Stupid newbie question - don't read or reply if easily angered

TheTalkingWalnut

This isn't Sternfannetwork, for Pete's sake.....

Let's assume that I've been out of collecting coins for the last 30 years and that I'm a little confused by the recent commemoratives, ASEs and whatnots from the past 10 years or so. Can someone summarize the relative appeals, versions, etc of these things that everybody seems to be talking about on the boards these days? Like what are 2007 W's? Do they command a premium and if so, why? Do these types of things lose their premiums if in less than BU condition? Where do you (or where did one) sign up to buy these from the Mint? Are some versions as rare as say a 1909S-VBD or are there only minor variations in rarities? Any non-wiseass replies are welcomed.


Mr Walnut

Weiss

Don't take offense or reply if easily angered, but...


You've asked for a summary. If your intention is to educate yourself, why ask for a summary? If your intention is to profit from these pieces, a summary is going to be just enough rope to hang yourself.


There is a SEARCH function at the top left of the forum screen. Try entering a few key words, or click on the "advanced" link next to the search function. Try searching on 2007-w , for example. Research what items you're most interested in. When you compile a list of questions, search on those questions, too, because it's likely someone else has already asked them.

If you have specific questions that you can't find answers for, try asking them on the US coin forum.

PinkFloyd

The last 10 years or so--kind of starting with the state quarter series--has been an interesting period. Lots of changing reverse series, lots of new, products, etc. Though it's been exciting, I think, many of the designs have been lacking, and these new products have diluted down the market quite a bit. Market dilution, high metal prices, and in some respects, poor designs, have led to some of the lowest mintage coins in years (namely, the First Spouse Gold and Platinum Eagle coins).

As an aside, with precious metal prices going ever higher, I think that many of the less desirable/high mintage moderns with PM content will get melted.

To answer the specifics, in 2006, the Mint added another issue type to the Silver Eagle and Gold Eagle Coins. These coins have a burnished finish and have the "W" mintmark. They came in special mint packaging. The mintages on these things were leaps and bounds lower than their bullion counterparts and a bit lower than the proofs of the same years (for example, they struck 20 million bullion silver eagles in 2008, but only ~500,000 Ws!) Because of this disparity, they are a popular way to collect the AGEs/ASEs. They produced W AGEs/ASEs in 06, 07, and 08. For various reasons, they were not struck in 09 or 10, but they look to be making a comeback this year (though probably not fractional gold). They will be available from the US Mint directly sometime in 2011. You won't need to buy from a dealer.

As far as how the 06/07/08s are sold today (on ebay for example), they are generally offered in the original Mint packaging or in slabbed (graded) packaging. Just watch for spots that have developed on the coin in either type of packaging (unfortunately, somewhat common for the ASEs.)

And as for commemoratives, they have--in general-- not been fairing well if you are interested in good investments. They suffer from not being part of a specific series and usually do not have a huge collector base. Though there are exceptions--like the Jackie Robinson commem. Many of the commems made in the last few decades are now selling for close to spot.

Hopefully that helps. There are folks who have been into this far longer than I have on these boards, but I don't think I'm terribly off track. Keep in mind that this is just a very basic summary, and it's only a starting point to do more homework.

TheTalkingWalnut

Thanks, Pink. That's just what I was looking for.

derryb

Mintage and graded population are everything to price. For example, look at charts for 2008 W unc. gold eagles.

pitboss

Check the site usmint.gov for availability on the 2011 W silver eagles

TheTalkingWalnut

I'm going to give a baseball card analogy: let's say that "the book" says that a 1965 Hank Aaron is worth 100 bucks, and a 1965 Joe Shlabotnik is worth 10. An implication of that would be that if I walked into a shop, or a show, or the BST with 10 Joe Shlabotniks I could easily trade them for one Hank. But my 35 years of collecting cards tells me that if someone actually tried that it would not turn out very well for the guy with the Shlabotniks.

Here's a real life example of a slightly different sort: before I met him my business partner, who was a huge stamp collector, realized that there was potentially a lot of money to be made when the USPS created the "Black Cowboy" stamp error and recall. The USPS was limiting the rare error versions to 1 per collector in a sort of lottery fashion, so my partner got 10 money orders and sent in 10 orders, one in each of his employee's names. I think 5 people got their orders accepted and the other 5 got their money orders returned. Of course the secretaries who won couldn't have cared less about the stamp orders; they were just straw men for my partner, who was tickled to have gotten an additional 4 rare sheets.

I don't think that W's and commems are going to be my cup of tea, but I'm trying to be a little more street smart regarding these ASEs and AGEs that people are always posting about. In light of the two analogies I wrote about above, I don't want to pay Aaron prices for Joe Schmoe level coins, and I don't think I have the interest to buy things speculatively from the mint. I bought some unslabbed ASEs for 75% of melt and some time in the future I may have the opportunity to buy more. I'm happy to keep them as buillion (sp) and who knows what will happen if/when silver hits 50 an oz.

Thanks again for the responses and suggestions.

BBN

supply and demand. Prices go up for coins people want. If you're simply wanting bullion then avoid the keys. I stack ASEs and 1/4 ounce AGEs. I don't pay attention to the date. I look for the best deal.

CaptHenway

Though it is not perfect, I would strongly suggest that you get a 2012 Red Book when they come out in a few weeks and re-acquaint yourself with it.
TD

jmski52

Let's assume that I've been out of collecting coins for the last 30 years and that I'm a little confused by the recent commemoratives, ASEs and whatnots from the past 10 years or so. Can someone summarize the relative appeals, versions, etc of these things that everybody seems to be talking about on the boards these days?

It's pretty much what Weiss and Pink Floyd have already indicated.

The Modern Commems were re-started in 1982, and in a typical year there might any number of various commemorative denominations issued. Eric Jordan's book, "Modern Commemorative Coins" is available on Amazon and would be a good starting point to get familiar with the issues. You might also want to pick up a Redbook.

There have been American Silver Eagles issued with no mintmark, with "P" mintmarks, with "W" mintmarks, and with "S" mintmarks. Early on, the "no mintmark" bullion coins were made in Philly, but since 2000 they have been made in West Point. Early on, the Proofs were made in San Francisco with an "S", but from 1993 through 1999 they were made in Philly with a "P", and since then they've been made in West Point with a "W". The special Reverse Proof that was included in the 25th Anniversary 3-coin set was a "P". From 2006 through 2008, the Mint made some low mintage "collector bullion" versions that featured a special burnished or "satin" finish and had a "W" mintmark.

The same basic pattern of mintmarks and finishes were followed in the American Gold Eagle and American Platinum Eagle series.

The "W" burnished versions were sold directly to collectors by the Mint and were sold at a premium in Mint Packaging. The regular bullion coins which have higher mintages are sold at much lower premiums through the Mint's Authorized Distributors. Until the "W" burnished versions were produced, the scarcer coins were usually, but not always found in the Proofs. The burnished "W" coins were all "minted to demand" which meant that the Mint didn't make a ton of them all at once, but would instead make a small run and then evaluate demand. In most cases, that meant one, or two or three smaller production runs, which kept collectors guessing about mintages right up to the end of the year. Because the burnished "W" coins were sold at higher premiums and because of the dilution effect of too many choices and too little money, most of the burnished Silver Eagles, Gold Eagles and Platinum Eagles are the lowest mintages in their respective series.

Like what are 2007 W's?

They could be referring to Silver Eagles, Gold Eagles, Platinum Eagles, or even some Commems that were produced at West Point in 2007.

Do they command a premium and if so, why? Do these types of things lose their premiums if in less than BU condition? Where do you (or where did one) sign up to buy these from the Mint?

Heck yes, they command premiums! The mintages are pretty low for many of the burnished "W" coins, and many of them are "keys" to the series, and semi-keys. Since they were all specially-handled and supplied in capsules in a case or a pouch, they are mostly all higher grade, and a coin that is lesser in grade is the anomaly and won't command as much premium but it will still be considered scarce, so it won't lose all of its premium by any means. These coins had to be ordered directly from the Mint, generally off the Mint's website.

Are some versions as rare as say a 1909S-VBD or are there only minor variations in rarities?

There were about 484,000 or so 09-S vdbs minted. The scarcest Silver Eagle is the Special 1995-W Proof that was included in the 10th Anniversary Set that scumbag Phillip Deihl forced collectors to buy that included all of the Gold Eagles just in order to obtain the Special "W" Proof that has a mintage of 30,125 and runs around $3,000 these days. The next lowest mintage ASE is the 2006-P Reverse Proof from the 25th Anniversary Set which had a mintage of 250,000. Next would be the "P" mintmarked 1994 Proof at 372,168 and so it goes...The "W" burnished ASEs are low mintage, but there are other Silver Eagles with lower mintages, mostly some of the earlier Proofs.

The scarcest Gold Eagle is now the 2008-W 1/4 oz. burnished $10 denomination with a mintage of only 8,883. It originally sold for $295.95 and is selling now for $1,100 to $1,200. If you really like scarcity, the 1/2 oz. 2008-W burnished $50 Platinum Eagle is the lowest mintage Plat with a mintage of 2,253. Since there aren't many Plat collectors yet, the premiums on Platinum Eagles aren't as significant except for the deepest keys. It's really in the Gold Eagle series that the burnished coins have garnered the most impressive premiums. I'm guessing that gold is the sweet spot for collectors who want to commit the money.

After many years of over-production and of too many varieties, in 2009 the Mint decided to drop most of the fractional and "collector issues" in both gold and platinum. Both series still continue, but in with only abbreviated offerings compared to recent years.

In the meantime, there are still commemorative coins being produced in both silver and gold, in addition to the "Gold Spouse" series of 1/2 oz. .999 fineness commemoratives. The Gold Spouse series started with reasonable support, but sales have dropped off in the past 2 years such that some of the currently available coins will be low mintage coins. Whether there will be demand to drive the premiums in the future is anybody's guess, but I would imagine so in the long run.

Again, Eric Jordan's book does a slam-bang job of laying out most of this information in a very instructive format. Other than this brief summary, there are several threads that re-surface in the Coin Forum that are many hundreds of pages long in which all of these facts have been massaged, digested, re-hashed, analyzed and regurgitated time and again. It makes for great dialog and is really a benefit in picking the winners.

Don't worry, there's more.

PinkFloyd

I second the recommendation for Eric Jordan's "Modern Commemorative Coins." If you're delving into the realm of moderns, this is a must buy. For some of the stuff that happened after the book was released, read through ericj's thread in the coin forum. There are a host of other interesting threads concerning moderns (recently, the Buchanan's Liberty sellout thread, and the APMEX America the Beautiful thread.....though with the later, you really are better off just asking someone for a summary... )

Top notch summary, jmski52.