Well I don't mean to seem inquisitive but do we not all understand that market grading coins based on a standard of eye appeal is hardly what one would describe as "intellectually challenging?" I mean, let's face it, you send them a '55 DDO, and chances are it's going to come back a '55 DDO, at no extra charge. But, you send them something they actually have to "think" on, and that's going to cost you. Heck, a minimum wage job at McDonald's is more intellectually challenging than market grading coins. Hey, ya want fries with that? Get it together...
<< <i>Heck, a minimum wage job at McDonald's is more intellectually challenging than market grading coins. Hey, ya want fries with that? Get it together... >>
This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read here or anywhere else for that matter.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Charge a variety fee as usual, and instead of a reholdering fee, take a black sharpie and write on the slab what the variety is. Presto!!!! NO reholdering fee
Tounge in cheek but why not a sticker tied to the database of the coin (updated with the variety)?
Evidently, I'm not a very bright, little thing. Do you want to explain that? >>
So much for "expert" as defined by the photo's.
Actaully, there are two levels of variety attribution.
1. Those that the submitter has already identified by submitting it with an FS# on the submission form.
2. Those that the submitter has NOT already designated on the submission form.
Variety Attribution 1 merely requires validation which amounts to a "look up" in the CPG. 99% are "no brainers" whereas the other 1% require a decision to be made or at the very minimum, reference to some other publication.
Variety Attribution 2 involves a "what does this submitter "think" this one is" approach and as far as my submissions go, this type of submission just never happens. I know what mine are and always note it down.
So..............for $24, the attributer simply validates what the submitter already knows and has already done all the work on.
IMO, no brainer CPG FS validation should be $10 max. IF research is required then the $24 is not out of line.
BUT.........it's PCGS's company and they can charge whatever they want! Right?
Right!
So.............adding a $10 charge to an already silly "overcharge" as it is, will simply drive submitters away. Both variety attribution submitters AND regular submitters since the ONLY reason for a PCGS variety attributed slab is to participate in the registry. The other TPG's grade and attribute just as well but are half as expensive.
Yes, PCGS slabbed moderns bring more in the market place but then there's only one direction the company on the top of the heap can go.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
I am wondering if the creeping hikes in fees will end up causing moderately valued coins to not get graded due to the cost prohibitions. It may end up that mostly high value or low value coins get submitted. High value because the cost of a submission is a small fraction of the coin value and low value through bulk submissions. That could really distort the true population estimates out there.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>19lyds - exactly!! Part of the grading fee is putting it in a holder. That's already been paid for.
With this new fee there is not much of an advantage trying to find varieties already in PCGS graded holders. >>
Not clear if you beef is the attribution fee or the reholder fee. They could just as easily raised the price of attrubution to $34/coin without the reholder fee. >>
You're absolutely right sponge!
If we keep bellyaching they'll do exactly what they did with error submissions. Raise the price to $50! It is a free country and by golly, the number one grading service in the world can charge whatever they want for their Lexus slabs.
It's almost as if ................. they really don't want to do variety attribution, specifically for modern nothing coins. What better way to accomplish this than to charge the submitter more for the service than what the coin would reasonably resell for?
Whatever, I don't have to play and I certainly do not have to encourage others to play since it is a specialized area of coin collecting with a specialized audience.
Anybody wanna buy an unattributed 1958 Washington Type B in PCGS MS66? I'd crack it out but my "experience" (or is it inexperience) tells me it would only grade an MS65 if it even graded at all due to the toning AND the expense that the attribution would bring in the market.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>I am wondering if the creeping hikes in fees will end up causing moderately valued coins to not get graded due to the cost prohibitions. It may end up that mostly high value or low value coins get submitted. High value because the cost of a submission is a small fraction of the coin value and low value through bulk submissions. That could really distort the true population estimates out there. >>
Again, you are absolutely right sponge!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Evidently, I'm not a very bright, little thing. Do you want to explain that? >>
So much for "expert" as defined by the photo's.
Actaully, there are two levels of variety attribution.
1. Those that the submitter has already identified by submitting it with an FS# on the submission form.
2. Those that the submitter has NOT already designated on the submission form.
Variety Attribution 1 merely requires validation which amounts to a "look up" in the CPG. 99% are "no brainers" whereas the other 1% require a decision to be made or at the very minimum, reference to some other publication.
Variety Attribution 2 involves a "what does this submitter "think" this one is" approach and as far as my submissions go, this type of submission just never happens. I know what mine are and always note it down.
So..............for $24, the attributer simply validates what the submitter already knows and has already done all the work on.
IMO, no brainer CPG FS validation should be $10 max. IF research is required then the $24 is not out of line.
BUT.........it's PCGS's company and they can charge whatever they want! Right?
Right!
So.............adding a $10 charge to an already silly "overcharge" as it is, will simply drive submitters away. Both variety attribution submitters AND regular submitters since the ONLY reason for a PCGS variety attributed slab is to participate in the registry. The other TPG's grade and attribute just as well but are half as expensive.
Yes, PCGS slabbed moderns bring more in the market place but then there's only one direction the company on the top of the heap can go. >>
I totally agree with you!!
Awarded the coveted "You Suck" Award on 22 Oct 2010 for finding a 1942/1 D Dime in silver, and on 7 Feb 2011 Cherrypicking a 1914 MPL Cent on Ebay!
<< <i>No one has a gun to your head. And we aren't the ones bilking you. If you don't realize the value of having your coins graded by PCGS then don't do it. >>
It is not that I don't think there is value having coins "graded" by PCGS. Just not sure if there is any value having them "attributed" by PCGS, or maybe better said "is it the best bang for your buck to have PCGS attribute your coin?"
Let's look at the issue with an open mind. If you have the coin already graded by PCGS and you think it is listed in the CPG, you can submitt the slab to PCGS, pay $24 attribution fee plus $10 reholdering fee for a total of $34 plus postage and handling. If the variety is in the CPG the label will get an FS number, if the variety is not listed in the CPG then the label will read "Minor Variety" and PCGS will not tell you which variety it is.
-- OR --
If the coin is already graded by PCGS and you think it is a variety and you want to find out for sure which variety it is, you can send it to one of CONECA'S attributors for less then 25% of the fees charged by our host company and they will tell you not only which FS number is assigned to the coin but they will tell you what variety it is even if it is not listed in the CPG.
So for less money, I'm getting more information, guess which method I am using now. Just a side note, when Dr. James Wiles returns the coins, his notes list the PCGS certification numbers next to his observations. Yes, you can not use the information in a competetive set on the on line Registry but I dissagree with some of the Registry so I want to collect the way I want my collection to be anyhow.
Reminds me a bit of Jimmy McMillan's "The Rent Is Too Damn High"! Obviously, PCGS sets the prices. Last weekend, my daughter asked for her 21st birthday present to "swim with the dolphins" at SeaWorld. An hour later, we were out nearly $500 total cost to watch her hang with a couple dolphins in belly-high water for 45 minutes. Did I think the "rent was too damn high" for that 45 minutes ... you betcha. Was I pleased she did not ask me to send her to Vegas for the weekend to party with her friends. You know it.
I have one observation that perhaps DW can consider though. I have personally seen that the vast majority of these varieties in the series I watch out for (Wash quarters) are sub $100 coins. Especially the typical Ty B silver quarters from 1956-64. Probably the same for Kennedy Half Dollars and many other 20th century series. Perhaps in the future (when PCGS is far less busy), there might be "collectors tier" where young numismatists (heck even seniors or maybe even women - we could sure use more female collectors from what I have seen) can submit their varieties that book for under $100 in the CPG at a greatly reduced price in order to encourage coin collecting in these areas. Perhaps PCGS could even require these submittors to do it on line where advertisers on those pages could make up for some of the submission revenue loss. My point is ... I would love to see more happening out there to promote registry set collecting (especially variety collecting) ... maybe even only offering this reduced price to submittors who register these coins in their PCGS registry sets, or open a PCGS registry set as a condition to the discount, etc, etc., etc. Just something to think about. I know there would have to be more "terms and conditions" (we wouldn't want middle age men crying "reverse discrimination").
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
All these terms and sentences - but one sticks out to me. It seems implied or even stated in some comments that "bilking" is indeed happening, regardless of who is doing it. Who is doing it is another thing. Perhaps like the Radiohead song - "...you do it to yourself, you do, and that's why it really hurts..."
<< <i>Reminds me a bit of Jimmy McMillan's "The Rent Is Too Damn High"! Obviously, PCGS sets the prices. Last weekend, my daughter asked for her 21st birthday present to "swim with the dolphins" at SeaWorld. An hour later, we were out nearly $500 total cost to watch her hang with a couple dolphins in belly-high water for 45 minutes. Did I think the "rent was too damn high" for that 45 minutes ... you betcha. Was I pleased she did not ask me to send her to Vegas for the weekend to party with her friends. You know it.
Wondercoin >>
Frankly I would rather be out that $500 than having to worry about her at Vegas. She likely had a much more memorable experience and there isn't much trouble you can get in with dolphins. Vegas is another story.
Tir nam beann, nan gleann, s'nan gaisgeach ~ Saorstat Albanaich a nis!
I too would like to see more interest in variety collecting. I partisapate(sp) in all of the dimes complete variety sets and wish more would join in. Thru this forum I have learned that there are many varieties I never knew about. I had never heard of two feathers or 3 1/2 legs and such until some members posted here about them and I went out to the sets and looked at all of the Buffalo varieties there are! Amazing!
And yes, my whole complaint is that the cost for varities sometimes is more than the coin is worth. Since we put on the submission form exactly what the variety is.....it only takes a minute in the book to verify it......it's not like grading.
And another statement made a lot on this thread has been that "PCGS is the company and can do what they want" may well be true.
But everyone should realize that PCGS would be nothing if it were not for all of us collectors submitting coins. We are what keeps them going.
I would like to say, I am impressed by the fact that the president of a company would take the time out of his day to explain what seams logical. I do not think the price of the service needs any explanation.
Go try asking the leadership of your cable, internet or cell phone service providers why they have the billing practices that they do(for that matter try asking anyone employed by that company why and see how far you get).
I would like to say, I am impressed by the fact that the president of a company would take the time out of his day to explain what seams logical. I do not think the price of the service needs any explanation. Go try asking the leadership of your cable, internet or cell phone service providers why they have the billing practices that they do(for that matter try asking anyone employed by that company why and see how far you get).
"And yes, my whole complaint is that the cost for varities sometimes is more than the coin is worth."
If the cost is more then the coin is worth then logical choice is not to do it, unless you really want to play the registry game, or you have a long term collecting plan and hope that 10 years down the line you will recoup your costs and more when the time comes to sell. Or you collect coins and don't see them as a cash cow.
Since we put on the submission form exactly what the variety is.....it only takes a minute in the book to verify it......it's not like grading.
Actually it is most likely more time consuming then grading a coin. An experienced grader will take little or no time to determine a grade ,and realistically if you have to refer to a book it is going to take longer then a minute.
Also I think someone mentioned PCGS offer variety guarantee? if this is the case they are taking a risk by adding a variety. The difference in one variety to the next can be thousands of dollars. Sure they are the experts and should get the variety right but nothing done by humans can be guaranteed 100%, 100% of the time.
Time is money etc.. and PCGS has determined that adding a variety is only going to be worth their time if priced at $24. You have to remember that this isn't all profit for them as they will have to pay tax on that amount as well.
All in all I don't think it is too much money to charge.
Comments
Cheers,
Bob
<< <i>Don returns PM's. >>
And there is no need for the apostrophe above.
<< <i>
<< <i>Don returns PM's. >>
And there is no need for the apostrophe above.
"Above" is a preposition.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Don returns PM's. >>
And there is no need for the apostrophe above.
"Above" is a preposition.
"Above" is being used as an adverb above.
(Checkmate)
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Don returns PM's. >>
And there is no need for the apostrophe above.
"Above" is a preposition.
"Above" is being used as an adverb above.
(Checkmate) >>
Doh! Once again, in over my head!
<< <i>Heck, a minimum wage job at McDonald's is more intellectually challenging than market grading coins. Hey, ya want fries with that? Get it together... >>
This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read here or anywhere else for that matter.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Tounge in cheek but why not a sticker tied to the database of the coin (updated with the variety)?
<< <i>
<< <i>So much for the old guy and the hammer. >>
Evidently, I'm not a very bright, little thing. Do you want to explain that? >>
So much for "expert" as defined by the photo's.
Actaully, there are two levels of variety attribution.
1. Those that the submitter has already identified by submitting it with an FS# on the submission form.
2. Those that the submitter has NOT already designated on the submission form.
Variety Attribution 1 merely requires validation which amounts to a "look up" in the CPG. 99% are "no brainers" whereas the other 1% require a decision to be made or at the very minimum, reference to some other publication.
Variety Attribution 2 involves a "what does this submitter "think" this one is" approach and as far as my submissions go, this type of submission just never happens. I know what mine are and always note it down.
So..............for $24, the attributer simply validates what the submitter already knows and has already done all the work on.
IMO, no brainer CPG FS validation should be $10 max. IF research is required then the $24 is not out of line.
BUT.........it's PCGS's company and they can charge whatever they want! Right?
Right!
So.............adding a $10 charge to an already silly "overcharge" as it is, will simply drive submitters away. Both variety attribution submitters AND regular submitters since the ONLY reason for a PCGS variety attributed slab is to participate in the registry. The other TPG's grade and attribute just as well but are half as expensive.
Yes, PCGS slabbed moderns bring more in the market place but then there's only one direction the company on the top of the heap can go.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>19lyds - exactly!! Part of the grading fee is putting it in a holder. That's already been paid for.
With this new fee there is not much of an advantage trying to find varieties already in PCGS graded holders.
Not clear if you beef is the attribution fee or the reholder fee. They could just as easily raised the price of attrubution to $34/coin without the reholder fee. >>
You're absolutely right sponge!
If we keep bellyaching they'll do exactly what they did with error submissions. Raise the price to $50! It is a free country and by golly, the number one grading service in the world can charge whatever they want for their Lexus slabs.
It's almost as if ................. they really don't want to do variety attribution, specifically for modern nothing coins. What better way to accomplish this than to charge the submitter more for the service than what the coin would reasonably resell for?
Whatever, I don't have to play and I certainly do not have to encourage others to play since it is a specialized area of coin collecting with a specialized audience.
Anybody wanna buy an unattributed 1958 Washington Type B in PCGS MS66? I'd crack it out but my "experience" (or is it inexperience) tells me it would only grade an MS65 if it even graded at all due to the toning AND the expense that the attribution would bring in the market.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I am wondering if the creeping hikes in fees will end up causing moderately valued coins to not get graded due to the cost prohibitions. It may end up that mostly high value or low value coins get submitted. High value because the cost of a submission is a small fraction of the coin value and low value through bulk submissions. That could really distort the true population estimates out there. >>
Again, you are absolutely right sponge!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So much for the old guy and the hammer. >>
Evidently, I'm not a very bright, little thing. Do you want to explain that? >>
So much for "expert" as defined by the photo's.
Actaully, there are two levels of variety attribution.
1. Those that the submitter has already identified by submitting it with an FS# on the submission form.
2. Those that the submitter has NOT already designated on the submission form.
Variety Attribution 1 merely requires validation which amounts to a "look up" in the CPG. 99% are "no brainers" whereas the other 1% require a decision to be made or at the very minimum, reference to some other publication.
Variety Attribution 2 involves a "what does this submitter "think" this one is" approach and as far as my submissions go, this type of submission just never happens. I know what mine are and always note it down.
So..............for $24, the attributer simply validates what the submitter already knows and has already done all the work on.
IMO, no brainer CPG FS validation should be $10 max. IF research is required then the $24 is not out of line.
BUT.........it's PCGS's company and they can charge whatever they want! Right?
Right!
So.............adding a $10 charge to an already silly "overcharge" as it is, will simply drive submitters away. Both variety attribution submitters AND regular submitters since the ONLY reason for a PCGS variety attributed slab is to participate in the registry. The other TPG's grade and attribute just as well but are half as expensive.
Yes, PCGS slabbed moderns bring more in the market place but then there's only one direction the company on the top of the heap can go. >>
I totally agree with you!!
Successful BST Transactions!SIconbuster, Meltdown, Mission16, slothman2000, RGjohn, braddick, au58lover, allcoinsrule, commemdude, gerard, lablade, PCcoins, greencopper, kaz, tydye, cucamongacoin, mkman123, SeaEaglecoins, Doh!, AnkurJ, Airplanenut, ArizonaJack, JJM,Tee135,LordMarcovan, Swampboy, piecesofme, Ahrensdad,
<< <i>No one has a gun to your head. And we aren't the ones bilking you. If you don't realize the value of having your coins graded by PCGS then don't do it. >>
It is not that I don't think there is value having coins "graded" by PCGS. Just not sure if there is any value having them "attributed" by PCGS, or maybe better said "is it the best bang for your buck to have PCGS attribute your coin?"
Let's look at the issue with an open mind. If you have the coin already graded by PCGS and you think it is listed in the CPG, you can submitt the slab to PCGS, pay $24 attribution fee plus $10 reholdering fee for a total of $34 plus postage and handling. If the variety is in the CPG the label will get an FS number, if the variety is not listed in the CPG then the label will read "Minor Variety" and PCGS will not tell you which variety it is.
-- OR --
If the coin is already graded by PCGS and you think it is a variety and you want to find out for sure which variety it is, you can send it to one of CONECA'S attributors for less then 25% of the fees charged by our host company and they will tell you not only which FS number is assigned to the coin but they will tell you what variety it is even if it is not listed in the CPG.
So for less money, I'm getting more information, guess which method I am using now. Just a side note, when Dr. James Wiles returns the coins, his notes list the PCGS certification numbers next to his observations. Yes, you can not use the information in a competetive set on the on line Registry but I dissagree with some of the Registry so I want to collect the way I want my collection to be anyhow.
Just my two cents worth.
I have one observation that perhaps DW can consider though. I have personally seen that the vast majority of these varieties in the series I watch out for (Wash quarters) are sub $100 coins. Especially the typical Ty B silver quarters from 1956-64. Probably the same for Kennedy Half Dollars and many other 20th century series. Perhaps in the future (when PCGS is far less busy), there might be "collectors tier" where young numismatists (heck even seniors or maybe even women - we could sure use more female collectors from what I have seen) can submit their varieties that book for under $100 in the CPG at a greatly reduced price in order to encourage coin collecting in these areas. Perhaps PCGS could even require these submittors to do it on line where advertisers on those pages could make up for some of the submission revenue loss. My point is ... I would love to see more happening out there to promote registry set collecting (especially variety collecting) ... maybe even only offering this reduced price to submittors who register these coins in their PCGS registry sets, or open a PCGS registry set as a condition to the discount, etc, etc., etc. Just something to think about. I know there would have to be more "terms and conditions" (we wouldn't want middle age men crying "reverse discrimination").
Wondercoin
Eric
<< <i>Reminds me a bit of Jimmy McMillan's "The Rent Is Too Damn High"! Obviously, PCGS sets the prices. Last weekend, my daughter asked for her 21st birthday present to "swim with the dolphins" at SeaWorld. An hour later, we were out nearly $500 total cost to watch her hang with a couple dolphins in belly-high water for 45 minutes. Did I think the "rent was too damn high" for that 45 minutes ... you betcha. Was I pleased she did not ask me to send her to Vegas for the weekend to party with her friends. You know it.
Wondercoin >>
Frankly I would rather be out that $500 than having to worry about her at Vegas. She likely had a much more memorable experience and there isn't much trouble you can get in with dolphins. Vegas is another story.
I too would like to see more interest in variety collecting. I partisapate(sp) in all of the dimes complete variety sets and wish more would join in. Thru this forum I have learned that there are many varieties I never knew about. I had never heard of two feathers or 3 1/2 legs and such until some members posted here about them and I went out to the sets and looked at all of the Buffalo varieties there are! Amazing!
And yes, my whole complaint is that the cost for varities sometimes is more than the coin is worth. Since we put on the submission form exactly what the variety is.....it only takes a minute in the book to verify it......it's not like grading.
And another statement made a lot on this thread has been that "PCGS is the company and can do what they want" may well be true.
But everyone should realize that PCGS would be nothing if it were not for all of us collectors submitting coins. We are what keeps them going.
You know it ... I spent the $500 last weekend and she had the time of her life. Those dolphins need to get a Union like the NFL players have!!
Wondercoin
Go try asking the leadership of your cable, internet or cell phone service providers why they have the billing practices that they do(for that matter try asking anyone employed by that company why and see how far you get).
"And yes, my whole complaint is that the cost for varities sometimes is more than the coin is worth."
If the cost is more then the coin is worth then logical choice is not to do it, unless you really want to play the registry game, or you have a long term collecting plan and hope that 10 years down the line you will recoup your costs and more when the time comes to sell. Or you collect coins and don't see them as a cash cow.
Since we put on the submission form exactly what the variety is.....it only takes a minute in the book to verify it......it's not like grading.
Actually it is most likely more time consuming then grading a coin. An experienced grader will take little or no time to determine a grade ,and realistically if you have to refer to a book it is going to take longer then a minute.
Also I think someone mentioned PCGS offer variety guarantee? if this is the case they are taking a risk by adding a variety. The difference in one variety to the next can be thousands of dollars. Sure they are the experts and should get the variety right but nothing done by humans can be guaranteed 100%, 100% of the time.
Time is money etc.. and PCGS has determined that adding a variety is only going to be worth their time if priced at $24. You have to remember that this isn't all profit for them as they will have to pay tax on that amount as well.
All in all I don't think it is too much money to charge.