How To Spot Resealed Wax?

e64mtd

Can anyone provide information on how to spot resealed wax? Hoping to pick up some good tips and perhaps help prevent others from buying resealed product. Thanks in advance.

ThoseBackPages

shopping anywhere but at www.bbcexchange.com is the best way to buy resealed wax

Toro

You dont have to, just buy from a reputable dealer or a PSA graded pack. Otherwise, it's too hard to spot from a scan if it isn't blatantly obvious (loose, loose pack). Lastly, apparently GAI packs with serial numbers that start with 102 are apparently questionable.

fattymacs

Buy some legit wax and rip it. A fake pack (I've bought 3 so far) is pretty easy to spot once you know what the good stuff looks like. It's like a counterfeit T card, once you've held the real deal, the fakes are like sore thumbs.

e64mtd

I'm not really interested in who's a legitimate seller or how to spot problems in a scan. I am wondering how to identify problems with wax packs while in hand. Anyone here have insight on this? I have bought resealed material before and realized it was obviously bad wax. The person had heated the seals on the back of the packs to the point where the wax from the pack had entirely bled through to the first card in the pack. Other than that, the packs were tight with good corner folds. When I questioned the seller, he took back the packs with hesitation and refunded my money immediately.

jay0791

I believe a book bt the pack expert..mark murphy goes into all that. He explained how they are made and what to look for.
Also shows all the packs form past years

mtcards

A lot is just common sense on where it was bought from. I bought a box on ebay once many years ago, I now realize that it was stupid and that most boxes on ebay are resealed. Not worth the risk. But basically, as was mentioned before, the best way is to buy some of the packs that you know for sure are legit and compare them. When it comes to older packs, graded is the only way.

Toro

<< <i>I have bought resealed material before and realized it was obviously bad wax. The person had heated the seals on the back of the packs to the point where the wax from the pack had entirely bled through to the first card in the pack >>



What else do you need to know? Other than knowing how the backs are supposed to be sealed? There may be a few threads that mention it. Look up Summerof68....he has a few good threads that involve a lot of time and effort. However I do have a magic scanner that will beep if it's a bad pack.

cpamike

<< <i>However I do have a magic scanner that will beep if it's a bad pack. >>



Have you patented that thing yet? I could use one of those!!!

Toro

Wax Pack Scanner


He's been working on it for a little while. It works easily on early wax packs and will even scan through the plastic on GAI holders!

Toro

Hit Finder

For modern foil, it'll find the box hit for modern foil. Yes, Autos and Jersey galore!

cpamike

Toro, does it blink red when it comes in contact with resealed packs and disintegrate them?

I didn't realize they had one to find the auto and jersey cards. I guess that is what they've been using at Walmart to get all the good boxes.

summerof68

e64mtd,

There are 5 or 6 important characteristics to consider when evaluating a wax pack. And first and foremost being the pack must have PERFECTLY matching "roller lines". Roller lines are the machine's "fingerprint", so to speak, that was left on the wax pack when sealed at the Topps factory. Roller lines are the set of horizontal lines (very thin, linear depressions in the wax) that were left by the roller as it traveled horizontally across the back of the pack, and each line will align perfectly at the point where they come to meet at the vertical seal line. Similar to the process used in the field of ballistics when comparing the lines on a used bullet to the lines produced by a barrel of a gun.

When the two rear side flaps are opened on a wax pack the continuous, horizontal set of roller lines are of course broken. Now the challenge is for the resealer to secure all the seals, maintain tight corner folds, while at the same making sure the roller lines are once again perfectly aligned. Additionally the resealer must accomplish all of this without damaging, melting or compromising the integrity of the roller lines in any way. This obviously is a very difficult feat to accomplish. There are diligent resealers out there who can come very close to doing this but only the most sophisticated resealer can get the job done. Unfortunately there are individuals out there who have had decades of practice and have developed skills good enough to fool the best of us!

The point of my reply is that the corners on a wax pack can be factory tight and the seals can be 100% flush but neither of these attributes matter whatsoever if the roller lines are not in perfect alignment. Even if they are just a millimeter out of alignment then the pack is a reseal!!

e64mtd

Thanks "summerof68". I've been following your posts on pack resealing here lately and I am grateful for your input.

Toro

Summerof68....always great advice....now if we can get you to endorse the above scanners...we're in the money!

cpamike

<< <i>Summerof68....always great advice....now if we can get you to endorse the above scanners...we're in the money! >>



They will only work if Summer is the one using the scanners.

jeffcbay

e64mtd, sometimes people come on here asking about "how to spot resealed wax", when in fact they're trying to find out how to CREATE resealed wax. No offense, just buy smart.

e64mtd

No offense taken, but if we're all so concerned about buying resealed wax wouldn't it be to our benefit to understand, as much as possible, how to identify such material? The more information available on how spot a scam, the less likely an individual will be scammed. Considering the plethora of vintage wax buyers on here, I would think there should be a great deal of interest in becoming as knowledgeable as possible on the subject. Personally, I would like to see a step-by-step tutorial on what to look for when opening vintage wax. Is there any reason why someone like Steve Hart doesn't provide such information on his website? Is he worried that scammers may use this to their advantage?

bking

<< <i>No offense taken, but if we're all so concerned about buying resealed wax wouldn't it be to our benefit to understand, as much as possible, how to identify such material? The more information available on how spot a scam, the less likely an individual will be scammed. Considering the plethora of vintage wax buyers on here, I would think there should be a great deal of interest in becoming as knowledgeable as possible on the subject. Personally, I would like to see a step-by-step tutorial on what to look for when opening vintage wax. Is there any reason why someone like Steve Hart doesn't provide such information on his website? Is he worried that scammers may use this to their advantage? >>



Do a search here. You'll find all the information that would make up a guide like that.

e64mtd

Couldn't really find any good information other than that already provided by "summerof68" using the search query here. The question has been asked here before but it is mostly met with sarcasm and rude responses. I'm not sure why some think that providing more information to potential buyers may give an extra advantage to the scammers; strange logic indeed. Anyhow, I managed to track down an interview with Steve Hart on the topic for those wishing for more information:

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/vintage-pack-resealers-prey-on-uninformed-collectors/

Also, here's a link to an informational page that may help prevent some unsuspecting buyers from purchasing altered cards:

http://www.alteredcards.com/inspect.htm

miconelegacy

I hadn't read that interview with Steve Hart. Thanks for posting it.

summerof68

e64mtd,

Several months back Steve Hart stated in a blog on his website that he estimated 75% of all the raw vintage unopened material on ebay were reseals or altogether counterfeit. I too concur with this figure. And with a figure of 75% I ask why would anybody want to gamble against those odds. Furthermore a measurable portion of that 25% of the good packs (specifically cellos & racks) have already been "sequenced" and a percentage of the good wax packs unfortunately have been already a victim of "strategic cherry picking".

So I would strongly recommend not buying any raw wax on ebay and follow the lead of fellow member Jeffcbay and do your shopping at The Baseball Card Exchange. You will pay more but it will be well worth it because you will receive wax that has not been tampered with. Moreover the cellos and racks purchased from Steve will not have been "sequenced" while in his possession nor will the wax packs have been "cherry picked" while in Steve's possession.

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

<< <i> I'm not sure why some think that providing more information to potential buyers may give an extra advantage to the scammers; strange logic indeed. >>



Really? I like to share info as it helps collectors, but I know full well it also helps scammers. If a scammer is making packs and is unaware of what we look for...they will continue to make bad packs. Sadly, the uninformed get burned. If scammers know what buyers are looking for, they fix those areas and we all get taken.

e64mtd

Thanks again, "summerof68", you're a great asset to these boards and I look forward to reading more of your posts.

@ 1989FleerBillRipkencollector: If the buyer doesn't know what to look for period, the scammer doesn't have to work too hard, does he? By now, these scammers certainly know the shortcomings of their resealing efforts and if they could easily cover it up, I'm sure they would do so. If Steve Hart is not afraid to broadcast to the world some of the key points he looks for when trying to determine resealed wax, I'm not sure why anyone on these boards should be hesitant to divulge such information. As the cliche goes, knowledge is power. As a community that cares about each other getting swindled, I think we should be trying to arm each other with as much knowledge as possible.

thunderdan

Couldn't agree more with Jeff. I can learn all the traits to look for by reading a book or asking around, but I'm more than willing to pay a premium to Steve Hart who has far more experience looking at these things and is completely trustworthy. All those years of looking at pack after pack after pack is worth a hell of a lot.

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

<< <i>Thanks again, "summerof68", you're a great asset to these boards and I look forward to reading more of your posts.

@ 1989FleerBillRipkencollector: If the buyer doesn't know what to look for period, the scammer doesn't have to work too hard, does he? By now, these scammers certainly know the shortcomings of their resealing efforts and if they could easily cover it up, I'm sure they would do so. If Steve Hart is not afraid to broadcast to the world some of the key points he looks for when trying to determine resealed wax, I'm not sure why anyone on these boards should be hesitant to divulge such information. As the cliche goes, knowledge is power. As a community that cares about each other getting swindled, I think we should be trying to arm each other with as much knowledge as possible. >>



That's just it, key points. That has been done in this thread. Roller marks. You were wanting more and it appears many are hesitant. Sure there's more. But if all of the info was divulged we would be on the same playing field as the scammers and we would not have any 'secret knowledge', to protect ourselves. I wouldn't assume scammers would cover their mistakes if they could. Many make simple "common sense" mistakes that help us. i.e- buying wrappers on their selling account, using the wrong size gum etc. I'm only replying as you cannot understand why many are hesitant to speak on the matter. Maybe because it's all on this board already, not that your intentions are bad, but I dont know you and buying BBCKids book is just as easy. I used to speak out and spread info on hobby subjects. I remember some speaking out that I was helping scammers at times. I held your "knowledge is power" stance and usually do. That's all I have to say. Happy Hunting, Donovan

e64mtd

I'm not necessarily trying to be argumentative but your position seems highly illogical. This type of logic would be akin to thinking in the field of forensics we should only allow a very small amount of people access to investigative techniques, otherwise a murderer, for example, will have the upper hand. The inverse of this reasoning is, of course, true as our knowledge and ability to catch such people has greatly expanded in this field over the last number of years because of the eagerness of the individual to share information in regards to forensic analytical methodology. Also, I'm using an example here that supports an incomparably larger range of statistical combinations than simply resealing some wax paper. There are not infinite ways to reseal wax packs, which allow the re-sealers to stay one step ahead of the buyers. If the technique of re-sealing wax perfectly was possible, it would have been accomplished by someone at this point and nobody would bother purchasing the items because it would be impossible to distinguish between what was real and fake without opening the pack first.

This might cost me some Brownie points but from my extensive time lurking around here, before I decided to join the group in discussion, I've unfortunately noticed that a few people using this message board can be quite rude, sarcastic and spiteful seemingly without rhyme or reason. For that reason I would assume many generally helpful people are probably hesitant to provide important information because they've been conditioned by the message board through this sort of tone, which unfortunately also tends to create an air of elitism and implies secrets are okay and it is helpful to all to protect them. In my humble opinion, protecting these secrets within the confines of a small portion of the group only tends to hurt the larger group as the greater portion of people here are still very vulnerable to these predatory personalities. I certainly don't think sharing this knowledge would suddenly create a subset of ultra-talented pack re-sealers and I feel we should be sharing as much knowledge as possible about all less than desirable activities in the card collecting world. We pay PSA et al. to do our thinking for us when it comes to legitimate cards and packs but perhaps we should be helping one another as much as possible to be able to think for ourselves as well?

Nonetheless, we're likely at a dead-end here. I'm not too worried about it personally as I have whittled down my box/pack buying to one dealer whom I trust and I have a decent knowledge of what to look for when it comes to resealing. That being said, I'm sure there's more to learn and I am eager do to so. If anyone wants to help me expand my knowledge base please feel free to send me a PM.....that is if you think you can trust me! J/K

coinspacks

Here is a whole kit for sale lol

https://www.ebay.com/itm/225582277859?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=jRF7IMwxT6C&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=f7gT7U1lTRm&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

GroceryRackPack

Buyer beware: the gum is not included in the kit...

JolleyWrencher

I just say what I think and don't play favorites so please don't get offended when I disagree with anyone.

I am not saying anything bad about Steve, BBCE is legit for sure, but it only helps his business when he states how much counterfeit is on the market.

If you think it's illogical that posting info in public will make counterfeiting improve then we can't help you. There is solid logic there.

I get your point that you want to help each other but you can't deny counterfeit folks are trying to improve their scheme and sharing knowledge on how to spot a fake surely helps both crowds.

My 93/94 fleer ultra series 1 basketball rip was resealed very well on the cellophane but the 1 wax pack with the scoring kings card was the only one with corners unsealed. The card was off centered, and may be the original card from that pack, but it was obviously opened. I knew the risk, I gambled, and I lost, like many others.

There isn't many unboxed vintage left these days so unboxing vintage is going to be continuously tougher as time marches on and increasingly expensive.

I don't think there is more information on the subject than what you've already found regarding older wax. Modern isn't much different but it would be great if the card companies would switch up their methods of sealing often enough that the guys resealing would need to invest more to keep up. Cars nowadays use special tools for various jobs and mechanics often won't touch certain makes or models because they don't do enough business to warrant the cost of the tools needed.

ReggieCleveland

I'd like to add -- and it's something that I've noticed over the past decade and is my own theory so the 80 or so people in this thread that know more than me are welcome to chime in -- I've found that one of the most difficult things for a resealer to replicate are the secondary corner folds (or corner/top and corner/bottom folds). They may get good at matching up the roller marks and they may get good at replicating factory corner folds but I bet we can count on one hand the number of people that can do both of those things while simultaneously replicating perfectly tight and flat secondary folds underneath the corner folds.

Nothing is impossible but I believe this is the most difficult part to replicate and is also possibly the last refuge of detecting bad cellos.

I've also never understood the "keep the information to ourselves" strategy. That doesn't work in any other field. State issued Driver's Licenses are now nearly impossible to forge because they kept adding security features and teaching cops how to detect a fake ID. Should they have said "Well, they'll just figure out a way around each of our steps in an attempt to make these hard to replicate so we might as well not even try or make the info public?"

In every situation in recorded history, more information has always helped those being taken advantage of. Will the superstar forgers still crank out bad packs? Almost certainly. But will it give the advantage to collectors over all the knucklehead resealers out there ripping people off with mediocre work? Absolutely. Something tells me if the people that have all the information didn't have all the information they would be singing a different tune.

Arthur

JolleyWrencher

There is a reason it is illegal to disseminate certain weapons technologies which are not proprietary. It's not because they don't want civilians to better protect themselves. That wad the logic I used and you can argue it isn't quite the same.
What I like about this community is that we can state our line of thought without getting upset. As long the thread isn't completely hijacked then I think it's a wonderful thing. I'm always learning here, always.

I would welcome the card companies to change where the seal is positioned from 50/50 to 60/40 or other amounts within reason and other cheap ways of switching things up to make more signs for trying to spot counterfeit attempts. Having something on the inside which changes color the longer it is exposed to oxygen would be great as well.