms on ebay are IRRELEVANT if things go wrong. Paypal's policies are pro-buyer. >>



It's been that way since the feedback policy changed giving buyers an upperhand.There are buyers who purposely make a tidy profit off sellers who are not aware.

FilthyBroke

One last thought on this - Have you tried to go through Ebay with this issue? Maybe they'll be of more help, I'd give 'em a call maybe as a last resort, couldn't hurt.

I'm interested in how this comes out, and I bet many others here will be, too. Sellers do need some protection when shipping overseas, and can't be left at the mercy of a buyer's honesty.

WWW

This example and other unilateral decisions made by eBay/PayPal have forced me to give up eBay as a seller.

Zohar

FB - Ebay drove me to paypal saying the case was opened there and they have no way of helping me. When convenient they operate separately.

FilthyBroke

<< <i>FB - Ebay drove me to paypal saying the case was opened there and they have no way of helping me. When convenient they operate separately. >>



Well, that stinks. But it it good info for those of us selling on Ebay. Thanks for bringing this issue up here for us.

Hussulo

Paypal's policies are pro-buyer.

Agreed. If you are going to sell low value coins on ebay, you either have to charge for expensive shipping, which will deter bidders, eat some of the shipping costs yourself or send it untracked/ insured at your own risk and hope the buyer doesn't file a claim as you are out of a coin and the money.

I suppose the same goes for more expensive coins but buyers are willing to spend more to guarantee safe shipping or in my case I price postage at below the actual cost and make a little loss on the postage but hope that the item sells for more, I get peace of mind and perhaps a better star rating.

Ebay PayPal call the shots and as a seller you have to roll the dice and jump through the hoops.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>Not sure you understand the issue >>

I understand the issue. PayPal requires those who use their service to follow their policies. This results in a less than optimum outcome when one doesn't follow those policies. Sorry you had to find this out the hard way.

Zohar

Sorry - you are assuming that people who deal through Ebay make the distinction between ebay and paypal and their respective terms. I wouldn't bet on that at all as Ebay owns paypal and pushes that product as part of its platform.

Ebay takes you right to paypal and that is where the confusion is especially for those that are not professional sellers.

It's like buying an airplane ticket with an assigned seat (build into the ticket purchase( and at check-in learning that airport security measures demand that seats are only assigned at the airport (airport policy)

JamesMurray

<< <i>

<< <i>Not sure you understand the issue >>

I understand the issue. PayPal requires those who use their service to follow their policies. This results in a less than optimum outcome when one doesn't follow those policies. Sorry you had to find this out the hard way. >>



That isn't entirely true Mr P , having used ebay and ebid who both utilise paypal one will find items that are taboo on ebid according to paypals policies and not allowed on ebay.
If a taboo item slips through the ebay net Paypal catches it and cancels the transaction , not so with ebid.It's one rule for ebay and another for ebid.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>Sorry - you are assuming that people who deal through Ebay make the distinction between ebay and paypal and their respective terms. >>

I'm not assuming that at all. The problem occurs because the people who don't make that distinction are apparently not reading what they're agreeing to when they use PayPal. Whether or not I (or anyone else) agrees with PayPal's poilicies is irrelevant- all that matters in the event of a dispute is what those policies are.

Zohar

I am not arguing the fine print, I am arguing the lack of clarity/misleading for the lay person. Even the small print needs to be made visible as it is with other financial instruments. Most people do not make the distinction and should not be expected to especially when these are offered as a blended product Ebay/Paypal.

No need to discuss further as we are clearly looking at this from different angles.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>Even the small print needs to be made visible as it is with other financial instruments. >>

PayPal has a link to this:

11. Protection for Sellers.

right near the top of the User Agreement. It's not like they're hiding it.

<< <i>Most people do not make the distinction and should not be expected to especially when these are offered as a blended product Ebay/Paypal. >>

I'm not sure what you mean by "blended product", but each of those entities (eBay and PayPal) have separate sign-up processes. I would think that if one was considering registering at one ot the other websites (or both, for that matter), one might want to read what they're agreeing to by signing up. But then, that's just me.

OzzyAndy

The big issue for me is that Australia Post (and a lot of other posts I believe) have in their policies that they don't insure coins or bullion. So I often just get packages registered and 'self insure' - put aside how much insurance would have cost me in the event I may be out of pocket. Good idea in concept, but in reality I havn't saved much.

On the topic, I'm currently almost at dispute level with one such item. I sent coins registered and buyer claims he hasn't seen them. The tracking shows that they have been delivered and he's signed for them (although anyone theoretically could have). He claims he hasn't seen them. Coins are worth a lot more than I would get back for registered post. Obviously not my fault (except for not having insurance) and seller understands that but if it escallates to a dispute I am wondering how ebay/paypal will rule?

Zohar

It's good that they have a supporter. I guess we need to agree to disagree.

Blended product is having Ebay who owns paypal push the payment mechanism into all their deals as priority. For me, agreeing on shipping tier and fee on the ebay side is the deal. I never thought that these 2 are stand alone and that paypal terms supersede agreed transaction terms.

You are way more thorough which has clearly benefitted you.

Zohar

OzzyAndy - you may be better off as the delivered tracking status is in your favor. Mine still shows it in transit and regardless of what has been agreed paypal is saying that if it is not delivered (even though sent uninsured) I am on the hook for it.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>Obviously not my fault (except for not having insurance) and seller understands that but if it escallates to a dispute I am wondering how ebay/paypal will rule? >>

If you don't have online confirmation of delivery (signature included if it's $250), PayPal will almost certainly rule against you.

International shipping and PayPal do not work well together. I get it. Bottom line- either you do the best you can and accept the occasional less than optimum outcome, or you don't ship internationally.

jt88

<< <i>Registered which cost $12. The guy didnt want to spend more for insurance. Online it shows as left the US (shipped) as it allows tracking. >>



You can get a detailed tracking info from USPS since it is registered then show that to paypal ask for seller protection.

jt88

<< <i>OzzyAndy - you may be better off as the delivered tracking status is in your favor. Mine still shows it in transit and regardless of what has been agreed paypal is saying that if it is not delivered (even though sent uninsured) I am on the hook for it. >>



No. If you can get the tracking info from USPS showed it was delivered then you would be OK. If it showed it was not delivered due the post office fault then filed a seller protection claim. eba/paypal should take care of it. They did that for me for a $400 coin.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>You can get a detailed tracking info from USPS since it is registered then show that to paypal ask for seller protection. >>

You can try, but PayPal doesn't have to accept it if they don't want to.

You guys really should read PayPal's User Agreement. Here's what it says you need in order to be covered under their seller protection policy:

"Proof of Delivery" is online documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:

•The date the item is delivered.
•The recipient’s address, showing at least the city/state or zip code (or international equivalent).

Note: ONLINE DOCUMENTATION is required.

Not trying to give anyone a hard time, but if you don't follow their rules, you're almost certainly going to end up frustrated when things don't go as planned.

jt88

<< <i>

<< <i>You can get a detailed tracking info from USPS since it is registered then show that to paypal ask for seller protection. >>

You can try, but PayPal doesn't have to accept it if they don't want to.

You guys really should read PayPal's User Agreement. Here's what it says you need in order to be covered under their seller protection policy:

"Proof of Delivery" is online documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:

•The date the item is delivered.
•The recipient’s address, showing at least the city/state or zip code (or international equivalent).

Note: ONLINE DOCUMENTATION is required.

Not trying to give anyone a hard time, but if you don't follow their rules, you're almost certainly going to end up frustrated when things don't go as planned. >>



USPS will give you the onlince documentation or email you which paypal sould consider as ONLINE DOCUMENTATION.

SaorAlba

Chances are that the item will show up - unless you sent it to Italy or Russia. Registered mail can take very very slow paths sometimes. I get some stuff from Finland or Netherlands in literally two days from door to door, but sometimes Britain and Canada can take up to six weeks. It is the same in shipping stuff overseas from the USA, some countries get the stuff to the recipient very quickly, some others like Ukraine not at all. I spent a decent amount of dosh to send a package to Ukraine late in December, and well it never got to our family there. Now I have to find a courier to hand carry stuff over and then back to the USA unless I am in Ukraine.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>USPS will give you the onlince documentation or email you which paypal sould consider as ONLINE DOCUMENTATION. >>

It doesn't matter what *you* think PayPal should consider- all that matters is what PayPal considers. I'm here to tell you- when you have a PayPal claim filed against you, PayPal asks for the tracking number of the shipment. If you don't have one (or it doesn't show as "delivered"), you're out of luck.

Maybe if you plead hard enough, they'll take your word for it- who knows? Anything's possible, I suppose...

Zohar

So to conclude - do not use paypal in conjunction with Ebay for international deals. Get wires, cash etc. and stick with the Ebay terms agreed.

Alternatively pile up registered/insurance shipping costs to be borne by buyer.

Simple.

jt88

<< <i>

<< <i>USPS will give you the onlince documentation or email you which paypal sould consider as ONLINE DOCUMENTATION. >>

It doesn't matter what *you* think PayPal should consider- all that matters is what PayPal considers. I'm here to tell you- when you have a PayPal claim filed against you, PayPal asks for the tracking number of the shipment. If you don't have one (or it doesn't show as "delivered"), you're out of luck.

Maybe if you plead hard enough, they'll take your word for it- who knows? Anything's possible, I suppose... >>



He has the tracking number. All the registered mails have tracking number. Has you ever mail registered mail before? All he needs to do is contact USPS asks USPS to trace the package. They will do it. Well, If he still doesn't get it then nothing we can help. Time to move on.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>He has the tracking number. >>

I know.

<< <i>All the registered mails have tracking number. >>

I know.

<< <i>Has you ever mail registered mail before? >>

Probably 2 or 3 hundred. Maybe more.

<< <i>All he needs to do is contact USPS asks USPS to trace the package. They will do it. >>

I know.

But USPS registered mail delivery confirmation is not available online for international shipments. Which is what PayPal requires.