I've seen acetone transform coins many times before...

TwoKopeiki

... but this surprised even me.

Posted this last week after cracking it out of an old ANACS holder:



Put it in the acetone bath and left it over the weekend. When I took it out this morning and ran a q-tip over it, I was surprised at how much grime came off.

A dozen of black q-tips later...



WHERE THE HECK DID MY TONING GO???



Although now it actually looks like a nice AU.

Zohar

How long is it reccomended to bathe the coin in acetone?

WWW

I learned the hard way about acetone and toned silver. I once tried to clean up an envelope toned 1910 Portuguese Escudo and had similar results.

TomB

I'm curious as to why you would have soaked that coin in acetone to begin with.

TwoKopeiki

<< <i>I'm curious as to why you would have soaked that coin in acetone to begin with. >>



It had black crystals of dirt in a few spots on the obv and rev.

To my knowledge, acetone should not dissolve natural silver toning (silver sulfide).

canadacolornut

I think MS70 would most likely have handled the dirt and crystals.

It ain't as if it were a precise science though. At least to me

theboz11

I have done acetone baths on a number of silver coins and never lost toning. I am shocked. I have had copper take on a bluish color but never changed NT silver.

JamesMurray

What if it wasn't NT ? Would acetone remove other than NT ? I'm in no way saying it wasn't , just interested to know.

lordmarcovan

It's still attractive, and if you removed some grime, so much the better.

I kinda liked that iridescence, though.

canadacolornut

What's the longest anybody has ever left a coin in acetone?

I've had a couple in it for about 9 hours, spread over two days, because some nitwit LACQUERED them!

Actually i know it was fair common practice in the past and the seller did warn me, but that's where I am
right now and it's STILL not all off there

coinpictures

*wince*

I wouldn't have messed with it, but that's just me. I'm deathly afraid of effing up toning, even if the process is theoretically harmless.

My personal opinion is that the after pictures look somewhat lifeless compared to the before pics.

Sorry.

theboz11

3 Days, because I forgot that they were in solution. Very bad PVC oil and residue on the coin to the point of visible green. I have since learned that MEK works specifically on PVC and dissolves the product. Very dangerous stuff for the liver though. Does nothing to the coins surface. If the AT was from bleach or similar product, I believe acetone takes it off. Anyone else back that up?

TwoKopeiki

I'm not too happy with the transformation myself. I'm suspecting the toning now, since I've used acetone baths as my standard pre-submission practice and it never messed with any of the color in the past. I would normally soak the coin for about an hour, then lightly run a q-tip over some of the grimy spots.

The plastic on the holder also had a slight yellowish hue. Perhaps a smoker's house for a few years?

Man, I really don't want to be paranoid about my acetone now

TwoKopeiki

<< <i>3 Days, because I forgot that they were in solution. Very bad PVC oil and residue on the coin to the point of visible green. I have since learned that MEK works specifically on PVC and dissolves the product. Very dangerous stuff for the liver though. does noting to the coins surface. If the AT was from bleach or similar product, I believe acetone takes it off. Anyone else back that up? >>



MEK is butatone? I don't think it's sold over the counter here.

ormandh

I am banking that when you used the qtips on the surface the friction took away the toning. I know that when you roll the qtip across the surface you are not causing friction, BUT with a soaking like that it is very likely that you softened the toning and it was inadvertently removed. You do not know how much dirt, grime, skin oils, etc... were on the surface BEFORE it was toned. Although I am not a coin doctor, I have had really great results cleaning pvc off of the surfaces without soaking. It usually takes more baths, but the results are the same. I had an 1803 US halfcent that was goopy with pvc residue and was able to preserve it with three applications.

I really think that you left it in WAY too long. Although, the toning on your coin did look "dirty", I do not think that it was due to AT.

-Dan

theboz11

Sitting here thinking back over the years, you said it was old ANACS holder. A common toning solution way back when(80's) was the stuff that you used to tone Lead in stained glass work, left a gray tone with blues in the recesses. Would not surprise me if that was AT.

MEK is Methyl Etheyl Ketone. You can order it online?

DorkGirl

Did the toning end up on the Q-tips?

Steve27

That "toning" was a chemical residue and not a true oxide (either NT or AT), which would not have been removed by the acetone.

RedneckHB

<< <i>I'm not too happy with the transformation myself. I'm suspecting the toning now, since I've used acetone baths as my standard pre-submission practice and it never messed with any of the color in the past. >>



I think the toning before was NT, and with you I prefer the before. Acetone will remove both NT and AT.

canadacolornut

Geez, I'm far from an expert but that sure looks like natural toning on the original to me.

Why the heck, and how in heck, would anybody doctor
an older coin like that in the first place-let alone so well that nobody but the PCGS graders would call it "artificial"

It's natural (or was). But what do I know since I've only been AT'd more times than a Democrat votes on election day....

1jester

<< <i>That "toning" was a chemical residue and not a true oxide (either NT or AT), which would not have been removed by the acetone. >>



I agree with this assessment. True toning won't be affected by acetone; however, surface contaminants often provide the toning we see on coins and that will be removed by acetone. I have had this happen a number of times, and it was surprising to me on some silver coins that had beautiful toning (such as the coin in question here). On two coins I bought expensively at auction which had luscious dark reds and blues, it all came off after an acetone bath! I refer to that as "smoke toning" because I'm pretty sure the coins sat in a smoker's house for decades, and after the acetone bath, it all went POOF! Actually, in the case of those two coins (and other similar ones), the layer of toning/contamination covered some flaws and wear on the coins, and though I believed them to be (and were sold as) uncirculated, the layer of contamination was hiding minimal wear on the high points, so what I ended up with was AU coins.

On the subject of acetone removing all toning, I don't believe that to be true. I bought a beautifully toned BU washington quarter from a prominent forum member here, and I later suspected the toning to be AT. I tried to remove it with every chemical I could find, including acetone, MS70 and even dip. Nothing worked! The toning was etched so far into the coin's surface it wouldn't come off. Definitely AT!! A ruined coin and a ruined relationship with the seller because I suspect he knew it was AT to begin with.

In any case, I believe it's best to conserve coins, and 2K did the right thing to treat this coin to an acetone bath. BTW, still a nice one, 2K!

Preussen

<< <i>That "toning" was a chemical residue and not a true oxide (either NT or AT), which would not have been removed by the acetone. >>

Bingo -Preussen

IloiloKano

<< <i>Acetone will remove both NT and AT. >>

No it won't. Acetone will not react with metals, metal sulfides or metal oxides, period.

Acetone dissolves petroleum products, such as plastics. It is a keytone solvent, the simplest form of the keytones. MEK (methyl ethyl keytone, a.k.a. butanone) is a more complex keytone, and it performs much the same functions as acetone, though it evaporates much more slowly (a plus) but it also poses a serious health risk if inhaled (a distinct negative), which is why it's use as an industrial solvent has become severely restricted.

PVC is a petroleum product, a plastic, specifically a thermoplastic polymer. This is why acetone (or MEK) is very effective in its removal. Both acetone and MEK actually dissolve or melt plastics. Hence, MEK is sometimes used to "weld" plastic pieces of scale model kits together.

True toning, whether artificial or natural, is combination of the outer metal layer with another chemical, commonly in the form of an oxide or sulfide, though other chemical combinations are possible. None of the keytone solvents will break those chemical bonds; however, if something is ON, rather than a PART OF, the coin, it of course can be dislodged.

I would investigate whether or not contamination of the acetone with something else could be a possibility. For example, on rare occasions I have placed some severely tarnished coins (so severe as to be aesthetically horrid) into a bath of acetone, to which I applied a few drops of a tarnish removal solution, specifically to perform a slow controlled removal of some (but not all) of the heavy tarnish. Could your acetone bath have accidentally become contaminated with something like that?

Secondly, I can attest to once having received a coin with a smoky (but not colored) 'toning', which I placed in a bath of acetone, and all of the smoky residue came off to reveal a large number of hairlines where the coin had been previously "cleaned", badly. In that one instance the honest seller immediately refunded my money. But that artificial toning was in fact a smoky residue applied in order to mask the hairline scratches, rather than true toning, whether artificial or natural.

So then I would question whether the color that was originally seen was not actually toning, but instead artificially applied color which passed the TPG grader's expert notice. I don't know the method by which it has been accomplished, but I do remember having read somewhere about "coin doctors" applying color to coins in some very creative ways. If I had to guess where I read it, I would probably guess it is somewhere in my copy of the PCGS published Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection. Perhaps such would be highly unlikely, but could it be a possibility?

The third question I would have relates to your comment "a dozen of black q-tips later"; that is, is it possible the q-tips were used with too much friction, such that you inadvertently… well, I'm sure you know where I'm going with this. I do not wish to offend, but is that a possibility?

I have to admit that the before picture looks very much like a naturally toned coin, so I would lean towards the acetone having become contaminated with some type of tarnish remover.

Ahmanfan

so I thought cleaned coins were not desired in collecting circles? does acetone not qualify? and when do you want to use acetone?

JamesMurray

<< <i>so I thought cleaned coins were not desired in collecting circles? does acetone not qualify? and when do you want to use acetone? >>



Good questions , apparantly it all depends on who is doing the cleaning. Having tried it myself following instructions to the letter i find it rarely does much of anything to a coin.

theboz11

No, acetone does not count. It does not affect the Metal, as noted. If you rub it dry, you have made it a "cleaned coin" otherwise No. Used to remove PVC Residue. I have also found that "Shout" laundry product removes Organics without affecting the surface either.

JamesMurray

Thats a better answer Theboz11 , thanks. I think a lot of misconception is involved with acetone , it doesnt clean a coin in the true sense of the word.